Will this Red Macro Algae be good for nutrient export?

[pammy]

Hello. I've tried chaeto in my sump twice, and it didn't do well and ended up dying. I think it's because there is too little flow in the very small section I have in my sump where I placed it. I decided to pile up some rock rubble in that section to try to have a predator-free zone for pod reproduction. Do I need to light the sump just for the pods? (I'm guessing no). In my display, I have red macro algae that popped up on my live rock. (see pictures below). I set up my tank in May, and in July, the red macro algae didn't even exist yet. The attached picture is from November. I love this red macro algae and think it is really pretty, and grows pretty fast. I have to trim it down by about 50%, every two weeks or so. Is this macro algae good for nutrient export like Chaeto ??

Thanks!
Pam

[CarmieJo]

Hi Pam,

I think if you have to trim it that often that it is good for nutrient export.

[Amphibious]

Absolutely good for nutrient export. You could give it to other hobbyists, too.

[pammy]

Thanks Carmie and Amhphibious. I had never thought of giving any away, because it actually is attached by a small spot, to my live rock. It's not floating freely in my display. When I trim it back, plenty of small pieces get away from me, and it has never attached or grown anywhere else in my display or sump, so I assumed it would never just grown by placing a handful of it in a sump like chaeto. That would be a good experiment though! I'd rather give it away then throw it out if others would want it.

Thanks.
Pam

[rroselavy]

Hello. I've tried chaeto in my sump twice, and it didn't do well and ended up dying. I think it's because there is too little flow in the very small section I have in my sump where I placed it.

You and I have nearly the same sump (with the same slow-flow chamber), and I have been successfully growing Chaeto in there for over 2 months. I started with a small tight ball of angry chaeto, and it loosened and grew to fill the whole chamber. I then harvested half, and it is now about 3/4 filling up the chamber again.

I chose to light it from the side, making sure to use a fixture in the 5000-6500k range for optimal growth. You can see my setup using this link.

I do have to turn the chaeto by hand every 2-3 days to make sure all sides get exposure. There are anthropods (obtained from ipsf.com) and more recently copepods that I have seen in there.

I decided to pile up some rock rubble in that section to try to have a predator-free zone for pod reproduction. Do I need to light the sump just for the pods? (I'm guessing no).

No, and you do not want to light it if you wish to encourage growth of sponges. My first two chambers (after the skimmer) are filled with LR rubble, and I see several areas of sponges, but all the critters are in the Chaeto.

In my display, I have red macro algae that popped up on my live rock. (see pictures below). I set up my tank in May, and in July, the red macro algae didn't even exist yet. The attached picture is from November. I love this red macro algae and think it is really pretty, and grows pretty fast.

That's fantastic. I'll take some of your export!

I am planning a Display Refugium to hook in line with my sump (waiting for ELOS, or Euro-Reef to come out with their Nano), and your Red algae (form of Gracilaria or Halymenia?) is one of the most attractive species I've seen. You can see a beautiful picture of the same red algae in Calfo&Fenner's Reef Invertebrates book (page 46). Unfortunately, the image has no caption, so I am at a loss to identify the species.

As far as favorable algae is concerned, my LR came with a Halimeda species and a Chlorodesmis species. (Turtle Grass). Perhaps not as innocuous as Chaeto or Gracilaria, but interesting if kept if controlled.

I have to trim it down by about 50%, every two weeks or so.

That's a really good growth rate. My Chaeto is doubling every 4-5 weeks or so.

[Bobby2]

I have some of this macro too. It is very nice. the common name for it is dragon's tongue. as far as nutrient export I don't think it is better than chaeto. the dragon's tongue has little mass it almost feels like mush and it feels slimy. not much to the structure. so I (Think) it dose not remove much but it has to remove some and thats better than nothing. plus it looks really cool.

[Bobby2]

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_bF4lc6...4320lo_000.jpg

red halymenia

[pammy]

Hi Rroselavy. Thanks for the information. Do you have anything to add flow in the chamber with the chaeto? I thought my problem with the chaeto, was either not enough flow, or more likely, I had a 6500k watt bulb (spiral bulb with reflector like recommended on Melev's site) on the side of my sump, lighting up the last chamber (before the top-off reservoir). So, the light had to go through the auto-topoff water before it hit the chaeto, and I thought that, it might be losing too much light before it hits the chaeto. The light you are using is really cool. I wanted to avoid cutting up the cover to light the chaeto from the top, so your light would be a good option.

You have rubble in the first chamber where the water exits the skimmer? Did you remove the filter sock to fit rubble in there?

I do have a ton of pineapple sponges in my sump. You mentioned not lighting the sump to encourage sponge growth. What is the benefit of having these sponges?

