Raising Bangaii fry

[Astrivian]

Wow! that was fast!

I just noticed one of my cardinals is hording baby cardinals in his mouth. But they caught me unprepared. How do i raise these?

Should i move them to a different tank, or will they be okay with clowns and cleaner shrimp?

[CarmieJo]

I've never had them but my LFS had a pair in one of their tanks and there are now baby bangaii swimming in the tank.

[Amphibious]

Wow! that was fast!

I just noticed one of my cardinals is hording baby cardinals in his mouth. But they caught me unprepared. How do i raise these?

Should i move them to a different tank, or will they be okay with clowns and cleaner shrimp?

Congratulations Astrivian. Raising Banghais is relatively easy. The male holds the eggs and the fry for about 24 to 30 days depending on temperature. Once they reach the free swimming stage, they will venture out and at the first sign of danger zip back to safety. The fry begin to leave the confines of the male's mouth when they get to big for him to house. Broods are relatively small from 20 to 30 being about average. At this stage they will be miniature adult replicas about 1/4" long. Because of their huge mouth Banghais are easy to feed. Newly hatched BS are eagerly taken and should be supplied in quantity several times a day, especially early morning.

At this point it is best to remove them to their own container. A 10 gallon tank is sufficient but must be prepared before hand. A word of caution... I found the fry susceptible to death simply by moving them. I had a ten gallon tank set up with their tank water, water parameters identical, and when I netted a couple and transfered them to the ten, they drifted to the bottom and several died immediately. I think they died of shock due to capture with a net even though I was careful and they were easy to catch. I was shocked. To prevent this, I tried siphoning them up with a 1/2" hose. I'd get one or two in the hose and stop the siphoning with my fingers and gently release them from the hose into the ten gallon. Several still went into shock but, most recovered and were fine. After a couple of weeks I began introducing them to flake food and frozen BS. They didn't present much of a challenge in raising after the initial challenges of moving.

Good luck. Pictures would be nice.

Dick

[Astrivian]

Hey thanks guys. I have been doing some reseearch on these and found a good article from Hawaii. It suggested making a fake diadema sea urchin with plastic wires and pvc caps so the fry could hide. At the moment the fry are still in the mouth of the dad, and i see fins and eyes poking out every now and then. So far, i have not seen any leave his mouth to eat. I tried target feeding some cyclopes-ez but they ignored it.

I still have an ugly (not that the fry care) 10 gallon hex tank. What would you put in there Dick? Would powerheads suck up fish and make fry sausage; what about an air bubbler? Maybe i could plumb the hex into the main tank for heat and O2, would that be worth doing? I could toss in a couple pieces of LR and a small ball of chaeto from the sump to give them some copepods to munch on.

I was thinking about trying to move the male cardinal while the fry are still in his mouth. If i can coax him into a jar or trap of some type i could move the lot without exposing them to air (theoretically reducing stress). Do you think this would be worth a try or might it stress the male to the point of spitting out or eating his young?

Oh, i will post pics when i find a new camera. My piece of junk broke.

[Astrivian]

Yikes, this process must have been farther along than i had thought. The fry were released into the water last night. There are just two that i could find though.

I moved the two fry out into a 10 gallon hex filled with tank water, a very small powerhead, a heater, and a huge ball of red algae. I put some cyclopes-ez in the tank a bit ago and saw one fish darting like he was eating it. Can't be sure though. I am heading to the LFS now to get the base for the brine shrimp napulli hatchery (the one in rob's video).

I read the bangais might spawn again as early as a couple of weeks if they are fed well. I think next time i might try to gently move the male out into the hex tank. The fry are nearly impossible to get out of my display tank; i had to deconstruct several rock piles before i could get to them, probably stressed them out too much, we will see. I need to build a phytoplankton raising setup so i can start raising real food.

This is so cool.

[CarmieJo]

Cool! I have been thinking about getting a pair.

[lReef lKeeper]

cool !! LET ME KNOW when these guys are big enough to ship/ i have always wanted a pair or small school of them.

[Astrivian]

Sure thing bobby. Just a note on the school. I tried three in a very lightly populated 100 gallon and one was beaten and killed by the others.

[CarmieJo]

I have heard that they are very hard to sex.

[Amphibious]

Banghaii Cardinals are impossible to sex, until they spawn. If you see them spawn you will see lots of side by side shimmering and at the point of egg release the female releases a ball of eggs and the male releases his milt. The eggs appear sticky because they are in a neat ball. The male instantly scoops the egg mass into his mouth. At this point the male will not eat again until the fry are released. That is a period of thirty days or perhaps a bit longer. If you didn't witness the spawning but, one of the fish has a swollen jawline and drooped throat area, that is the male. You will be able to see the egg mass if you can look straight onto the fish.

