Mag pumps and plumbing question

[cheng21tang]

ok so i'm in the planning process. and i don't like to skimp on anything. if your going to do something right, do it right the first time. i know you want as much flow through your tank as possible. it looks like i will be getting a 120 gal. w/ 40 gal sump and probably going to run the sump a little over half way so like 25 gals extra. so with that making my total volume 145 (150 maybe). and i know you want to turn that volume over 10-15 times. making that 1500-2250 gph.

now one of the LFS guys told me that he turns over his tank about 35 times. but he has a 40 gal tank. that seems to me like way too much flow for a tank. but i know more flow is better for your corals.

well here's the question. the MAG 36 will pump around 2800gph at 5 ft head. is that too much flow for a 120 display tank? (here: 48x24x24 if the dimensions matter at all) i would be turning over the tank 23 times. 23 times isn't as much as the guy at the LFS said he was running on his tank at home. but 23 times is near twice as much as i ever read about doing.

another question is - i know i can throttle the pump back to control the flow. but will me throttling back the pump lessen it's life-span? and i know a little tweak with a ball valve will be just fine. but it i throttle the pump down to half the output will i be seriously killing my pump? if i would be then i would be better of with a smaller pump right?

i was also thinking about doing a manifold and having many returns. as i will have 2 return holes. but then i can run more return pipes else where in the tank. like a spraybar the length of the tank under the liverock to help with circulation. anyone have experience with a manifold and a spraybar?

sorry for so many questions all at once. i just wanted to figure this out before i order a pump. and i for sure don't want to get the wrong one and have to return it. i might be getting my tank on my birthday on the 6th (i have a good gf) so i want to get started right away. finishing up the final plans. thanks for any help.

[JustDavidP]

I throttle back my Mag7 and with my plumbing technique have always had the option to do so. I've owned it for 5 years now and it's still going strong.

I think that a pump that large is overkill, but that is just me. I also like to differentiate between FLOW and TURNOVER rates. I believe that you need a much lower TURNOVER rate than most people suggest. I also believe that you need (for SPS anyways) MORE FLOW than what most people suggest.

If you are going to build a manifold, you'll have some loss there. I'm not in a position to calculate that now, I'm off to a meeting. But, if you want, check out or search for Anthony Calfo's Manifold ideas. I believe Melev has some posted on his site too. Use them, their design and then calculate the pressure losses before you decide on a pump.

All out... off to a meeting.

Dave

[CarmieJo]

Calfo was one of the speakers at the Western Marine Conference that Victoria just attended. You might want to ask her if he spoke about the manifolds.

[Reefbaby]

it looks like i will be getting a 120 gal. w/ 40 gal sump and probably going to run the sump a little over half way so like 25 gals extra. so with that making my total volume 145 (150 maybe). and i know you want to turn that volume over 10-15 times. making that 1500-2250 gph.

I agree with what Dave is saying about "turnover" vs "flow". Personally, I would suggest going with a lower turnover through your sump (3-5X is sufficient). And I would get the rest of the flow within the display. Your idea of a closed loop manifold is a great way to distribute flow into more areas of the tank, without blasting away from one powerhead output. However, I wouldn't recommend a spray bar...haven't heard too many good things about those.

If you use a closed loop manifold, you can plumb tubing and outlets across the top of your tank as well as down along the back of your tank and towards the bottom. Also, you'll have the advantage of not having all the powerheads IN the display, which some consider an eye-sore.

Here's a link that I think Dave might have been referring to:
Goodbye Powerheads

Good luck!

[Rob]

my few comments in addition.
the Mag pumps are great for the price, but tend to be a bit lound, and the get real hot.
check out little giant pumps, quiet one pumps, and iwaki pumps.
these are what are used in the tanks where "people want the good stuff"

and as mentioned, dont worry about moving that much water from the return pump.. make it up in your flow (as opposed to turnover as dave mentioned)

and as far as over all flow, my minimum recommendation is 15x, preferably 20x.. 10x is a bit low IMO

[gwen_o_lyn]

What are your goals for the tank? Kinda hard to recommend flow when we don't know what is planned for the tank

[cheng21tang]

dave and reefbaby

yea i never thought about that. i was thinking turnover instead of flow. i wasn't thinking of them as two seperate things. but i get what you guys are saying.

what i was thinking exactly was. having 2 return lines from the one pump. and then splitting those lines inside the tank. so basically having 4 returns on a 3000gph pump. which would be like 750gph in 4 directions. which would be like having 4 powerheads inside the tank.