How much skinmate does your elos skimmer produce a day? What setting have you found the best? I don't really quite get how to set a skimmer to run optimally. Right now, my silencer is barely screwed on, and my clamp is unscrewed all the way, so I have the most flow running through the venturi. My gate is all the way open. I don't get a lot of skinmate. Maybe 1/4" in my collection cup a day, very dark wet skinmate.

Thanks!
Pam

You and I have nearly the same sump (with the same slow-flow chamber), and I have been successfully growing Chaeto in there for over 2 months. I started with a small tight ball of angry chaeto, and it loosened and grew to fill the whole chamber. I then harvested half, and it is now about 3/4 filling up the chamber again.

I chose to light it from the side, making sure to use a fixture in the 5000-6500k range for optimal growth. You can see my setup using this link.

I do have to turn the chaeto by hand every 2-3 days to make sure all sides get exposure. There are anthropods (obtained from ipsf.com) and more recently copepods that I have seen in there.



No, and you do not want to light it if you wish to encourage growth of sponges. My first two chambers (after the skimmer) are filled with LR rubble, and I see several areas of sponges, but all the critters are in the Chaeto.

That's fantastic. I'll take some of your export!

I am planning a Display Refugium to hook in line with my sump (waiting for ELOS, or Euro-Reef to come out with their Nano), and your Red algae (form of Gracilaria or Halymenia?) is one of the most attractive species I've seen. You can see a beautiful picture of the same red algae in Calfo&Fenner's Reef Invertebrates book (page 46). Unfortunately, the image has no caption, so I am at a loss to identify the species.

As far as favorable algae is concerned, my LR came with a Halimeda species and a Chlorodesmis species. (Turtle Grass). Perhaps not as innocuous as Chaeto or Gracilaria, but interesting if kept if controlled.



That's a really good growth rate. My Chaeto is doubling every 4-5 weeks or so.

[rroselavy]

Hi Rroselavy. Thanks for the information. Do you have anything to add flow in the chamber with the chaeto? I thought my problem with the chaeto, was either not enough flow...

I make sure the chamber's overflow valve (to the sump proper) is open all the way, but do not add any flow to the chamber. I have read that another ELOS owner pumps water into the chamber, somehow having the water flow upwards to tumble the chaeto, but I do not see how chaeto could tumble in such a small chamber. My Chaeto grows into a brick when I have to trim it. No room to tumble. I just checked it last night, and I'm just about there.

The only problem with the slow-flow and Chaeto growth is the accumulation of particle debris (organic matter) in the chamber. The heavier particles stay at the bottom (unless stirred), with the lightest particles staying suspended until they drain out of the chamber. The particles can obstruct light, and therefore slow growth. When I do a WC, I make sure to stick a powerhead in the chamber to suck out a large part of the debris.

From what I've read, some macros, such as your Halymenia, grow better with more flow...so they probably would not grow as well in the chamber without augmenting flow.

...I had a 6500k watt bulb (spiral bulb with reflector like recommended on Melev's site) on the side of my sump, lighting up the last chamber (before the top-off reservoir). So, the light had to go through the auto-topoff water before it hit the chaeto, and I thought that, it might be losing too much light before it hits the chaeto.

I tried the Melev method at first, but using a Trouble Light fixture (with a 5700k flourescent flood bulb) that was hung above the chamber (aiming downward) using some mounting squares with zip ties to securely hold the fixture and 18/3 gauge cord in place. The reflector of the bulb cracked as soon as a small droplet hit it, and I soon thereafter abandoned that plan. Perhaps I hung it too low.

Another possibility would be a Trouble Light fixture (mounted above in the "beams" of the stand)) coupled with a Super Bright LED bulb (Model E27-CW8) that has an Aluminum reflector and a plastic lense. This would give you 7w of high powered 5000k LED light, brighter than my fixture - without the risk of cracking.

The light you are using is really cool. I wanted to avoid cutting up the cover to light the chaeto from the top, so your light would be a good option.

The fixture I have is working well, and fits snugly between the stand base and the front of the sump, but it has one problem. The on/off switch is not sealed, so water can get through to the interior if splashed on top. I recently confirmed this (by accident) when I forgot to move the fixture when doing a WC. My tubing slipped and spilled water on the fixture, and my GFCI promptly cut the power. Scary! The fixture was unharmed after it dried out, and I now have a cover for the switch - and also a renewed urgency to remove the fixture when doing WC.

If you lit from above (using the aforementioned bulb) , you would not have as much concern about splashing.

You have rubble in the first chamber where the water exits the skimmer? Did you remove the filter sock to fit rubble in there?

