Copperband Butterfly to control aptasia

[Joyride]

I've been reading theat Copperband Butterfly fish are good ones for controlling aptasia. I seem to get little sprouts aptasia every couple of weeks and they're getting a lot cleverer about hiding out in a place that's hard to get to with my Aptasia Control syringe.

Wondering if a Copperband would work in my tank.

Here's what I've got:
45 gallon "cube" aquarium (24x24x18)
20 gallon sump (actually holds about 15 when in use).
~50 lbs live rock
The tank's been running since about mid-March of this year

Livestock:
1 cleaner shrimp
1 clownfish
1 lawnmower blennie
1 watchman goby
1 pseudochromis

Inverts & Coral:
Several varieties of polyps
2.5" corcea clam
1 Frogspawn (not sure how many heads it's got now)
1 Green Sinularia
1 Acropora Yongi
Xenia
1 Georgian
1 cabbage coral (I think that's what it is)
1 Montipora Foliosa (plating)

Lighting is 4x 24" HO T5 bulbs

Tank parameters are very consistent at 0 for Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, and pH is stable as well. I've recently added an ATO system, so my salinity doesn't fluctuate as much when top off water is added.

My concerns are
1) I remember in the early 90s that these fish were very difficult to keep and often died soon after arriving at the LFS or hobbyist's home
2) Is my tank big enough?
3) How likely is it that the copperband will be hassled to death (literally) by the clown and pseudochromis?
4) Once he's eaten the aptasia in the tank, what do I feed him next? I've read that they're difficult eaters.

As always, open to any and all feedback, ranging from "Great Idea!" to "Don't be an idiot."

-Chris

[rayme07]

Hi joyride I found a few links for you on the Copperband hope they help.


Saltwater Aquarium Fish for Marine Aquariums: Copperband Butterflyfish

Copperband Butterfly

Copperband

[saltaddict]

Hi Joyride,

I have heard that sometimes they will take care of the problem and sometimes they won't. Every fish is different.

I had a lot of aptasia that had hitched a ride in some macro algae in my fuge. I put 1 peppermint shrimp in and within a few weeks they were all gone.

Good luck

[Phurst]

Copperbands are still very difficult to keep. I've tried 2. The first, thoug it ate at the LFS never ate anything in my tank, including aptasia, and died about a week in. The second also ate at the LFS, and would pick at prepared foods in my tank, but after it ate all the aptasia, it starved and died. Seeing one eat at the LFS is not an indicator it will eat for you. I tried the same food and method the LFS used, but I think sometimes just being moved is enough to make them stop eating. They will also pick at clams, which I see you have. They really are a beautiful fish, but I really don't see myself trying another anytime soon.

[Joyride]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I've had too many things die in my tank and think I may pass on the copperband for now. Perhaps when I have that 250 gal dream tank setup, I'll think about adding one of these guys.

I did have peppermint shrimp before, but I think they all got eaten by a pistol shrimp I had in the tank for a while. (That would be the same pistol shrimp that literally had a pile of snail shells outside his cave as well.) I may give one or two of those guys a try instead.

Are there any worries about peppermint shrimp being compatible with cleaner shrimp? I've also recall reading that peppermint shrimp are also hit and miss on eating aptasia. True?

[Phurst]

No compatibility problems. Just make sure you really get pappermints instead of camel shrimp. They look very similar, and LFS sometimes have them mislabeled. Camel shrimp are not reef safe.

[spanko]

Also make sure that the Peppermint you get is not the Lysmata californica, as they are not Aiptasia eaters. You want to get Lysmata wurdemanni.

[dillan]

I have a copperband in my 46gallon for about a year now . Luckily he ate whatever i put in the tank from day one mysis enriched brine bloodworms now he even eats flake. One thing i will say is if you find one that eats and decide to get it they will definately hunt down every feather duster you have along with the aptasia.

[poppin_fresh]

dillan,
You got lucky...congrats on your Butterfly success. I've tried 3 and only manged to get one past a few weeks. They are my favorite fish, but they are so hit or miss I would never recommend one. I wish I had gotten lucky like you.

[dillan]

Yeah i would say i definately lucked out i figured i would be borrowing rocks full of aptasia from everyone i know to keep it going but instead the first time i fed the tank he was eating. They really are very cool fish constantly swimming aroung picking the rockwork for tidbits it's a shame so many of them are hard to get eating frozen food.Some fish food company should start making frozen aptasia .

[PhotoJohn]

CCB are not reef safe either, keep in mind they may munch corals

[bklearjet]

I am a newbie to saltwater and bought a 29 Nano 6 weeks ago. It is a FOWLR but it has a finger leather and Xenia. Fish are a maroon clown, hippo tang, blue damsel, fire shrimp, and some snails and hermits. The tank now has about 200 aiptasia. I have Joes Juice, but that seems like a never ending battle to keep up with the problem. Three days ago I bought 4 Peppermint shrimp from my LFS, but they just hide out in the back. I thought that they would go crazy on the aiptasia as the LFS feeds livestock so rarely, but these ones do nothing and come out when I feed the fish brine and mysis.

