Nano tank or 30 gallon tank with 20g sump?

**damopower** · 09-17-2008, 06:55 AM

Hi there, first post here, love the forum and the podcasts.
I'm determined to go SW after being in FW for a year. There is a heck of a lot to learn but I'm enjoying the journey.
So I have a 30g and 20g "Juwel" glass tanks that I thought I could convert to a reef tank and sump/ fuge, with the idea to possibyl go FOWLR at first and then as I get expeiriance move on to soft corals and LPS. With researching things such as: lighting, overflows, drilling, skimmers, pumps, topups, plumbing, I am getting a bit overawed by the whole thing...
Now the other option is to go with a 30 gallon nano tank, where everything like that is taken care of.
I think there would be a steeper learning curve with the two tanks but I think the tank might be more
stable in the long run and that I would learn more...but the cost seems as expensive if not more than buying the entire nano setup, even though I already have the two tanks.
So what to do? I'd like to hear the opinion of some of you helpful guys on this forum.
Thanks so much
damien

**WILDTANG** · 09-17-2008, 06:34 PM

Welcome to Talkingreef. I am New to this site also. I have found the best and friendliest advice from this community. Oh and welcome to the marine hobby. I have had 3 nano cubes, all 12 gal FOWLR. I loved them, but I would have rather of had a small tank with a sump and and/or a fuge. Now i say "bigger is better."

**coralife** · 09-17-2008, 06:48 PM

It wouldn't be a bad idea to convert one tank into a sump. It should be drilled though. You do not want to use a Hang on the Back Overflow box as it will flood your floor and ruin your carpet. The added water volume from the sump will also be useful for beginners.

The other direction to go is to keep 2 nanos, but do different creatures in both tanks.

Here is a pic of a 20 gallon nano tank I'm working on in the store, 1.5 months old.

Jake

**rayme07** · 09-17-2008, 06:52 PM

Hi damopower and

to TR

I personly would go with the 30 gallon with the sump. I come to like bigger tanks and think they are easer to handle. But if you want more of a chalange and weekly water changes Iv herd, then the nano is for you. Hope this helps alittle. Also jake the tank looks great.Thanks
Raymond

**CarmieJo** · 09-17-2008, 11:38 PM

Hi Damien and

to TR.

I would go with the 2 tank set-up, it will be more stable.

**rroselavy** · 09-18-2008, 12:15 AM

I also suggest the 30g DT, with the 20g as a sump. You'll have a place to put a decent skimmer, a refugium section and keep the noise in the stand. As a side bonus, the sump will probably increase your overall water volume by 10g - which is always a benefit.

I would recommend drilling the display tank for the overflow as opposed to going with a HOB siphon based overflow. More foolproof. Equipment and instructions for drilling cn be found at glassholes.com and bulkreefsupply.com.

You will have to make an overflow pipe and overflow tower or troth to collect the surface water, which is the most concentrated water for skimming. A full length "Calfo" style overflow is supposedly best for maximum surface skimming, but most simply build a corner or center overflow tower with acylic, complete with drain teeth. "Durso" and "Stockman" pipe assemblies are most common for overflows, allowing air into the pipe to reduce gurgling/back pressure.

Your sump can be divided into 3 sections, Drain/Skimmer area, Refugium area, and Return area. This can be done by constructing simple baffles that divide the sections while preventing skimmer/overflow bubbles from reaching the return compartment where they may get sucked up and spit out in the DT. Some good sump info can be found at melevsreef.com. There are also some podcasts on how to build a DIY sump.

It is difficult to recommend a skimmer for tanks less than 55-60g. This seems mostly because of skimmer pump design/efficiency. There are a lot a people who oversize their skimmers because they feel that manufacturers overrate their skimmers. This is somewhat true, but more recent skimmer offerings are becoming more accurate.
Whatever you do, do NOT skimp on the skimmer. The skimmer is really going to help rid your tank of dissolved organics, and will help increase your tank's longevity. Worth every penny to get a decent skimmer when you think of all the money we put into our tanks. You could get away with no skimmer and do more aggressive water changes, but that practice will be more tedious and you may fall behind. For current skimmer offerings, this chart is a good starting place. A Tunze 9002 may be a good choice for a quiet compact skimmer.

For a return pump, I like the Eheim pumps. A Eheim 1260 may be a good reliable option.

HTH, and welcome to TR.