would that be a good thing? or is that how you guys do yours?
cuz i would like to cut back on the powerheads and have no power heads at all if possible. i mean i can split the lines and use locklines to direct the flow and change the direction every now and again when needed. tell me what you think.

and i'm looking right now into the manifolds...

gwen i've decided that FOWLR won't be enough for me and i want to take the dive straight into reefing. starting with a few hardy corals of course. i like sps and i like lps. i still have to study up on species naming and the requirements. but i was thinking over a year of getting a few corals and then learning more on the way to keep what i want and actually deciding to go sps or lps or both (if that's possible).

[cheng21tang]

i read the calfo site and saw the manifold. i think i might do that. but again he did it with a pump from the sump and ran 1 return and broke it off like 7 times with tee's. that's what i was thinking. i wonder that it would be unsightly to see pvc at the top of the tank? i'll try it out.

and i read that because mag pumps are magnetically driven it's ok to throttle it down but when you throttle down direct drive pumps it does damage to the pump. and wears it down (lifespan). just to let you guys know if you don't know.

i'll draw up a manifold type return and tell me what you guys think. i'll post it later when i have time to do it. then i'll figure out the pump to pick to run it. thanks

[cheng21tang]

ok to void the other 2 post. when i thought i got it but i guess i didn't. but now i do.

turnover - volume entering and exiting tank
flow - gph in display only

so i guess instead of one big mag 36
i'll get 2 smaller pumps maybe 2x mag 12 and use one for return and use another one for a closed-loop/manifold (is manifold another word for closed-loop?) and get the flow i will need in the future.

again drawings coming soon for critiques.

[Reefbaby]

what i was thinking exactly was. having 2 return lines from the one pump. and then splitting those lines inside the tank. so basically having 4 returns on a 3000gph pump. which would be like 750gph in 4 directions. which would be like having 4 powerheads inside the tank.

Yes, you could split the returns. In fact, it's a safer way to go, because if one of the pumps every goes out or if you need to service you, then you've still got the flow going. So, if you can afford to split up the return, then go for it.

BUT - you've still got ALL of your flow going through your sump, which I would still consider turnover. Even if you split up your return and direct it into the tank via a manifold, you've still got 15-20X water flow going through your sump. The biggest problem with such a high turnover is that your skimmer has less of a chance of pulling out all the yuckies out of the water if it's just whizzing by. By having a slower flow through the sump, you'll allow more of the water to come in contact with the skimmer, thus removing more impurities and proteins. Does that make sense?

Check out my tank thread. I've designed a manifold - not to say that it's necessarily the best design, but maybe it will help to see how you can design it. Typically, people (if they've got acrylic tanks) drill two holes towards the top part of the back wall (as you can see in my diagram). These holes and then connected to tubing and pumps that bring the water back into the aquarium over the top of down the back. I've designed mine to take OUT of the aquarium in two spots and then to deliver the water back in via a manifold. And then I've got my return lines going down the back wall in order to get more flow towards the bottom half of the tank.

[gwen_o_lyn]

If your goal is a more LPS/SPS tank- then go towards the "more flow" spectrum. You prolly want about 18-20 tanks per hour minumum with all your powerheads/pumps added up.

And always keep a backup pump just in case your main pump goes out since it sounds like you want to use one pump.

What kind of lighting do you have in mind?

[cheng21tang]

yea a closed loop might have to do.

gwen
lighting wise i can't afford mh for a while. but i will probably start off with some VHO's. probably 4x96 watts. 2 full spec and 2 antinic. what do you guys recommend by BRAND??? any recommendation brand-wise would be great. i mean from your guys experience.

[Rob]

have you looked at HO T5?
the tend to be less than a full MH hood, and are very bright and efficient

[cheng21tang]

yea i have looked at some t5's. i'm a bit confused when looking at lighting. i mean i get it i just haven't seen them first hand. so like the straight-pin and square-pin. t5, t12, t-whatever. any explaination of light styles would be great.

so no VHO's?

[Jimm]

I think you'd like the T-5's better.

[ZeroKoolNYC]

Cheng21tang, just out of curiousity what are you using as an overflow for your tank. I have personally used a Mag 12 drive and these suckers don't lose much GPH rating even if the head return is 5ft and over. You might just experience an issue where more water is returned to the tank faster then your overflow can pull it out. This leads to the Mag Drive to not be submerged by water and returning are bubbles/water into your tank. Not a great sight in my opinon!