At this point the fish should be separated because the female will continue to eat and become gravid and ready to breed as soon the male is free of the current batch of fry. BUT, at this point, the male is not strong enough to handle 30+ days of raising another batch. He should be given at least 2 weeks of heavy feeding to re-condition him for the rigors of another spawn.

If you want Banghaii to pair, you need to begin with a group. As Astrivian pointed out, the problem with getting three is that if two pair off they will kill the third. Be prepared to move or give away the odd ball. If you buy six your likely to wind up with two pair.

These are very desirable reef fish that still command a fairly high price considering they are quit easy to breed and raise.

Dick

[Astrivian]

At this point the fish should be separated because the female will continue to eat and become gravid and ready to breed as soon the male is free of the current batch of fry. BUT, at this point, the male is not strong enough to handle 30+ days of raising another batch. He should be given at least 2 weeks of heavy feeding to re-condition him for the rigors of another spawn.

Right on Dick! I noticed my male has stopped eating again and i am worried his fish wife convinced him to take on more eggs! Poor guy.

He will likely spit these eggs out as i read they can do if the male hasn't eaten enough. That's okay, live and learn. He needs to put some fins down with his wife!

I have been feeding frozen mysis and brine with selcon and garlic extract, but i gather this is not a very well rounded diet. I have tried feeding Formula 2, but they just spit it out (the clowns like it though). What other foods would be good? I heard clams and scallops can be a nice addition and i just ordered some brine shrimp eggs and selco for enrichment.

[Astrivian]

The male is indeed holding eggs again, as of 1/21/08. I have decided to give TR a step-by-step post series on how i am raising them. Currently, the male is holding my second batch of eggs. The first batch produced 2 fry which are still alive and well after 14 days on their own. The strategies i have used thus far to raise them i will likely continue, albeit with some modifications.

Step 1.1 - Identify that the male is carrying eggs.

To recap briefly the breeding behaviors of these fish, the female releases eggs likely sometime late at night. The male then sprays the eggs with milt and then holds the egg clutch in his mouth for protection. This transfer of eggs is very quick and not often observed (I have yet to see an article where someone has witnessed the exact egg transfer process).

As you are not likely to observe the actual breeding process, look instead for the male to be holding the eggs. This is easily identified by the following signs:

1. Distended mouth area, like he is puffing his "cheeks" out.
2. The male will not eat when offered food, but the female will.
3. The male will hide in a shaded area.
4. If you can look into his mouth, you will see bright orange eggs.

Although i have not experimented with this as of yet, i would imagine it is important to have a shaded area for the male to go to. If this occurs in your display tank, as it does mine, there might be enough crevices in the rocks for him to hide. If not, a short length of 4 inch PVC pipe should do the trick (although it doesn't look as nice as live rock).

Step 1.2 - Now what?

The question now becomes: What do i do with the male? He will hold these eggs for about 15 days and then hold the live fry for another 15 days, on average. Once the fry are released they are under immediate threat of being eaten by anything that can fit them into their mouth (including their own father and mother!). If you intend on actually raising them for sale or trade, the fry should really not be left to fend for themselves in a populated display tank.

There seems to be some debate about what is easier to do at this point, and i will try both and report back. Option 1 is to move the male to another tank. Option 2: move the fry when they are released.

I tried Option 2, moving the fry, the first time and i can attest that this is not easily done. If you are not prepared or not able to move lots of rocks around your display, i suggest going with Option 1: move the male. The fry are very small (about 1/8 of an inch) and although they are easy enough to see, they find the smallest holes to hide in.

The trouble with moving the male, as i have read, is that too much stress on him can cause him to "spit." In other words, thinking he is saving his own scales, he spits the eggs or premature fry out to die. This is, of course, not what you want to happen (_1_). If you move the male, do not do so with a net. Exposure to air will likely be too stressful and may damage the eggs. Fish traps or even jars seem to work best for this.

This time around i am going to try to split the difference, so to speak, of option 1 and 2. I don't want to take the risk of stressing the male out and losing my clutch of eggs, nor do i want to destroy my rock work again to get the fry into the other tank. Since my display is long and rectangular, i can easily section off a side (about 1/4) with eggcrate and window screen. I will try to gently encourage the male to swim into a prepared corner and use the eggcrate to section him off from the rest.

In this case, a "prepared corner" means removing most of the rocks from the area, especially ones with hungry corals on them, and dousing the lights above this area with layered window screen. Just to make the male happy, i will also add a cut section of PVC for him to hid in. When the fry hatch, they will need some place to hide from the male, and for their own sense of security. I will discuss hiding places in further detail in the next post.


_1_ : As a note, i have read some studies where the keepers try to raise eggs to hatch without the male. None that i know of have had any success.