I used the sock initially, but haven't since. I am concerned that a sock may trap too many critters who are floating through the sump, and also would require extra-duty to keep it clean so it does not become a nutrient sink. A sock on the overflow drain tube seems like a more effective idea to me anyway.

Instead, I have the sock chamber filled with LR, and have a fine mesh bag of Borneman's Carbon directly below the skimmer outlet.

For build-up. I use a Maxijet 1200 pump and a small length of silicone tubing on the intake to vacuum out the bottom of the sump.

I do have a ton of pineapple sponges in my sump. You mentioned not lighting the sump to encourage sponge growth. What is the benefit of having these sponges?

Sponges are very effective living filters. Your system benefits from having them, providing that they do not die off. If you are promoting sponge growth, you do not want to disturb the LR rubble (especially not expose it to air) as I have read that sponges can die off pretty quickly when exposed.

How much skinmate does your elos skimmer produce a day? What setting have you found the best? I don't really quite get how to set a skimmer to run optimally. Right now, my silencer is barely screwed on, and my clamp is unscrewed all the way, so I have the most flow running through the venturi. My gate is all the way open. I don't get a lot of skinmate. Maybe 1/4" in my collection cup a day, very dark wet skinmate.

The amount of skimmate you get is a function of how efficient your skimmer is AND how heavy your nutrients (in the form of DOM). My bioload (and thus my feedings) are still pretty light, so I do not see much action (like 1/4" of medium color skimmate per week!). I am not sure how good of a Skimmer the NS500 is (I have read that the Euro-Reef equivalent kicks its butt), but it seems very well built. I would love to switch it out for a different skimmer for comparison.

My gate is 1/2 closed. I've experimented with various settings, but none seem to make much of a difference. Having the gate closed seems to raise the bubble line slightly - perhaps for getting more wet skimmate?

The silencer is on just enough to silence the noise. Most importantly, I clean the injection tube by removing the silencer and letting it drink up 1/2 cup of warm RODI water per week. Salt crystals in the tube will reduce the airflow, so it is very important to keep this clean.

Lastly, I clean the collection cup every few days (perhaps twice a week), especially if I see crud in the riser tube. I try not to disturb the skimmer if I see bubbles active in the riser. I will clean it only when it is not producing.

Here are three questions for you:

1) Where is your skimmer pump located in your sump?
2) Do you see microbubbles in your sump?
3) Do you see microbubbles in your display?

I am having a micro-bubble issue, so I am experimenting now...

[pammy]

Hi Rroselavy. Thanks for such a great detailed response. Now that I think of it, my skimmer only produces about 1/4 to 1/3rd" every 3 days when I clean the skimmer cup. I do clean the venturi a couple times a week....whenever I clean the skimmer cup.

The only time I see microbubbles in my display or sump, is when that filter sock gets dirty, and the water is flowing over it, rather than thru it. Both pumps are in the large area of the sump.

Thanks again!
Pam







The amount of skimmate you get is a function of how efficient your skimmer is AND how heavy your nutrients (in the form of DOM). My bioload (and thus my feedings) are still pretty light, so I do not see much action (like 1/4" of medium color skimmate per week!). I am not sure how good of a Skimmer the NS500 is (I have read that the Euro-Reef equivalent kicks its butt), but it seems very well built. I would love to switch it out for a different skimmer for comparison.

My gate is 1/2 closed. I've experimented with various settings, but none seem to make much of a difference. Having the gate closed seems to raise the bubble line slightly - perhaps for getting more wet skimmate?

The silencer is on just enough to silence the noise. Most importantly, I clean the injection tube by removing the silencer and letting it drink up 1/2 cup of warm RODI water per week. Salt crystals in the tube will reduce the airflow, so it is very important to keep this clean.

Lastly, I clean the collection cup every few days (perhaps twice a week), especially if I see crud in the riser tube. I try not to disturb the skimmer if I see bubbles active in the riser. I will clean it only when it is not producing.

Here are three questions for you:

1) Where is your skimmer pump located in your sump?
2) Do you see microbubbles in your sump?
3) Do you see microbubbles in your display?

I am having a micro-bubble issue, so I am experimenting now...

[rroselavy]

The only time I see microbubbles in my display or sump, is when that filter sock gets dirty, and the water is flowing over it, rather than thru it. Both pumps are in the large area of the sump.

Oh, sorry...I meant "Where within the main compartment are your pumps located?" My skimmer pump is now below the overflow drain, with the intake grate facing the right wall of the sump, and my return is in the opposite corner, with the intake grate facing the slow-flow chamber right below the chamber's drain.

My micro-bubbles seem to come from the main overflow drain tube (not the skimmer), and drift over to the return pump where they are pumped back up.

One more question if you don't mind:

How high is your water level in your main sump compartment?

