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Thread: Making lemonade from a tank spill

  1. #1
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    Making lemonade from a tank spill

    I returned on Saturday morning to find that my protein skimmer collection container had overflowed all over the carpet in my dining room. For some reason, it started pulling out A LOT more water than it had previously (used to take a month to fill it half-way, and while I was gone, it was filled in less than a week).

    As you can imagine, the smell in my dining room was not pleasant given that skimmer water is ever so fragrant. So, I needed to disassemble the tank and take it out of the house to clean the carpet. In the process of thinking through how to deal with this, I decided to make the best of this situation.

    For a while, I've been thinking that my 45g cube (24w x 24h x 18d) has a couple of problems:
    1. The tank is on a stand that is almost four feet high, which means that I have to get a step stool to do even the most basic maintenance
    2. I'm not a big fan of the 24" height of the tank either as it means that I'm up to my armpits whenever I need to do any work down at the bottom of the tank. It also leaves a lot of dead space at the top of the tank where it's not easily feasible to stack rocks for additional corals
    3. The tank's not drilled and I'm always nervous about the overflow failing for some reason or another
    4. The 24" width leaves very little room in the stand for sumps, skimmers, etc.


    So, with these problems in mind, and the need to take the tank down, I decided to get a larger tank that better fits my desires.

    I went to Tongs (LFS in Orange County, CA) and was able to take advantage of their "Black Friday" sale (even though it was Saturday), and get a 60g glass tank for $69. The tank measures 48" w x 16"h x 18"d which means I won't have to reach in so far and also that there's some horizontal room for the critters to swim. The shallowness of the tank, I think, will also mean that I won't need as much lighting to get down to the bottom of the tank.

    Part 1 of my plan is was to get the 45 out into the garage. This took me from about 11am on Saturday to about 9pm on Sunday to complete.
    1. Setup 10g tank in garage to receive corals and fish temporarily
    2. Empty 45g tank and put corals and fish into 10g tank
    3. Put remaining rocks and sand into buckets
    4. Capture as much water as possible from the 45 for use later
    5. Move 45 out into garage
    6. Put rocks from buckets (not sand though) back into 45
    7. Refill 45 with captured water
    8. Heat water and wait for water to clear up
    9. Install CPR Aquafuge PS back onto 45 to help with filtration
    10. Once 45 is back up to temp and the water has cleared, put the livestock back into the 45
    11. Tear down the 10


    So far, this morning the corals looked good and started coming out when I turned the lights on. The fish are looking good as well. I bought a UV a while back and have that running on the 45 as well to minimize any parasite issues brought on by the stress of the moves. We'll see how things look tonight when I get home from work.

    My next step is to get the 60 up and going. The tank isn't drilled, so I ordered the 1500 GPH overflow kit from glass-holes.com. I also ordered two of their 3/4" Return Line kit with Loc Line. Since the tank has a 10" wide piece of glass in the center of the tank for bracing purposes, I'm planning to put the overflow offset to one side or the other, and will have the returns on the right and left sides of the tank.

    I haven't fully figured out how I'm going to setup my sump equipment for the new tank. I've been toying with the idea of having setting up a 10g tank I have as a refugium with cheeto and live rock rubble and drilling it to gravity feed into the 30 (ish) gallon sump I used to have on the 45. I would then have the old sump setup with my skimmer, the UV, and the return pump. I've also been thinking about feeding the skimmer directly from one of the overflow lines so it gets maximum exposure to the dirty water. I might also try and figure out how to run the output from the skimmer through the UV so I don't have to put a pump on that guy as well.

    I'm open to suggestions on what to use for a return pump. My setup on the 45 used an Eheim 1250 (I think that's the one) for the sump return, and two Hydor Koralia 2 powerheads for circulation. I don't necessarily think that I need a ton of water flow through the sump as the skimmer, UV, heaters, etc., don't necessarily need a lot of flow and lots of flow also creates lots of flow noise. I'm theorizing that if I can push about 1,000 gallons per hour through the sump, that out to be plenty. The rest of the flow can come from powerheads. I've been drooling over the VorTech MPW40 for a while now, we'll see if the budget can handle it.