As for lighting I have a 436 watt T5 High Output and I couldn't be any more impressed. If you put your hands under the light it feels like your at the beach getting a sun tan. The out is extremely bright and colors are so vibrant. Plus it will save you on the electric bill :-)

[cheng21tang]

overflow will probably be 1 1/2 inch. i know that can pull out close to 1300gph. so i was thinking a mag 12 would be perfect with the headloss it would be below the 1300 mark for sure. probably pumping a bit less than 1000gph.

lighting wise... i was looking at a few lights. here are some links to the lights i can afford and are thinking about getting:

coralife 48" http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewIt...roduct=ES53106
current usa power compacts 48" http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewIt...roduct=CU01024
current usa dual fix 48" http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewIt...roduct=CU01016

or maybe a retrokit. what do you guys think. tell me what you guys have. what brand. type. bulbs.

[ZeroKoolNYC]

Cheng21tang, I promise that if your only pumping the water up 5ft your not going to be experiencing much if at all any head loss in the gph rating with a Mag 13 to be on the sage side I would recommend a Mag 12. This should keep you from having to periodically break the syphon from your overflow to allow the appropriate water level to be refilled within your sump or wet/dry trickle filter. Just my opinion though. Maybe someone else can chime in on their personal experience with Mag Drives. I know that the smaller units such as the Mag 7 have a tendancy for extreme gph rating loss from head length of 3 feet or more.

[ZeroKoolNYC]

lighting wise... i was looking at a few lights. here are some links to the lights i can afford and are thinking about getting:

coralife 48" http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewIt...roduct=ES53106
current usa power compacts 48" http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewIt...roduct=CU01024
current usa dual fix 48" http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewIt...roduct=CU01016

or maybe a retrokit. what do you guys think. tell me what you guys have. what brand. type. bulbs.

Are you planning to make this a Fish Only with Live Rock Aquarium or a Reef Tank. If your planning to hold Coral I would also consider purchasing at least a T5 High Output Lighting system. Current USA make a model the Orbit Extreme which is available in a 216 watt and 436 watt. I just installed the 436 watt model and it is amazing.

[cheng21tang]

yea i was looking at the current usa models. i like them. but maybe a retro. it's so hard to choose. it will be a reef tank. so i want to have the proper lighting right away.

[Rob]

the coral you want to keep are going to dictate the lights.
those are all PC hoods, so they will allow you to keep coral that all for LOW light.
you might be able o pull off SOME medium light corals, but its a stretch.

if you want something better, you will need to look at T5 or MH

[cheng21tang]

the coral you want to keep are going to dictate the lights.
those are all PC hoods, so they will allow you to keep coral that all for LOW light.
you might be able o pull off SOME medium light corals, but its a stretch.

BOB,
if you want something better, you will need to look at T5 or MH

so t5's are going to be the best fluorescents? are T5's VHO? i kinda don't get it sometimes. is it possible to go with PC and then some MH later for the light-loving corals. or should i go with t5's and MH later?

and could you recommend any good brands and set ups. it'll be a 48" tank. thanks.

[Rob]

there are people that repost with enough T5 lighting you wont need the MH bulbs.
im not sure how much as i have never used T5s but im sure others will jump in.

T5 are technically HO not VHO, but my understanding is that they output more useful light than a VHO ... go figure...lol

[cheng21tang]

there are people that repost with enough T5 lighting you wont need the MH bulbs.
im not sure how much as i have never used T5s but im sure others will jump in.

T5 are technically HO not VHO, but my understanding is that they output more useful light than a VHO ... go figure...lol

that's funny that they put out more useful light that VHO. i always understood that VHO were going to be the best flourescents you can get. but i will believe you. i mean i know that their basically identical in performance and the only thing that would seperate them is opinion.

i like the fact that i can get away with just alot of HO lighting and not have MH. but to my understanding i know MH's add a color to your corals that you can't achieve with regular flourescents. that true natural light (like the sun, no exactly but as close as you can get). and i know your corals only look as good as your lighting will let them.

it's funny how my mag pump post became a lighting post on the 2nd half.