[CarmieJo]

Samuel, I will follow this thread with interest.

How did you get your pair? That is, did you buy a "pair" or did you just buy 2 or more fish and end up with a pair?

[Astrivian]

Samuel, I will follow this thread with interest.

How did you get your pair? That is, did you buy a "pair" or did you just buy 2 or more fish and end up with a pair?

I actually did this in a cruel way, accidentally. I randomly bought two and then ended up with people giving me two more. Even with my tank size, two of the fish were beaten and starved to death. When the pairs mate, so i gather now, the male is completely intolerant of any other cardinal in his zone.

They didn't have to die, thinking back. You could buy four and place them all into a tank. Dominant ones will show up very quickly, with the others hiding and not eating (even if you try and target feed them). Unlike me, take out the ones getting beaten down and transfer them to a home of their own, or to another person, back to the store, etc. The pair that's left is probably a mated pair, i would think.

I have heard various rumors on how to sex these. I can identify my male and female now, even when the male is not holding eggs. He has a more squared off jawline and body while the female is more of an oval. You can give this a shot when at the LFS, but i am not sure i could accurately identify males and females in a tank. These features may only show up when the fish are older as well. For example, i have absolutely no idea what sexes the fry are.

I will try to post some pics this weekend.

[CarmieJo]

I have heard that they are difficult to nearly impossible to sex until you see the male holding fry.

[Astrivian]

Update to Stage 1.2

I did indeed move the male to his own section on the side of the tank. This was not as easy as i first supposed! The catch was that the female would not leave his side; very comforting wife. So, they are both over in their corner. I doused the lights with two layers of window screen just to keep them relaxed.

The cardinals and the clowns spend several hours after this move looking at each other through the eggcrate. I think the cardinals think they are in fish-prison.

He is still holding the eggs, so the move wasn't too stressful for him i suppose. He found a spot to hide underneath a ball of red algae growing off the side of the glass. I will not clean any part of this side of the tank except the front of the display glass. I want as many copepods and isopods to grow and thrive over there to be fry food later.

This is day #9 (maybe day 10). Stay tuned to this thread! The eggs should hatch into fry around February 4.

[JustDavidP]

They aren't "impossible" to sex when they are mature. It's just hard There are some tell tale signs. None are 100% accurate, but you have a pretty good chance at sexing if you look close enough. This is kind of important because if you buy two adults or sub adults that are male, they'll probably fight hard until one dies of injury or starvation (from cowering). Again, by looking for some tell tale traits, you have a statistically better chance of pairing the fish.

The males are literally made to carry. Through evolutionary development, their jaws are boxier and larger, made to hold the berries. Females jaw line are narrower and pointed. For those of you who own dogs, you'll know what I mean... for the most part, a male dog has a bigger, boxier head. While the females of most species are more "dainty" and pointer in the snout. No, they don't carry their young in the mouth like the Banggai, it's just an analogy

Males DO have a longer "pennant" appendage on their dorsal fin. This is not a very accurate way to sex, as most males of the species battle, and therefore fin damage is probable.

The fry are susceptible to "fainting" when disturbed. I've lost many during transfer to the grow out tanks. In some cases, rigorous water flow can help re-oxygenate them and they could come around. Most, however, don't wake up. Freaky eh...like those fainting goats we hear about.

If you can, you really should give your boy a break from time to time. He WILL carry another clutch as soon as possible and this could take its toll on him. As you've noted, when carrying, he will refuse feeding. I know I can't go without my Big Macs for too long. Try catching him, keeping him in the fuge or something after he releases again. If you can't, don't rip apart your reef to get him. It's just worth a try.

Also, I lost a LOT of clutches by moving my male when he was holding young berries. Instead, try to wait until you literally see the "whites of their eyes". Meaning, when the try are close to 100% of development. At that time you WILL see them poking out of dad's yappa and taking a look see. Again, when I moved my boy too early, he stressed and expelled the undeveloped eggs.

If you are serious about breeding, read, read, and read more. I can personally attest to the wisdom and experience of Dr. Frank Marini, who provided guidance along my journey. I had the chance to talk more with him more on the subject when he visited my home town last year. *giggle* I went out for seafood with him. He's an incredibly smart guy, and more than likeable. He's downright personable. He's also one of those "Marine Saints" who will respond to the average hobbyist, and do so in a very professional, yet "layman" manner, making it that much easier to learn.