    For lighting on the 60, I'm thinking of the 48 inch Current USA SunDial T5 HO 4x54W w/ Timers & LED from Marine Depot (I live about 15 min from their warehouse). I like that the unit's got dual times built in and has a single power cord. I have one the 24" versions on my 45 and have liked it quite a bit. Obviously, I'd love to get a Solaris, but the $2,500 up front cost just makes me cringe, especially compared to the $300 for this light.

    My plan for now is to get the 60 up and going in the garage over the next couple of weeks, and then turn the 45 into my QT system. I've been operating without QT so far and it's been a pain. Once I get everything dialed in on the 60, I'll consider moving it into the house. Although, I kind of like the idea of turning my garage into a fish room. The summer heat will end up being a problem for me, I'm sure, but I've got some months to figure that out.

    One other fun thing about all of this is that I've got about 500 lbs of hawaiian base rock in my garage right now that I'm planning to use to aquascape this tank. Obviously I won't be able to use all of it, but I definitely have enough to do pretty much whatever I want with this tank. I've been thinking about using some sort of adhesive or something to fix the rocks in place so I don't have to worry as much about tumbles. The downside of that, of course, is that if (when) I change my mind about the rock config, it'll be a lot more work to change things.

    I've also been toying with the idea of getting a controller for this system. The DA RK2 looks good as does the RKE. I've heard that the RKE has gotten a lot of bad press, but I do like the idea of the unit and the upcoming connectivity features (ethernet). Anyone have thoughts on the controllers they've used and liked and/or used and didn't like?

    I think that pretty much covers it. All in all, this has been a lot of work, but I'm excited about setting up the new tank and doing with fewer compromises and hopefully fewer mistakes than I made on my first tank. Oh yeah, and I'm also glad to get rid of that smell in my dining room.

    To summarize some of the questions from above:
    1. Any thoughts on return pumps & GPH?
    2. Any thoughts on Controllers
    3. Any ideas or concerns about using a 10 as a fuge?
    4. Any thoughts or concerns about my plans for drilling the 60?


    -Chris

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    Grand Master Reefer PhotoJohn's Avatar
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    1. I use a mag 9.5 ($100 shipped off ebay) for my return on my 75g+46g fuge. I like the flow, not real strong but not insignificant.

    2. I am looking into buying a red sea wavemaker pro ($80 on ebay). It isnt made for koralias but many people run them on a controller like this. It has a slow start function to help reduce wear.

    3. I would feed the fuge with return line water if you can. It reduces the crap that can build up in there. Keep the flow very slow.

    4. I drilled my tank. Go slow, my first hole took 1hr, too long but the second only took 30 min. watch all the vids you can find

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    Grand Master Reefer saltaddict's Avatar
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    Very neat project on the horizon. I am sorry you had to get messed up carpet to get it underway.

    Let me know how the drilling comes out. I would like to drill my glass tank for a closed loop system.

  4. #4
    Grand Master Reefer CarmieJo's Avatar
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    I hate that you had to get skimmer water all over your carpet but a new tank project is always exciting!
    Carmie


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    Assistant Moderator rayme07's Avatar
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    It sounds like a great plan and a 60 gallon tank for $69 that's a good deal. It really sucks that you had your carpet wet from the skimmer water but at least something good came out of it. Good luck and happy reefing.
    Ray or Raymond
    There is no elevator to success in marine tanks. You have to take the stairs.


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  6. #6
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    Yeah, I was pretty bummed when my wife called me and said that the carpet around the tank was all wet. My first concern was that there was a leak in the piping somewhere and the ATO had gone nuts filling the tank.

    I got my shipping confirmation from Glass-Holes.com tonight, so I'm hoping to have the hole saws, etc., in my hands within the next day or two.