[Reefbaby]

Here's some info to differentiate between the different types of lighting available. Information found here

Standard Fluorescent (NO normal output): All "off the shelf" aquarium systems are sold with Normal/ Standard florescent fixtures. The largest wattage available is 40 watts. If your system is a Fish Only, you can get by with this lighting. If you use at least 2 quality bulbs, an AquaSun or 50/50 with a blue actinic, you can keep some mushrooms, soft corals, sponges, etc. You have to be very selective, but they can be used for the lower light corals. The typical lifespan of a NO aquarium bulb is 9 to 12 months.

VHO - Very High Output: VHO means VERY HIGH OUTPUT. These bulbs are up to 3 times the wattage of Standard Florescent yet are the same size. In fact, a standard 48" bulb is only 40 watts, the same 48" VHO bulb is 110 watts. These bulbs require a unique BALLAST to power them. Electronic Ballasts are specifically designed for these bulbs. The other feature of the VHO is the three main spectrums you can utilize, Aqusun, 50/50 and Actinic. The AquSun is a 10K bulb, excellent for coral growth. The Actinic bulb is s special "BLUE" bulb that brings out the color and beautiful iridescence of Marine Fish and Coral. The 50/50 bulb is a mix of aqusun and actinic. Though VHO is powerful enough to maintain most Soft Coral, LPS and some SPS coral, VHO must be used in quantity to support SPS or CLAMS. Because VHO does not penetrate the water as well as Metal Halide, so it's best used for soft coral tanks up to 30" deep, hard coral tanks up to 24" and SPS and clams should be within 12" or less from the light. The typical lifespan of a VHO aquarium bulb is 9 to 12 months.

[QUOTE]T5 HO Fluorescent High Output :The latest technology is the T5 Flourescent Bulb. The unique difference in this new lighting systems is that the Bulb is only 5/8ths of an inch in diameter, yet have a higher lumen output than a VHO, generate less heat, and are more energy efficient, and, because the Bulb is Smaller then VHO, more can be placed side by side than VHO. In fact, it is said that the T5 is an excellent alternative to MH bulbs when 8 bulbs are used with in a hood for maximum light output. /QUOTE]

Compact Fluorescent : Power Compacts is a florescent technology that utilizes a U tube type allowing the bulb to be powered from one end rather than the TWO of Standard, HO or VHO florescent bulbs. They are also smaller in diameter, which can be important in tight fixtures. A 55watt Compact bulb is said to be as bright as a 95 watt VHO tube. It is important to also know that the Power Compact BLUE ACTINIC bulb is not true actinic either. This means that the POWER COMPACT bulb will not have the same Color of Iridescent Glow the VHO True Actinic does. Additionally, while the VHO offers a 10K Crisp White bulb, the nearest PC bulb that compare is a 8800K, though a 1ok is supposed to be released. Compacts work great for soft corals, LPS, and even SPS and clams. 55watt is usually great for up to 24" deep, 96watt for deeper tanks, or more clam/sps tanks. For a small systems 36" length or less, the Compact may be the bulb of choice. The typical lifespan of a Power Compacts aquarium bulb is 6 to 9 months.

Metal Halide: Metal Halide (MH) bulb are the Number 1 choice for successful Marine Reef Systems. Though one can have a beautiful system with PC or VHO, Metal Halide are as close to Sun Light as we can provide our Corals. A single MH bulb can create an arc of light enough for a 36" wide tank. Soft corals, lps, sps and clams grow and thrive exceptionally and MH is the choice for sps and clams. The recommended guidelines are 1 halide bulb for every 2 to 3 feet of tank width. Additionally, Metal Halide can be purchased in many "Kelvin" or Color Temp. Some of the Kelvin available are 5500K warm white, 6500K warm white, 10K Crisp white to blue tint, 12K-20K blue tint. 10K bulbs are best for mixed reefs, SPS and Clams. Some Reefers use the 55-65K for SPS and Clams, but it is a recommendation to use VHO or PC actinic to improve the overall color and look of the animals and system. As far as WATTAGE, MH come in 175, 250 and 400 Watt. The 175watt can be utilized in systems that are up to 20/26" deep, 250watt up to 30/36" deep and 400watt for deeper tanks. SPS and Clams thrive best with the most intense light you can provide, so, it is not uncommon for many Hobbyists to mount a 400watt on even a 30 gallon tank. The typical lifespan of a metal halide aquarium bulb is about 12 months.

That was just some typical info from the web that you can find describing the differences between these lightings.

Here in Europe, T5s are very popular and are being used more and more, especially since they are more efficient (save $$)!! I, personally, have a mixture of MH and T5s and love the colors!