Reply With QuoteGreat explanation of the cycle.
A good number of posts that have to do with cycling are mostly concerned with things like “how can I start my cycle”, “Is my cycle over”, “I am reading nitrites and nitrates but never saw ammonia”, and a myriad of other questions related to the initial set up of a bio filtering system. While knowledge of what, why and how cycling is important, there are some other considerations that should go along with the set up of a new marine aquarium.
First what is cycling? “The nitrogen cycle of an aquarium is a chain reaction in nature resulting in the birth of various types of nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria, each with their own job to do. The three components involved to make this happen are ammonia (NH³ or NH³+4), nitrite (NO²), and nitrate (NO³). In general the nitrogen cycling process usually takes about 30 days, but there is no exact time frame for this process to complete its task, as each aquarium is different. Factors such as how many fish, other livestock, and organic matter is present in the tank can vary the completion time, one way or the other. Testing your aquarium water during cycling is very important, as this will tell you what phase the aquarium is in at any given time throughout the process.”
Okay so academia has told us what the cycle is. We will not get into the details of this anymore than that for this discussion. What is important to note however are the statements “Factors such as how many fish, other livestock, and organic matter is present in the tank can vary the completion time, one way or the other. Testing your aquarium water during cycling is very important, as this will tell you what phase the aquarium is in at any given time throughout the process.”
So what we will discuss here is the source of that organic matter and the actual process that we follow in cycling an aquarium. All inclusive, probably not, but at least a basis from which to make some decisions. So let’s start off with;
HARD CYCLING
If there is a standard in cycling a marine tank this is probably it. Get a glass box, put in some substrate, rockwork if you desire, saltwater and throw in a source of organic matter. This organic matter can range from live rock, fish, fish food, cocktail shrimp, ammonia, all the way up to someone urinating in the tank. (Please don’t pee in your tank) After the organic matter has been introduced the aquarist is advised to perform ammonia and nitrite testing to watch for the “cycle”. No filtering, no water changes, no skimmer, no lights, just let it rip. Without regard to the levels of ammonia or nitrite reached the aquarist was told that once the ammonia and nitrite spiked then went back to zero, low and behold your cycle is complete. Do a water change and begin to add critters, usually a small cleanup crew and over the course of the next few weeks they could start to add fish and or corals all the while watching for ammonia to spike again. If it did spike there were of course certain reactions that were needed along with the verbal abuse that sometimes came along with doing things too soon.
Over the history of starting a marine tank it became unpopular to use fish as the source of the organic matter because of the toxic or deadly levels of ammonia that occur in the tank during the cycle. Certainly this was inhumane and torturous to said fish and of course the bashing of new people for using fish began, even though this was the norm in the beginning. After a time It became common knowledge that there was in fact enough of the organic matter needed on live rock to facilitate the cycling process. This led to live rock becoming the standard by which most new people are instructed to start their tanks with.
So capitalism being what it is, retailers dealing in pet supplies see the opportunity here and start to get in large orders of rock from the ocean. Then in an effort to “help” the new aquarist along they begin to sell differing qualities of live rock. Where it comes from does not matter for this discussion but the fact is that you can purchase uncured live rock for one price and cured live rock for another higher price. The difference here being that the uncured live rock is “straight from the ocean, boxed up and shipped to the retailer and available to the aquarist fresh from the ocean water”. Then for some additional cost the retailer will perform some magic to the rock called curing. This entails the retailer keeping the live rock in bins at their facility, cleaning the rock of any decayed matter that has accumulated from the source through the delivery, water changes etc. etc. etc. so that the aquarist gets pure rock with no nasty die-off that may cause an ammonia spike in their tanks. This cured rock has the nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria already in place and can be used in a new setup as a ready to …..um……rock (hee hee) addition to the tank. Of course there is always some amount of die-off even in cured rock that will continue to deteriorate and produce ammonia, however there may be enough bacteria on the rock itself to take care of it. The only thing, in theory, that the aquarist needs to be concerned about is the additional bio load he\she puts into the tank and the subsequent increase in bacteria needed to convert it. All good, all nice using cured rock should help to reduce the amount of time that is necessary to have an up and running marine tank. We’ll just leave it like that for now. So on to the;
OFT CYCLE
Now let’s talk a little about uncured rock. Rock taken right from the ocean, whether from an established reef or from an area that has had dry rock dropped into it with the goal of establishing it as live rock. This uncured rock comes to the retailer fresh from the ocean and is then shipped to local fish stores or in some cases direct to the aquarist with all of the life and the subsequent death on it. Some fish stores may turn it into cured rock hoping to get the higher price that cured rock demands. Or they may sell it as uncured rock. Some aquarists may put it directly into their aquarium to “cycle with” or they may cure it outside of the tank so that they can use it later. Some may cure or use it to cycle their tanks as noted above in a hard cycle where no consideration is given to how high the ammonia and nitrites get. This hard cycle kills off some if not most of the life on the rock they paid a premium to get. Remember it is less costly than cured live rock, however it is more expensive than dry rock that can be used in our tanks and just seeded with a pc. or two of live rock.