    I'm also trying to decide what the best approach is for painting the rear of the tank:
    • Drill first, then paint
    • Paint first, then drill
    • Don't paint at all, use some other background


    Any suggestions?

  7. #7
    Grand Master Reefer CarmieJo's Avatar
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    Don't paint! At least don't paint if you want to make the most of the lights that you have spent your money on. This article Liquid Medium Marine Aquarist's Magazine tells you why.
    Carmie


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    Grand Master Reefer saltaddict's Avatar
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    Very interesting CarmieJo! It really does make perfect sense once it is spelled out for you.

    Both of my large tanks have black back walls, one is black acrylic and the other is painted on the glass.

    Guess it is time to buy new tanks!!

    I really like the idea of the tank water on the carpet so I can claim we now "Have to buy new carpet"!!

    Thanks for the great ideas guys.

  9. #9
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    sorry to here you had problems, thats why my wife said NO MORE FISH TANKS, when i started i made every thing , skimmers, wet-drys, sump tanks, pre-filters, drilled own holes in glas (which is easy) and so on, anyway i had a lot of spills and tank drains. the wife use to get mad as hell, (we had tile floor) she got over it you learn from mistakes. its a good excuse for new carpet but get it steam cleaned and save your money for the fish LOL good luck with the new project

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    We bought a steam cleaner a couple of years ago after getting a puppy. I can't tell you how much money I've saved over the years by cleaning my own carpets, and the ability to do it as often and whenever I like is great. Since my son was born in 2004, I've done most of my carpet cleaning at night after he's gone to bed and isn't awake to track dirt all over my freshly cleaned carpets.

    I Had a lot of fun in the garage today getting things situated with the new tank and thinking through possibilities for sumps, refugiums, etc. I also thought a lot about painting the tank and think I've come up with a solution that will work for me.

    I really like having a background of some sort (prefer solid colors) on my tank, and definitely want one on this tank since it will be in the garage and I'm not wild about looking beyond my beautiful corals and fish to see gardening gear (or whatever) on the other side. It's just not reefy.

    On the freshwater tank that's in the living room, I painted a piece of cardboard (pizza box lid, of all things) green and scotch taped it to the glass -- which got me thinking about this tank. I'm planning on getting some foam insulation sheets and cutting them to fit the sides of the tank to provide additional insulation and it occurred to me today that I could just paint one side of the one that's attached to the back of the tank. That way, I don't have to mess with painting the tank, but still block out the garage background.

    I also got a little bit of good news yesterday. I got a verbal job offer from a local company to start with them after the first of the year. So, I've gotta get this project wrapped up by New Years. Nice to have a deadline. I've been out of work since the end of September (right after the financial meltdown) and this new gig will start before my severance package runs out from my old company, so it is looking really positive. I should be getting the actual offer letter in the mail tomorrow.

    Thanks everyone for the responses, I'll keep ya posted on how things progress.

  11. #11
    Grand Master Reefer CarmieJo's Avatar
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    Good news about the job offer! I think that having the foam painted and taped to the outside of the tank is a good idea. It would function just like any other background.
    Carmie


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  12. #12
    SPS Reefer / TR Admin lReef lKeeper's Avatar
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    i did a tank drilling video a while back ... its on this site somewhere. let me see if i can find it ...

    here it is ...

    http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/di...lass-tank.html
    lReef lKeeper (Bobby) Admin and Reefer

    Water ...
    Custom 4x2x1 60 gallon, 40B sump

    Equipment ...
    6x54w HO T5 fixture, 300+g rated Frankenskimmer, ATO, 3 Media Reactors (1 p04, 1 N03, 1 Carbon)

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  13. #13
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    Thanks for the link. I've watched a couple of tank drilling videos, but hadn't seen this one. I like how you make the water dam a little higher to keep the water in.

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    Update

    Well, I've been really busy on this tank.

