baby burrfish/ich

**laurabolyard** · 09-06-2008, 01:57 PM

hey guys, hhavent been here in awhile, I lost my mom unexpectedly recently, just havent felt interested in much.

Anyway, my baby burrfish that ive had for about 2 months now has ich. I dont know why or how, ive never had to battle it before. He is just fine otherwise and I see no problems with other fish.

I read that copper isnt good for scale-less fish and that I should use formalin and a product that I have never heard of, furazolidone/Nitrofurazone. I am getting ready to head for the LFS to find this product, but I will NOT do anything until I hear from someone who knows! He will be going into a 10 gallon. Thank you in advance for your help!
Laura

Miss you guys!

**laurabolyard** · 09-06-2008, 04:52 PM

ok, tank is set up, btw, its a 5.5. Just waiting to hear from someone who can help. I never did find anything with furazolidone/Nitrofurazone.

**laurabolyard** · 09-07-2008, 03:41 PM

please help

I am getting bits and peices of info all over the web and dont know which to trust. To copper or not to copper, to half dose copper? Formalin? Half formalin? fresh water dip? Fresh water dip with a drop of meth blue? Not dip at all bc ineffective?

**floodland** · 09-07-2008, 06:19 PM

How many fish are in the tank? As far as I understand it if there are other fish in the tank they will all carry ICH and all will have to be treated.

Other then that, I have read all the same contradictory information, there seem to be 2 ways to kill ICH, both require quarrantine and both require removing all the fish from the infected tank and allowing it to go fallow.

ATJ's Marine Aquarium Site - Reference - Marine "Ich"

**laurabolyard** · 09-07-2008, 07:05 PM

I am worried about the puffer, I know that they are sensitive to meds, AND suceptable to ich being that they are scale-less. I dont want to poison him! Thank you SOOO much for your reply. BTW, I only have a few fish, but getting to a couple of them may be problematic. I want to start with the puffer at least. qt is ready.

**floodland** · 09-07-2008, 09:48 PM

No problem.

From all the reading I've done it seems that Ich will eventually wear itself out over time, I believe they say about 11 months if you do nothing. But during that time the fish will suffer unless it builds up a immunity. The issue with treating one fish is that as soon as you re-introduce it to the tank it may get Ich again.

I know about fish that cannot be caught.. I've disassembled my tanks a few times now to get to specific fish

**dillan** · 09-07-2008, 10:25 PM

i don't know anything about burfish but if they are sensitive to meds could you try hyposalinity to rid the ich instead

**Seahorsedreams** · 09-08-2008, 12:18 PM

If you start treatment at different times, make sure you don't add them to the same QT. If the burfish comes out first... hypo him for the whole month and then when you get the others out they need to be treated in another tank for the full 4 weeks. The display needs to remain fallow for 4 weeks after the last fish is removed.

Don't put any fish back in until they themselves have received the 4 weeks and the DT is fallow for 4 weeks. Otherwise you'll be dealing with this again down the road.

Treating Marine Ich

**laurabolyard** · 09-08-2008, 04:18 PM

Thanx, I appreciate it. Anyone know HOW to treat a baby puffer? As I said, too much confliting info!!!!!

**Seahorsedreams** · 09-08-2008, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by laurabolyard

Thanx, I appreciate it. Anyone know HOW to treat a baby puffer? As I said, too much confliting info!!!!!

That's a link up there... that last sentence "Treating Marine Ich". I would go with the hypo. I know there's a lot of info out there, but once one undertsands the parasite you can see how some stuff can work and some stuff does not.

I'm using hypo right now on a Volitan.

**floodland** · 09-08-2008, 06:53 PM

As Seahorsedreams said Hypo is probably your safest way. There are really only two ways to treat Ich that are basically guarenteed to work as long as you follow them to the letter, Hypo or Copper. Past that you can let the tank go Fallow, let the fish suffer until the Ich dies off (normally around 11 months) for reasons that are yet unknown (something to do with the number of times the same strain can go through the life cycle) or follow a myriad of different "it worked for me!" types of solutions.

From all of my reading on Ich it seems that no one really knows %100 how to treat it without QT and time.