Any thoughts on why the peppermints are not "in the mood"? Or does it take a while for them to be acclimated to the new surroundings and start feeding on my aiptasia?

I am considering getting a copper banded butterfly after reading many posts here and there, but still undecided.

Any thoughts on how to rid the tank of aiptasia would be appreciated.

[rayme07]

Hi bklearjet and welcome to TR.

Fish are a maroon clown, hippo tang, blue damsel,

I don't mean to be the barer of bad news or anything but your tank is way to small to hold that hippo tang. You need at least a 75 gallon tank that is 6' long. Tangs swim miles and miles a day and need lots of room and putting him in a 29 is like putting a dog in a small pen for the rest of his life. I would suggest taking him back to you LFS for credit and get something more suitable for a 29 gallon.

Three days ago I bought 4 Peppermint shrimp from my LFS,

It could be a Camel Shrimp that is not reef safe. Is there a way you could get picture if you don't mind. So we could identifie it better thanks

I am considering getting a copper banded butterfly after reading many posts here and there, but still undecided.

For your 29 gallon I wouldn't recommend a copper band for many reasons. It minimum tank size is 50 gallons or greater and normally they don't really make it in captivity now there is some that do but I haven't herd many that do. Here's a link for you for more info. Thanks

Saltwater Aquarium Fish for Marine Aquariums: Copperband Butterflyfish

[CarmieJo]

Hi Bobby and to TR.

First I would recommend that you don't put any more fish in your tank. The maroon clown can grow to be 6" long and the hippo to nearly a foot! I would recommend seeing if the LFS (did they sell them to you?) would let you trade them in for more appropriate fish. Ocellaris or percula clowns would be a much better choice. Tangs swim hundreds of miles in the ocean and even when small tend to get stressed out in small tanks. Most people recommend that they should have a tank that is 6' long.

Even if you didn't have these fish in your tank I would not recommend a copperbanded butterfly. They are often delicate and even experienced reefkeepers have difficulty keeping them.

Are you sure that you got true Lysmata wurdemanni peppermint shrimp like this Peppermint Shrimp - Group of 5 (Lysmata wurdemanni) and not Rhynchocinetas durbanensis camelback shrimp like this? Camelback Shrimp (Rhynchocinetas durbanensis) The camelbacks are often sold as peps but they don't eat aiptasia.

[CarmieJo]

Raymond, we did it again! I'm glad that we agree with each other!

[rayme07]

Raymond, we did it again! I'm glad that we agree with each other!

I know that is so weird, Oh well now everyone who reads this post gets twice the information. lol Im glad we agree to.

[bklearjet]

The orig owner of the tank said that he had the Maroon for 3 years in this tank. As far as the Hippo, I have no knowledge of it's life here, but he is only 2 inches long.

The peppermint shrimp look like the pic you sent, thanks.

The tank is quite established, and I used the "old" water from the transfer to my home to fix an algea problem. Got it back in "cycle".. although I am having a hard time understanding this "cycle" thing.

I also have two freshwater tanks, biocube14 and a 3 gal fresh that have been great for years. I have learned with those that all I have to do is change water every week, at about 25%. I have been doing this with the salt, and fish are ok and happy.

My prob is with the aiptasia though, I want an natural solution to kill the aiptasia, but I am considering turning the tank into a FO tank to eliminate the aiptasia.

I have thought of killing the aiptasia by extreme means. What do you think >>> 1. freezing the rocks. 2. putting them in RO water. 3. Setting them in the patio until all life dies in 2-3 days. 4. just scrubbing them in saltwater to remove a major part of the aiptasia.

I have great coraline on the rocks, and don't want to loose it, But my main interest is the fish and critters. So If i can' kill the aiptasia, I'll go to FO.

I appreciate your advice, and will continue to attack with Joes if you think so.

Bobby

[Joyride]

I've had pretty bad luck with extreme measures.

FWIW, after my original posts, I went down to an LFS and bought two peppermint shrimp. I confirmed they were the Lysmata wurdemanni kind with the owner. She said yes, and I hoped.

After adding them to my tank about two weeks ago, I haven't seen either of them a single time. Not once. Interestingly though, the aptasia I had in the tank has disappeared. My only conclusion is that at least one of the shrimp survives (hopefully both) and that they're really shy and only come out after lights out.

Quite some time ago, I had some shrimp that had been sold to me as peppermints, and they came out all the time for feedings, but never ate the aptasia. Those guys eventually disappeared and we eaten, I believe, by a very predatory pistol shrimp that I had for a while.

So, the super-social, out all the time, "peppermint" shrimp I had never ate aptasia. The super-shy, never out, peppermint shrimp seem to be doing the job. Obviously, this is empirical evidence of the worst kind (two examples don't prove anything), but it was my experience. I also can't confirm for sure that the new peppermints are still alive and are the cause of the aptasia in my tank disappearing.