    I received the drilling kit from Glass-Holes and was able to drill my tank for both the overflow and returns. The kit was pretty good, but I did have to "improve" on what they sent a little. Once nice thing that they include is a wooden drilling template that you can clamp down on the glass, then use the holes in the template as guides to drill the holes in the tank. The overflow I got has two outputs with 1.5" bulkheads. My only problem was that the holes were not precisely spaced apart from each other or vertically from the top edge of the template. I ended up making my own template with some scrap acrylic laying around my garage and my drill press. Other than that issue (which could have been a big one), things went really smoothly with the drilling.

    I was able to pick up a used 50g acrylic tank from a guy on RC for $25. It's pretty scratched up, but I don't much care about that. I had a local plastics shop create my dividers for me, which ran about $85 for 5 pieces. Sounds expensive until you learn that the first several quotes I got were well north of $100. I routed off most of the top piece of plexi, then glued the dividers into the sump. The glue job's not super pretty, but it's functional. I also added some extra bracing to the top to make up for removing the top brace. My logic is that between the additional support provided by the dividers, and the additional bracing, that I don't need the old bracing that was there. We'll find out over time how that assumption plays out.

    Last week, I got the tank all plumbed and got water flowing through all of the pipes. After testing for a couple of days with freshwater, I drained the tank and sump, dried them, then started adding sand and rocks. I poured in the bucket of "live" sand from my old tank as well as about 40 lbs of additional sand to make my DSB. I also added a bunch of rocks by using small rocks to make supports that go into the sand down to the glass, with the larger rocks resting on them. I ended up with lots of cools swimming areas that I think the fish will like. After I got everything in, and saltwater added, I looked into the tank and there was a hermit crab crawling around that had survived about 3 weeks in a bucket of sand with no water circulation or heat. Little bugger's still in the tank tonight walking around looking for food.

    Electricity-wise, I decided to take the plunge and got a Digital Aquatics Reef Keeper Elite. I'm having a lot of fun with that and really appreciate a lot of the features, with my favorite being a Standby mode that shuts off the sump return pumps, then automatically turns them back on in 30 minutes. Should work out great for feeding.

    Here's a few photos I took on Saturday morning:

    Full Tank Shot:

    I really like the rock in the middle that has about a 2" hole that goes all the way through the rock.

    Full Sump Shot:

    Water enters on the left, where I'm planning to have a bunch of LR rubble for bubble reduction. I'm still deciding if I want to use the filter sock on a long term basis, but am using it not to get the floating sand, etc., out of the water.

    Next, the water flows into the heater/skimmer section. The skimmer's sitting on a couple of rails that I glued to the sides of the dividers to raise it up. Heater sits under the skimmer.

    Next into a bubble trap, then into the return area. I've got two return pumps running right now (because I had two small-ish pumps sitting around). I also have a pump sending water from the return area into the refugium area, which is the right-most.

    Left Side of the Sump:


    Right Side of the Sump:


    Shot of the overflows from the rear of the tank:


    Tonight, I got the pH probe installed and started working on the ATO. The RKE allows for switch inputs (such as float switches) to control pumps, etc. Don't have it fully figured out yet, but I'm close.

    More progress reports to come as I can.
    -Chris

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    One quick followup question:
    I got to thinking tonight that one way to help cycle the new tank, and to minimize the differences in water quality between the two tanks (old and new) could be to setup the old tank to drain into the new sump, then have a return pump that takes the water back up to the old tank. The two tanks are sitting side by side in my garage, so it wouldn't be hard to pull together.

    Curious if anyone has any thoughts for or against. If for, when do you think a good time would be to hook them up? I'm thinking once the Nitrate values start going down would be a good time.

    Thanks,
    -Chris

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    Grand Master Reefer CarmieJo's Avatar
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    I think that plumbing them together once nitrites are 0 and nitrates are falling would be OK. I think you would want temp, SpG, pH, etc to be as close as possible.