If you do decide to do Hypo be sure that you have a well adjusted salinity meter, read up all you can on how to do it correctly (I have never done it myself so I cannot elaborate) and carefully monitor the puffer while you do it. Watch for the normal signs of stress such as fast breathing, gasping at the surface, odd behavior and anything specific to puffers.

I hope this helps sorry that I cannot be of more assistance. There seems to be as much guessing as their is science in this hobby.

**Seahorsedreams** · 09-08-2008, 07:16 PM

Once Ich and fish are in your system, I don't believe them to die off over time. They can reporoduce in small enough numbers to only be occasionally seen, or in some instances, missed altogether.

I would like to read about where you said they can only go through their cycle so many times. I've never read about this in any of the scientific data I have read. Can you point me to a source?

**floodland** · 09-08-2008, 07:20 PM

Source: Marine Ich - Myths and Facts - Reef Sanctuary

14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.

**Seahorsedreams** · 09-08-2008, 07:25 PM

No offense by my next question... but have you read that in an scientific studies... or studies that referenced scientific data? That is just another forum thingy and is the problem with many of the myths... we just rehash and rehash and rehash.

That sounds snotty no matter what way I say it. But we have to remember, forums are just conversations. They cannot be quoted as scientific data or fact.

Originally Posted by floodland

Source: Marine Ich - Myths and Facts - Reef Sanctuary

14. INTERESTING FIND: If no new MI is introduce into an infected aquarium, the MI already there continues to cycle through multiple generations until about 10 to 11 months when the MI has ‘worn itself out’ and becomes less infective. A tank can be free of an MI infestation if it is never exposed to new MI parasites for over 11 months.

**CarmieJo** · 09-09-2008, 12:51 AM

Laura, I am so sorry to hear of your loss. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

Here is an article about ich Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion of this Parasite and the Treatment Options Available, Part I by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com. Be sure to click on the link to Part 2 at the end of it.

**floodland** · 09-09-2008, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by Seahorsedreams

No offense by my next question... but have you read that in an scientific studies... or studies that referenced scientific data? That is just another forum thingy and is the problem with many of the myths... we just rehash and rehash and rehash.

That sounds snotty no matter what way I say it. But we have to remember, forums are just conversations. They cannot be quoted as scientific data or fact.

Understood, I have been around long enough that I don't take anything personally. Here is the write up about the "11 month" cycle:

"Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora."

And here are some references :

A standardized method for the in vivo maintenance ...[J Parasitol. 1994] - PubMed Result

If you search for "c. irritans 34 cycles" on google you will get the following text:

JSTOR: A Standardized Method for the In vivo Maintenance of ...
Although 7 isolates of C. irritans were estab- lished and successfully passaged in mullet, none survived more than 34 cycles under laboratory conditions; ...
links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0022-3395(199404)80:2%3C288:ASMFTI%3E2.0.CO;2-J - Similar pages
by PJ Burgess - 1994 - Cited by 15 - Related articles - All 3 versions

Can't really give you more without doing a lot more research and possibly purchasing some papers or visiting my old college library I suppose..

Hope this is good enough

**Seahorsedreams** · 09-09-2008, 09:55 AM

Thanks, I will look those up. I keep a stack of Ich papers.

Here's the situation I'm in and why I'm not really going for the 11 month expiration. One of my fish has Ich. There has been no fish brought into my house in well over a year.... maybe 2. Wouldn't the parasite have run it's course by now?

Hey, I'm gonna start a new thread so we won't confuse anyone here and I would love to have a real discussion about it. :-)

Linky to Ich topic

**floodland** · 09-09-2008, 01:00 PM

I read somewhere that Ich can become somewhat symbiotic with its host and disappear until it thinks there is something new to infect. The default observed case is where a new life form is introduced to the tank and one of the fish who has been in there for a while develops Ich the next day. That fish already had Ich and in that case I would guess that the 11 month cycle is avoided as the Ich live on without going through the spawning.

The issue with Scientific studies is that they do them in very controlled conditions, just because they were unable to propagate Ich for more then 34 cycles in the lab does not mean that there is not something that could be allowing it to live on in your tank. Home tanks are not setup like a science lab, we are not trying to keep clean specimens of bad things for later testing..