Best of luck getting rid of the stuff, and don't get a copperband.

-Chris

[CarmieJo]

Definitely don't scrub the rocks. The aiptasia reproduce by pedal laceration and you could wind up with even more. You could pull the rock out and freeze or boil it and that will kill the pests but you will destroy the bacteria needed to filter the tank.

So about the cycle. What happens is that the fish and critters excrete ammonia which is toxic. An aerobic bacteria converts the ammonia to nitrite which is still toxic but another aerobic bacteria takes that and converts it to nitrate. Nitrate is not as harmful to fish but is toxic to corals. Deep within the LR and at the bottom of a DSB anaerobic bacteria take the nitrate and convert it to harmless nitrogen gas.

Aerobic bacteria need oxygen and live on the surface of the LR and sand. Anaerobic bacteria live in zones with little to no O2.

Feeding them Joes Juice works but with that many it is time consuming. What is the pH and alk in the tank? You could make a paste of kalkwasser and coat a small section of them with it but you could have undesirable side effects. It is caustic and will kill stuff ir is gets on it. Kalk will raise the pH in your tank.

[bbl_nk]

BK,

Here is a great breakdown of the "cycle" of the biological filter in your aquarium. Once you grasp the nitrogen cycle, it really helps in understanding what happens in your tank and the things we do as aquarists that impact it (overfeeding, not cleaning, etc). There is a great little flash animation about halfway down the page:

Reef Sources Guide - Biological Filtration

[CarmieJo]

Did you read this article? Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine - Breeder's Net: Easy Berghia Nudibranch Propagation

[spanko]

Here is another great article on the process of a tank maturing.

Reef Central Online Community - Maturity Issues

[bklearjet]

bbl_nk, thank you for the link. It breaks down the processes and gives a basic tour of what is needed in simple terms. That's what I was looking for! I never knew that "CYCLE" was referring to nitrogen. As basic as that sounds, now I know. But it seems to say that "cycle" is for new tanks. I thought it was a process that happens all the time. I am so confused

Anyway, all livestock are doing good, except for the finger-leather. The maroon clown moved it ti the end of the tank. I replanted it last night, moved the sand back in place as the maroon loves to move the sand. Now tonight, the finger-leather is covered in sand again. I want to move the finger to a better place, but I don't know where. Can it be placed on the wall of LR? Or does it need to be in sand?

Looking for advice on this please.

Bobby

[bklearjet]

"You could pull the rock out and freeze or boil it and that will kill the pests but you will destroy the bacteria needed to filter the tank."



If I do this in stages, as I have about 20-30 rocks, and keep the clean rocks in a second tank, or even rotate them a bit, would that harm the tank? My filter, bioballs, live sand, etc should keep the tank healthy I think. Will the live rock keep the coraline?

Also, I have a nano cube 29. It has a filter sponge on the first intake, then the water travels to the balls. How often should I clean the sponge filter? I cleaned it almost thoroughly a few weeks ago and I got a bad algea problem. I did a water change using the original water from the seller of this tank, and the algae prob went away. P.S. this tank was set up using water from the LFS. That's why I may have had the algae prob to begin with. I have been doing regular water changes every week, about 20-30% using water from the LFS, and the livestock is doing well.

Thanks,
Bobby

[CarmieJo]

Bobby,

People often talk of the cycle as a single event but you are correct, it is an ongoing process. Sometimes folks believe that once the initial nitrogen cycle has run its course their tank is "mature" but this is not so. I highly recommend this Eric Borneman article The Building of a Reef (tank) on cycling and maturity.

Your leather should be mounted on LR. Over the long haul I don't think it will do well just stuck in the sand. Of course my maroon would just head butt it off the rock if it wasn't firmly attached and it sounds like yours is pretty much the same. Is it mounted on anything right now?

I am not sure that you will have success if you try to pull rocks out and sanitize them even if it is one or two at a time. First you will be affecting the biological filtering capacity of your tank and may run into problems with nitrate and or algae. Second I think the aiptasia on the remaining rocks could reinfect the clean ones when you return them to the tank. Coralline algae would be killed by baking or boiling.

By the way, bio-balls are not good for corals. They are very efficient growers of the aerobic bacteria but it stops there so you end up with a nitrate problem. Bio-balls are fine for FO systems because fish tolerate nitrate better. I'd pull them out about 25% at a time if you want to keep corals.

I don't use the sponge in my nano. If you are going to I would clean it weekly. You probably got the algae problem because of detritus and bacteria that had built up in it. When you pulled it out you could have released detritus back into the tank, fertilizing the algae. Then when you washed it our you rinsed away the bacteria and you probably had a nutrient spike. (Nutrients are things like ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.) If you think about fertilizer the primary component is nitrogen.