Soft cycling is a method by which the attempt is to retain as much life as possible on the nice live rock you paid a premium for. It starts the same as a hard cycle, get a glass box, add some substrate if desired, add the live rock and the saltwater. Here is where things change though. During a soft cycle the aquarist is advised to run the filters, skimmers, lights. He\she is also to monitor ammonia on a daily if not twice per day basis and if the ammonia is shown to rise to a reading of .5 they are to immediately perform a water change. And every time thereafter when they see a reading of ammonia at .5 boom, another water change. Keep the skimmer cup emptied, Keep the filter floss, pads etc clean. Do everything they can to keep ammonia below that magic .5 reading. Because you see. Live rock contains ….. er…..well…..life. And in a soft cycle we are trying are hardest to keep that life……um……live! You would be amazed at the life that will flourish under these conditions. Sponges, feather dusters, snails, plant, corals, worms, pods etc. etc. etc. all of the things that we are trying to replicate in our small glass boxes. All for a little more work and a little more expense, to get closer to a small system that more resembles the ocean that it originated in.
Soft cycling is not for everyone. Some of us require a more antiseptic looking reef tank. But for those of us that wish to observe life as it exists, both the good and the bad, soft cycling may be something that you want to look into on your next, or even first setup.
Thank you for reading, I hope I have given some a little information to think about.
Henry
Great explanation of the cycle.
Ray or Raymond
There is no elevator to success in marine tanks. You have to take the stairs.
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I wish I found this thread last week when I started my first SW tank's cycle ... I had numerous of the mentioned Sponges, feather dusters, snails, plant, corals, worms, pods - I could have done without the worms but I loved my feather dusters and sponges and I had noticed a few sun corals? that are all gone nowIts been a week today that I started, actually thrusday I added the extra LR that spiked the system can I still do these water changes will that save anything in the tank? It will be 4 days today that the water spiked. The only life I see in there right now is a mini brittle star that made an appearance today and its moving very lethargicly. Any more info on this subject would be much appreciated
Marcella
.... The seaweed is always greener in somebody else's lake
"Ariel, listen to me. The human world its a mess! Life under the sea is better than anything they got up there! "
~Sebastian the Crab
from the Little Mermaid
As a fan of all the little rock dwelling creatures I'm glad someone pointed it out!!!! Another interesting note is to start your soft cycle with only a small amount of rock during your cycle, then when you add your clean up crew begin adding your live rock (both cured and uncured). This will make sure that the tank is more prepared to handle the decay involved with the newly added rock and of course cleanup crew members such as hermits will aid in expeditiously removing the dead stuff. You will have to tend to the tank just as you did with the first cycle if you add too quickly, but the results are well worth it! I often add a chunk of rock here or there in my established tank just to see what comes out.
A lot of success can be gained in our little micro-habitats by focusing on bio-diversity, for the layman... the more different little critters you can have the more natural jobs you can fill!. Most of our bio-diversity comes from this live rock. Always good to grab a few chunks of live rock from different sources, and maybe a cup or two of sand from an established system.
~J
Hey Spanko! Great post! Thanks for the informative and fun presentation!
Marcellina, if there is anything still alive in your tank (I suspect more than just the star) You could try the "soft cycle" approach. I decided to take that route when i found a hermit crab in some live rock I had added. After that I added some live rock from a friends tank that I transported in water so that the chance of die-off was minimized. All of the "micro-life" I have in my tank came from that rock and a pint of sand I also got from my friend at that time.