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    Grand Master Reefer rroselavy's Avatar
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    Hey Joyride-

    Sorry for coming to this thread late. Love the tank dimensions. Cool sump mod. If you need a bigger skimmer someday, I suppose you could just combine the drain and skimmer compartments. What return pump(s) did you go with? My Eheim 1260 works like a champ, and just bought a spare - but they aren't cheap and the footprint is pretty large. The 1260 does about 400 gph at a 4' head pressure, which seems like a good amount of flow through the sump to me.

    Your sump water runs a little high. How high does the water get when you turn off the pumps? If you add the 45 backflow to this sump, I'm afraid you might overflow...

    I really like my RKE as well. I am getting a weird "blip" of power going through my channels when my ATO controller shuts its pump off - but that is the only operational problem (and a seemingly harmless one at that) that I have encountered beside the known graphing issues. Please let us know how you like yours after a few months...

    I might recommend using a nominal amount of flow through the sump and getting a Vortech MP20 instead. I have a MP40W, and although the wireless features are interesting, I really just set it to random reef crest mode now. Knowing what I know now, I would have bought an MP20 (or two) instead (if it was out back then).

    BTW: There is a Group Buy on Vortechs at the reef2reef.com forum (deadline Jan 15th IIRC):

    Vortech MP20 & MP40 Group buy...

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    Thanks Carmie Jo. I was thinking along the same lines.

    Rrosesavy, that's a good point on the level of the sump. I would definately make sure that I can handle the backflow from both tanks, and will likely lower the water level in the sump to accomodate the extra water.

    The problem I've got at the moment is that I made the 3rd wall of my bubble trap too high and if the water level goes down too much, then I get a bunch of micro bubbles in the tank. However, I'm sure there's ways to mitigate that issue. Hopefully I could do it without having to drain the sump and re-glue that piece. That would really suck. Slowing down the water flow might also help with that too. Hmmm.....

    Also, thanks for the tip on the Vortech group buy. I've been really eyeing those guys and had pretty much made the decision to get the 20. My only bummer on the Vortech's in general is that I can't control them from my RKE. However, on the ReefCast podcast a while back, there was some allusion to some type of integration with the RKE at some point in the future. Strictly speculation and inference, but it would be freakin awesome if it was true. I PM'd the guy over at Reef2Reef to get pricing info and am really hoping it'll work out.

    Later,
    -Chris

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    What's your opinion on 1 vs. 2 MP20 pumps? My concern is the flow at the opposite end of the tank if I only have one. I know these things put out massive amounts of flow, so maybe I only need one. Since I've never played with one in person, I'm curious about what you think on a 48" tank.

    Thanks,
    -Chris

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    Grand Master Reefer rroselavy's Avatar
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    My tank is only 30" wide, and I have a single MP40W on the back wall. Although preferred, I've never had it on the end since I have a 2 year old son who could reach. I only have my MP40W on 1/3rd power, probably about 1600-1800gph. If I crank it up more than my DSB becomes disturbed on the front and back of the tank. If I had it on the end, I think I could higher.

    A 48" tank is a bit longer, but I think you could do it with one. The flow will be far more diffused at the other end, but the water will flow. A review on MD said the following:

    Just installed the Vortech MP20 on my 48" wide/65g rimless and it performs great. It's very sleek and the design helps keep the power cord clutter minimal. The flow is very broad and provides current all the way to the other end of the tank. I have fine substrate and the current is gentle enough not to disturb the sandbed. When you fine-tune the alignment of the magnets, it's VERY quiet! I'm glad I went with the MP20 (instead of the 40, but can always upgrade later) since this one unit seems to provide more than adequate flow, and my sump return line provides opposing current.
    Two would give you more even flow and allow for more fine tuning with positioning, randomizing flow, and flow rates. I would go onto RC and see if you can dig up some threads on the "one or two" topic.