Some of his articles can be found here: Reefs.org: Where Reefkeeping Begins on the Internet - FAQ on Banggai Cardinals and here: Reefs.org: Where Reefkeeping Begins on the Internet - Captive care and Breeding of the Banggai cardinal fish Pteragon kauderni but I would also encourage you to "google" Frank and read anything he has to say on the subject matter. Again, he is very personable and continues to assist hobbyists whenever possible. He can also be found helping folks in his breeders forum at The Marine Depot here: Marine Fish-Reproduction, Care and Husbandry - by Dr Frank MariniDave

[JustDavidP]

Samuel,

For what it's worth, when you get more fry, you really don't need the "urchin" thingy If you start now, and make a 10 gallon grow out ready, using some LR rubble, and macro (I found caulerpa to be best.. fry can get trapped in the nooks and crannies of chaeto balls), you will be off to a good start. The fish fry love to hide, chase and play in the branching mess of caulerpa. A seasoned grow out will also contain mysid and pods and such that can help sustain the fry while you are slaving away at baby brine.

Shall I continue to add to your thread here? Or would you like to run with it? I've got some images and such from my breeding days.

Dave

[Reefbaby]

go for it Dave! I'd love to see the images!

Samuel - great thread! I can't wait to see your pictures! (by the way, I'm in CO again next month...would love to visit...)

[JustDavidP]

Okay.... Here's dad... looking like he's ready to blow lunch. Notice his gal to the left. She's got a more narrow looking, pointed jaw line.



In my system/program, for the first few weeks, I would raise the fry in my sump; the refugium side. So, in order to keep the fry from falling into the remainder of the sump, and becoming pump mulch, I built this divider. It's egg crate with wedding veil material and clamps:



This allowed me to keep them in the original system, without moving them, shocking them, or making them "faint". After a few weeks of plumping up on the wild pods, mysid, and baby brine in the fuge, I'd move them to a 10 gallon grow out.

They are very tiny when born. Look at them here, after riding the overflow, into the sump. The black object above is a float valve controlling top off in the sump:





Look at them as compared to a standard, glass thermometer

[JustDavidP]

Having gained some size and experience, I trap the babies with a plastic cup (long painful task) and move them to the grow out. The grow out has been set up and running for months and contains LR rubble, macro but no sand. Helps me to keep it clean. The tank is partitioned so I can run a hang on filter, heater etc. on the other side of a pen-plex divider so the fry aren't hurt. This system is really much like an off-line macro fuge. It's teaming with buggies. Water changes (percentage thereof) are done weekly, and excessive detritus is siphoned off the bottom with small diameter rigid tubing, connected to airline.

Some babes in the grow out. Note that when/if I used Cheato, I pulled the balls apart to keep them from becoming fry traps. Personally, if I have C. serrulata or C. Prolifera, I prefer not to use Chaeto. I may put some in the heater/filter side to promote pod and mysid populations.











You are going to want to grow out brine shrimp, and feed them within 24 hours. Once the shrimp go through a few molts, and become sub-adult, they have mouths, lose the yolk sac and are not very nutritious. No worries. Just feed them with phyto, paste, selcon, boiled egg yolk or something, to "Gut Pack" them before feeding the baby Banggai. You can grow them out in a simple "bottle hatchery" like I use here for the baby seahorses:



Otherwise, you want to start to provide frozen cyclopeeze, mashed frozen mysid and other prepared foods as they get larger. YOU HAVE to wean them off of the live BBS before too long, or they may own you. Introduce cyclopeeze first. They seem to relate to it as it is fed with the BBS. After you get them eating this (which is a great food for them by the by) you can introduce shaved mysid and other prepared marine foods.

Let me see if I can dig out more soonest.... Back to work.

David

[Reefbaby]

Awesome details Dave! As usual...you rock!
I can't believe how tiny those little buggers are....the fins look enormous compared to their body.

Can you show an overview of your "grow out" tank?

[JustDavidP]

See this, my seahorse grow out systems...



It's exactly the same, except on the left, where there are plastic plants and suction cups, I use rubble (size of golfballs) and macro, much like the right side.

The heater, filter etc. is all on that right side, away from tender baby flesh In the seahorse grow out, I split the tank almost 50/50. This keeps the seahorse fry and food in closer contact. In the Banggai grow out, I get the divider as close to the right as I can to make more room for baby fish and macro.

Dave

[Reefbaby]

cool...so for circulation, you're just using an air pump? Is that enough flow also for the macros?

[JustDavidP]

No... okay... let me back up

On the left, I use as many airline rigs (rigid tips on flex hose) as I need to keep things moving along. Otherwise, detritus will build up on/in the macro, and all heck will break loose. In a pony system, with the grow out chamber void of biological matter ('cept for the ponies of course) high flow is not really needed. Actually, the low flow helps me keep the floor clean. Nothing like trying to siphon in a swirlstorm. In the Banggai system, I used two airlines.

Also, keep in mind that on the right, I have a small cascade filter that takes water up, runs it through the filter pad, and cascades back into the tank. The divider does stop that "Flow" from going to the other side, but there is water exchange, filtration, and heating of the water in the other side.

Dave