THEJRC, Dude! I can't believe it took me 13 minutes (or longer!) to write that last post!
You weren't there when I started!
Gotta work on those typing skills!!
Well either you were deep in thought on what and how you wanted to word the post, or you were screwing around getting coffee and Cheerios.Originally Posted by Iron E
THEJRC, Dude! I can't believe it took me 13 minutes (or longer!) to write that last post!
You weren't there when I started!
Gotta work on those typing skills!!
Either way thanx for posting here to you and all that have joined in.
It would be nice to get some real world experiences from some of the members on their specific "soft cycle" so come on, if you have done it tell us about it!!
Henry
he he, I type like a banshee man, one of the side effects of being a unix administrator. Go figure I even did an edit, much like this one...THEJRC, Dude! I can't believe it took me 13 minutes (or longer!) to write that last post!
You weren't there when I started!
Gotta work on those typing skills!!
in edit, as far as experiences I've actually set up a few tanks in a more "cycle-less" fashion. Much like a soft cycle really but by using a good bulk of sand and rock from an established system and starting with at least 20% of the water being water pulled from a water change elsewhere. It's a lot more akin to moving stuff from one glass box to another but a little trimmed down. The nutrient rich water from the water change water helps aid in the cycle.
~J
typical unix behavior. always using lower case!
Old habits die hard!!! I could make it worse from a geek standpoint.....
rm -rf /tank/nutrients
~J
I had a feelin'...
I had a feelin' that was comin'...
I held it back as long as I could....
~J
Marcella, Joe is an expert!
As far as the critters you had that have gone AWOL. My experience is that sometimes the critters go hide but come back when the conditions are more favorable.
Carmie
Only disasters happen fast!
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hah....
Marcella, Joe is an expert!
As far as the critters you had that have gone AWOL. My experience is that sometimes the critters go hide but come back when the conditions are more favorable.
I got some great land in florida for sale too........
as far as the critters, you'd be surpised as to the survivability not to mention the rampant speed they breed at in higher nutrient systems. The brittle stars will work their way deep into the rock when under shock and it will take quite a while to come out if they survived (very likely a few did). Other species such as bristle worms, amphipods, mysids, and some harpacticoid copepods will slowly show up sooner. Some copepods will lay resting eggs that will weather a severe environment change and hatch at a later time.
in any case, the REAL purpose of the cycle is mother natures way of teaching you the most important lesson you could ever learn in reefkeeping.....
patience......
If you ever glimpse at how I run my systems you could easily argue that I "do everything wrong" as I keep my systems extremely high nutrient.... theres arguments about what to use what to run how much light how deep your sand is how much rock blah blah blah.... The reality is.... if you take it slow and watch closely you can head most problems off at early stages and eventually find your own balance. It's all about balance... and it's never acheived in just a few weeks... in fact... it's very rarely acheived in just a few months!!! Regardless of what kind of tank you keep. The good news???? while you wait and watch you've got a ton of information to gather and read.... figure out what you want to keep and tune your system for that.... study study study...
and more importantly you need to realize:
Even the experts are inexperienced in this hobby!!!
Keeping an ocean in a small glass box is impossible, we pick chunks and go for it. I study and play with plankton because it dawned on me one day that even a random jack hole like me can change the way I do things from the norm, observe, and learn something new... something that no one else has found out. THATS how much we know about our oceans!! scary huh? Be patient and have fun!
(and just for you Iron)
{/OVERLY_LONG_STRING_OF_BABBLE}
~J
A CAPITAL IDEA!
just goes to show, it takes a geek to have a unix sense of humor!
Thanks for all the really useful information. Patience is something I have alot of - I have two kids oldest just turned 3, I have two small dogs, used to have 2 cats up until last year AND I have a husband who works too hard so I dont have much help around the house. And so bc I have such a small workload already.... when my 3 year old asked for Nemo last Christmas mommy started researching as much as she could so she could get him Nemo for his birthday (I have always wanted a SW tank so Nemo is just a good excuse as any!) LOL
I think I will do a water change either today or tomorrow as I want to empty out my tank and level it out. I think the soft cycling is a great idea and it does make alot of sense to me. Will the cycing take longer if I do it this way? I have all the jugs the SW came in so I will just fill them up again and then just put in one fresh batch, its SW that they make from the LFS RO kind it should be good right? Also I want to rearrange my LR, the actually look really good now that the water is cleared but I need to just rotate everything 3 inches CCW.