**damopower** · 09-18-2008, 06:49 AM

Thanks for all the help guys, you have made my mind up to go for the tank and sump instead of the nano tank.. That means a lot more questions from me though.

Hope you can bear with me, I'm not very intelligent really.

I would recommend drilling the display tank for the overflow as opposed to going with a HOB siphon based overflow. More foolproof.

In one of robs vidcasts I see he has a HOB overflow which seemed to work fine, I had intended on doing that, but I am willing to drill the tank. The only thing is that I am not sure where to drill it i.e. how far up the tank? How many inches below the proposed water line should it be drilled? I take it that you would need to drill only one hole for the outtake from the display tank? The return would come in over the top right?

You will have to make an overflow pipe and overflow tower or troth to collect the surface water, which is the most concentrated water for skimming. A full length "Calfo" style overflow is supposedly best for maximum surface skimming, but most simply build a corner or center overflow tower with acylic, complete with drain teeth. "Durso" and "Stockman" pipe assemblies are most common for overflows, allowing air into the pipe to reduce gurgling/back pressure.

Sorry here, but I am not sure what is meant here? I looked up "Calfo" overflows but thought that might take up a bit too much space in my tank. When you say overflow tower, do you mean a section that goes to the bottom of the tank or merely a box built around my driled hole? I hadn't seen or hear of Stand pipes til now either, they are a way to reduce noise right? Again in Rob's vidcast, I don't recall seeing a standpipe, I must be missing something.

Thanks for the advice on skimmers and pumps if anyone has any other advice on skimmers, pumps or my proposed setup please, please chime in .
Thanks to all
Damien

**rroselavy** · 09-18-2008, 01:25 PM

I tried to post a looong response but all I got was this:

Your submission could not be processed because a security token was invalid.

If this occurred unexpectedly, please inform the administrator and describe the action you performed before you received this error.

Pressing the BACK button caused my text to be wiped out. AAARRRGGHH!!!

Perhaps later I will muster up the energy to rewrite the response...

**rroselavy** · 09-18-2008, 01:46 PM

In short:

Go with the HOB overflow if you want, but get a good one with a hole at the top for a small pump to keep the air bubbles from breaking siphon. CPR Aquatics makes a good one.

Some links for Standpipes:

dursostandpipes.com
stockmanreef

Tigahboy's Standpipe Thread < Nice diagrams, parts list and flow rate chart.

The Calfo Style Overflow Box is not necessary, it merely maximizes the surface skimming ability of your overflow. Most people simply have one or two overflow towers, depending on the size of the tank. In a small tank you could have one box toward the upper left or right rear corner if you want.

One interesting note that Calfo offers is to not aim powerheads at your water surface. People sometimes do this in effort to promote gas exchange. The turbulence actually mixes the floating organics at the surface back into the water instead of allowing it to be more efficiently skimmed by your overflow. If your overflow is effective you should not see any film at the surface anyway.

Please note, my 55g has no overflow box. It is a wide (40mm) standpipe hose fitting in a "dry" tower with a grate in front of it.

**damopower** · 09-19-2008, 07:53 PM

Hi there, thanks for the feedback. Maybe I am being stupid here , but I still don't understand the idea behind the standpipe? Is it just to cut down on the noise of the water being drawn down to the sump? Do all aquaria have it? On a side note I have got a jewel lido for my display tank which is 120 litres or nearly 32 gallons. What size hole would I need to drill? Would one hole be enough for the drain pipe? I Also is it better to have flexible hosing or rigid hosing feeding to the sump?
I hope these don't appear too stupid questions but as I am thinking about drilling holes in my tank I want to be sure.
Thanks
Damien

**CarmieJo** · 09-19-2008, 10:10 PM

Damien, standpipes cut down on noise.

**damopower** · 09-20-2008, 06:34 AM

Hi there, I decided against drilling and was thinking of going with an Eshopps overflow box. Has anyone used this overflow? Using an overflow box would mean not using a standpipe right?
Thanks Damien

**rroselavy** · 09-20-2008, 01:35 PM

I wouldn't get an HOB overflow box without a bleed hose for extracting bubbles with an Aqualifter pump. If bubbles build up in the tube that carries the water over the edge of the tank, it can break your siphon. Then your pump will pump most of the water in the sump up to the tank, run dry and possibly overheat, and cause your tank will overflow.

It may be possible to use a Level controller in your sump to defeat your return pump if the level gets to low, but IMHO with a HOB siphon-based overflow I would probably seek the assurance of having a bleed hose for bubbles AND a level controller for the return pump. Maybe I am paranoid, but I do not want water on my wood floor.