  21. #21
    Assistant Moderator rayme07's Avatar
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    Hi Chris the tank and the sump looks good I like it a lot. Also the rock work looks cool especially the one rock with the hole in the middle does look neat. Thanks for the update.
    Ray or Raymond
    There is no elevator to success in marine tanks. You have to take the stairs.


    Raymond's 30 gallon tank
    Raymond's 60 gallon tank


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    Quote Originally Posted by rroselavy View Post
    Hey Joyride-
    Your sump water runs a little high. How high does the water get when you turn off the pumps? If you add the 45 backflow to this sump, I'm afraid you might overflow...
    Missed this question earlier. When my pumps are turned off, I've got about 3 inches of room at the top of the sump after the backflow from the DT finishes. The water level only goes up about 2 inches from the regular level when that happens. I think that gives me a pretty good safety margin incase my return spout gets pushed down a little too far. I am also planning on drilling some small holes in the return line as a second backup to break the back siphon.

    Adding the 45 will be interesting. When I had it going into a sump before, it would backflow about a inch down in the DT -- which was 24" x 18". The new tank is about 36" x 18", so the 1" of backflow should still be contained. I'll still do a lot of testing to make sure though -- it really sucks to have a tank leak all over the floor.

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    Well, there's been some activity on the tank in the past week since I've posted.

    The day after I posted last, I got a big ole brown algae breakout in the new tank and all of the params settled in to about zero, so I went ahead and connected the two tanks into the sump and let them run together for several days.

    I've also been shopping for circulation and found a LFS that was having a "last weekend before Christmas" sale on MP20 and MP40W pumps. I bought an MP20 for about $250, plus tax this afternoon (I called yesterday afternoon and begged him to let me come by today and pick it up). That thing definately puts out some water flow. I've got it stationed on the end of the tank with the overflow pointing down towards the other end. It really kicked things up when I first turned it on.

    All of the corals and fish seemed to like the additional water from the two combined tanks, so this afternoon, I transferred all of the livestock from the little tank into the big one after getting the Vortech installed.

    I am running into a problem with my LR. It seems that I have too much of it since many of my corals from the smaller tank are mounted to rocks and the way I had the rocks in the new tank doesn't allow for much in the way of more rocks. I did some work today taking out some of the new rock from the tank, while adding pieces from the smaller tank. I think I've got more to do on this tomorrow. Between the rock in the sump and that in the tank, I've probably got at least 100 lbs in the system, and the tank is a 60 gallon tank, so I think I've got some leeway to take out some of the new rock to make DT a little less crowded.

    I'll try and post some pics tomorrow of everything so you guys can see how things are coming together. A couple of the corals really seemed to like the new tank, with the additional lighting and additional flow. My green sinularia, especially, opened up very quickly and has already stretched to as big as I've seen it, just hours after a tank transfer. The various polyps are also looking good and my clam opened up right quickly and has a deeper blue color than before.

    Anyway, I'll try and get some pics up tomorrow after I've got things in order.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joyride View Post
    I've also been shopping for circulation and found a LFS that was having a "last weekend before Christmas" sale on MP20 and MP40W pumps. I bought an MP20 for about $250, plus tax this afternoon (I called yesterday afternoon and begged him to let me come by today and pick it up).
    Lucky dog. Let me guess, Socaltropicalfish? They seem to be the one place in Socal that sells the high-end stuff, and has good deals to boot. I wish I had more free time to drive down there...but I'm sure my bank account is happier that I don't.

    Glad your corals are enjoying the flow.

    As far as your rock is concerned, I think you can get rid of a few pounds and probably improve the flow through and around your rock structure. My 55g has 65# in the display and another 10 pounds of rubble in the sump. It is hard to tell if it is "enough", but I suspect it is.

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    Yep, Socaltropicalfish was the place. They're farther than Marine Depot from my house (Costa Mesa), but the sale they had over the weekend was amazing. I'm still signed up for the group buy on Reef2Reef though and will use the second pump as either a second in my big tank or to replace the two koralia's in my cube tank, once I figure out what I'm going to use it for.

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