I got another pump today but I will ask questions about that on another thread.
Marcella
.... The seaweed is always greener in somebody else's lake
"Ariel, listen to me. The human world its a mess! Life under the sea is better than anything they got up there! "
~Sebastian the Crab
from the Little Mermaid
Top posting in edit I noticed that I posted late... man I'm turning into Iron...
LFS saltwater is fine, typically you will want to examine picking up an RO unit for home at a later time.... with kids you might want to go the same route I did and pick up a smaller under-sink unit that has a tank and a tap for drinking, that way you can spread the wealth (if it's good enough for nemo it's good enough for me).
right now is the time to play with the aquascape, you wont really hurt the cycle by moving stuff around so go for it.... but future advise..... if you decide to move anything for any reason (to extract a bad fish later on for instance) you will
NEVER
EVER
EVER
get the rock the same way again....
it's true!
youd be amazed how many people I run into in my field of work that are into reefkeeping... it's like guitar (yes I play guitar too).
Reefkeepers are:
Pest control experts
Computer and network engineers
Electrical engineers
contract managers
finance managers
accountants
bartenders
graphic artists
schoolteachers
tree trimmers (yep know two of em!)
home builders
concrete workers
heavy equipment operators
telecom installers
chefs
short order cooks
waiters/waitresses
pilots
golf pros! (that was an odd one)
investment professionals
and it goes on and on... me.... I fit the last and un-named classification
weirdo....
~J
You can add these to the list:
truck drivers
welders
mechanics
baristas
photographers
taiko drummers
I fit in them all...!
taiko drummers... hah.... even more interesting....
I started out wanting to be an auto mechanic.... I'm now a network engineer (the mechanical thought helps more than can be explained).... I was depressed on my last "big" birthday because I missed two goals that I held highly, I wanted to learn how to weld and get my CDL.... why?? why the hell not???
~J
Reef keepers are...
Transit planners
Geeks
Nerds
ADD
Or at least this one is.
Carmie
Only disasters happen fast!
Carmie's 54 Corner Tank
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Marcella, one really important thing about buying SW from the LFS - never trust them! Always test the water when you get home for at least SpG and pH. Once you get into stony corals you should also test Ca and alk. I know of one case where a guy claims he asked for SW and just got RO. Unfortunately he didn't test it and did a water change and wiped out his system. Now I can't say if this it all true or not but it sounds like it could happen. The employee made a mistake or the guy picked up someone elses jug. I'd mark your jugs with your name so that you can't accidentally pick up the wrong one at the LFS.
Carmie
Only disasters happen fast!
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Excellent point, I've seen this one happen!!! I've been blessed with a really good LFS (seascape aquatics if your in colorado springs) but like any other business there is always risk.
It has always been my montra, no matter how much other hobbyists go on and on about light and flow and starfire glass... and this skimmer and that reactor and what not... two things a hobbyist MUST own....
refractometer, and a good RO unit....
period!
~J
Good point Carmie. I just tested my SG in my tank and its 1.028 and its 82 degrees (no heater) Isnt that too high? What can I do to bring it down?
I have yet to test the jugs I got from the LFS What do I do if its just RO water? do I have to mix salt in it?
Marcella
.... The seaweed is always greener in somebody else's lake
"Ariel, listen to me. The human world its a mess! Life under the sea is better than anything they got up there! "
~Sebastian the Crab
from the Little Mermaid
Yes, 1.028 is too high, I keep mine at 1.025-1.026. What are you using to measure the SpG with? You can bring it down by removing say a quart and replacing it with fresh. At this point in time this will also work to bring down the ammonia.
You need to have both plain RO water for top offs and SW. It is cheaper to make your own SW but it is one more thing you have to do your self. It isn't hard, I just mix it up in a Brute trash can.
Carmie
Only disasters happen fast!
Carmie's 54 Corner Tank
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