Mine ranges between 1.25"-2.25" above the top of the return pump intake grate depending on the ATO cycle. Jesse suggested raising my water level an inch or two and/or installing an elbow fitting on the return intake that would aim downward.

[pammy]

Hi Rroselavy

My water level is about 3.5" above the height of the return pump. The return pump is in the front left hand corner of the front of the main compartment, grate facing the slow flow chamber. The skimmer pump is next to it, but towards the back wall, grate also facing the slow flow chamber.
Nothing under the overflow drain.

Bye
Pam

Oh, sorry...I meant "Where within the main compartment are your pumps located?" My skimmer pump is now below the overflow drain, with the intake grate facing the right wall of the sump, and my return is in the opposite corner, with the intake grate facing the slow-flow chamber right below the chamber's drain.

My micro-bubbles seem to come from the main overflow drain tube (not the skimmer), and drift over to the return pump where they are pumped back up.

One more question if you don't mind:

How high is your water level in your main sump compartment?

Mine ranges between 1.25"-2.25" above the top of the return pump intake grate depending on the ATO cycle. Jesse suggested raising my water level an inch or two and/or installing an elbow fitting on the return intake that would aim downward.

[rroselavy]

My water level is about 3.5" above the height of the return pump. The return pump is in the front left hand corner of the front of the main compartment, grate facing the slow flow chamber. The skimmer pump is next to it, but towards the back wall, grate also facing the slow flow chamber.
Nothing under the overflow drain.

Your pumps are exactly where mine were initially. Someone suggested on RC that the pump below the overflow drain tube may help to eliminate the bubble problem, and possibly pull more dissolved organic matter into the skimmer. After I have had it under there for about a week, I think it may actually be reducing the skimming due to all the bubbles it is sucking in. More bubbles=Less water (and thus less DOM). I may put the pumps (and skimmer intake) back where they were.

Your water level is significantly higher that mine. Good to know. I may try raising it as well.

Thanks again,

-Scott

[pammy]

You're Welcome Scott !

Pam

[laurabolyard]

That algae looks so much like my 'clump' that I have been trying to ID. Ive gone crazy, but as near as I can get is Kallymenia schizophylla, or similar. I found a pic online that looks like mine. My clump is biggger than a softball, it isnt attached to anything, I bought it that way. Any ID on Pammys?

[laurabolyard]

anybody Home

[rroselavy]

That algae looks so much like my 'clump' that I have been trying to ID. Ive gone crazy, but as near as I can get is Kallymenia schizophylla, or similar. I found a pic online that looks like mine. My clump is biggger than a softball, it isnt attached to anything, I bought it that way. Any ID on Pammys?

For kicks, I just dug up a couple of books I have, including Algae: A Problem Solver Guide (Sprung), Reef Secrets (Nilsen/Fossa) and Reef Invertebrates (Calfo/Fenner). My novice eyes (which may not be worth much) has Pammy's Algae looking like a Halymenia sp. (Floresia?), while the leftmost photo you posted looks much like a Nitophyllum sp. - both depicted on page 58 of Sprung. The problem is that, if you look up both Genera, you'll see such a variety of species (growth forms) that I would assume it is difficult to determine the Genera, much less the Species. Furthermore, the species of images you find on the internet may often be incorrectly attributed.

Nitophyllum is commonly know as "Red Dictoyota", but the growth form of your rightmost attached picture does not look like the same specimen as the left... They are small images, so it is hard to tell...

[laurabolyard]

Thank you soooo much for looking. I was on the algae__.org looking forever, there are just so many types. Mine looks most like the one on the left. It is not at all fleshy, but crisp. I really want to know what it is so I can learn more about it. LFS where I bought it was no help "red algea" was all they could tell meI am trying to get my camera to cooperate, in the meantime, Im going to look up nitophylum. thanx so much! Check back for my actual photo! Laura

[laurabolyard]

Here are a couple of pics of a small clump on the counter, its hard to see because I took a vga pic. I think I'll try a higher resolution, but I thin the file is going to be too big.

[rroselavy]

Here are a couple of pics of a small clump on the counter, its hard to see because I took a vga pic. I think I'll try a higher resolution, but I thin the file is going to be too big.

Uh, I think it is hard to see because both pics are way out of focus. The first pic is focused on the background, and the second pic seems just as blurry. Does your camera not focus that near? Perhaps try to see if your camera has a "Macro" mode so you can focus the alga at this close distance. Also, try to get a close up of a few strands.

-Scott

[laurabolyard]

Macro mode- kinda funny Im going to try my Nikon tomorrow, I tried using my sons camera, to no avail!

[CarmieJo]

Try the macro setting and if needed back up to get in focus, use the optical zoom (not digital) and then crop.