**damopower** · 09-22-2008, 10:49 AM

Thanks for the advice rroselavy. I think I am getting a bit of an idea of the way I am going to go:
I am going to go with the eshopps overflow box as it seems better able to keep siphon going than the CPR models. From the overflow down to the 20 gallon sump, I will have an Aqua C Urchin skimmer. Then through the fuge and pumped back up via the Eheim 1260 based on the above reccomendation and good reviews on the web. I am thinking about installing a closed loop system with a SCWD wakemaker for water circulation. This is basically a straight copy of the closed loop on Melevsreef.com - Closed Loop
This would be externally pumped perhaps with the Mag5 pump that melev uses..
Barring the actual design of the sump I think this will be an ok setup. Opinions please?
Thanks everyone

**damopower** · 09-24-2008, 10:02 AM

Morning bump

**bbl_nk** · 09-24-2008, 01:21 PM

I haven't heard much on the eshoppes overflow, but the baffles you see keeping the U tube underwater at all times will keep your siphon. Many people flame the HOB since there may be bubble buildup, but is something that will build up over time so if you check it out daily, you shouldn't have that problem. If you have good flow, the air will pull right though. Another option you may consider is one of these: Glass-Holes.com dope aquarium stuff : Nano Complete Kit

I think the closed loop will be fine for your flow. Are you going with the 3/4 or 1" SCWD? the 1' is beefier and has a removable top so you can get in and degunk in case of a clog.

**damopower** · 09-24-2008, 06:48 PM

Ok, based on what I have read and heard on one of the podcasts, I've decided to drill my tank. Having looked at a few vids on youtube and reading around the forums, it seems that it is not as hard as people might think. I am going to go ahead and order an overflow kit from glass-holes.com which comes with the over flow box , bulkhead and drill bit required. For some reason it also comes with a t-shirt lol.

I would still like to know is it better to have rigid (PVC) piping or flexible piping down to the sump or does it matter?
Also should I still be thinking about a standpipe?

Cheers
Damien

**keith p** · 09-27-2008, 01:10 AM

Glass-holes rocks!

I've run both soft and hard piping. My current preference is hard drain and soft return.

**damopower** · 09-27-2008, 04:18 AM

did you just run an elbow straight from the bulkhead down or did you put in a standpipe?

**keith p** · 09-27-2008, 09:46 AM

He said he is using a glass holes overflow kit. they are very well designed and VERY quiet.

I'm using their kit too

**damopower** · 09-27-2008, 02:16 PM

Sweet, now all I have to do is work up the courage to actually drill my tank

**keith p** · 09-27-2008, 02:49 PM

Whoah, my last post came out wierd. Let me go back over that.

The glass holes kit includes a vent tube that goes in the elbow coming out of the bulkhead. The overflow box is baffled.

**bbl_nk** · 09-27-2008, 04:14 PM

Damien,

Did you watch the drilling video on Glass-Holes? I was going to drill my 75g but with the vote of confidence from my fiance (it was her gift to me BTW) was not there and she said if you want to risk cracking it and be without a tank, go for it

So I went with a HOB overflow. Had a few challenges getting it dialed in but its rocking now! No bubble buildup, no aqulifter, etc. The water movement is so damn fast, if bubbles get in they suck right through so fast you can't see it. I also clean my u-tube with a bottle brush once a month.

Maybe check with your local club to see about drillers in your area. Remember, go S-L-O-W, keep it wet and start your hole at an angle like the video. Beer and taunting from other males usually also helps with courage

**CarmieJo** · 09-27-2008, 04:29 PM

You could also check with LFS in your area and see if any of them offer drilling.

**damopower** · 09-27-2008, 04:38 PM

Hey Bbl_nk, yeah watched the glass-holes vids. Pretty good, and there are a heap more up on youtube. I am going to do some practice runs on some random sheets of glass til I get confident. I was going to go with the hob overflow, but so many people seem down on it because of the what if factor that I figured I didn't need any extra worries with the tank than I already have. Now I have to still figure out how to configure my 20 gallon sump/fuge and what sort of lighting to use. So if people want to advise me on that I'm all ears. I am taking my time checking out all the forums and podcasts and if I manage to get the tank up and running this side of Christmas I would be a happy man.....Slow and steady wins the race and all that.
I like the avatar btw. Black flag were an awesome band.