Cyanobacteria Problem

[Nemesis]

This is a 29 gallon reef tank. A little history on it: I have always had a red cyanobacteria problem, at least that's what I believe it is but I've included a picture in case I'm way off. Okay, back in January 2007, I live where that huge blizzard hit and we lost power for about a week. No electricity, 8' to 13' snow drifts outside, the top of the car is visible but you're so not going anywhere, I'm dreaming of a white Christmas major overkill type stuff. So my 29 gallon drops to around 40º I think it was. My purple mushrooms disentigrated. My yellow tang and the other fish... pop cycles. Pretty much everything I had died. I left the tank in a suspended-in-time state out of depression until now. So for about 10 months, I've run the Coralife Power Compact on the same schedule as I did before. Protein Skimmer has been going, Emperor Filter going... So all the copepods, amphipods, bristle worms, my Queen Conch (whew), lots of Caulerpa nummularia, and other stuff has survived and has done well. Oh, and I bought a $2500 whole house generator for this winter so HA HA not doing it again !

My PROBLEM, and this is driving me nuts, this stupid red cyanobacteria is still growing !!! I have not put food in the tank for 10 months. Nitrate tests at nonexistent. Protein skimmer not skimming much of anything like it does when I feed fish on a regular basis. All water is RO/DI testing at 0 ppm out of the DI. What is the cyanobacteria living off of and how do I get rid of it !?!?!? Please help !!!

[clownfish4me]

red slime algae! i had to deal with it. i bought a red slime remover that is a yellow powder you mix with your tank water. i treated mine and in 3 days 80% of it turned brown and dried up. it says to treat twice and that took care of it all in less than a week. i bought mine at a lfs for $20, but i found it cheaper several places on line. below is just one site. i just wanted you to see the product i was talking about. by the way it had no noticeable effect on any of my corals, fish or invertebrates,

https://www82.safesecureweb.com/weba...me_remover.jpg

[clownfish4me]

i forgot to mention, i would suggest you remove as much of the slime as possible prior to treating. i used a scraper and siphoned it out as it pealed of the glass and rock. it comes of pretty easily. i made sure that i got it all with my gravel cleaner and hose. good luck....

[Russel P]

Increasing water flow helps tons. I'd be hesitant to add a chemical to remove it, since once a tank matures and stabilizes it usually goes away on its own. Marycin 2 will kill it, but like any antibiotic, it will disturb the eco-system for a long time. If it were my tank, I'd remove all I can manually, add a powerhead or two, and do a very large water change. You might find it doesn't come back in force at all.

[ReeferLogan]

Start w/Russel_P's manual removal advice, if after several weeks its still giving ya fits then try the chemical removal method given by clownfish4me...
Cheers,
Logan

[Danamck]

Clownfish4me -

I understand that the chemical you used was successful, but how long has it been since you used it? Has any of the cyano returned? It is my understanding that, unless the causes of the cyano is not addressed, chemicals are simply a temporary solution.

Nemesis -

In my own experience it took many months to finaly get the stuff removed. And the chemicals only provided temporary relief. I simply tried all the usual suggestions until the problem finally went away. In order of importance, IMO, here they are:

1. Water Changes (which included manual removal of the cyano via syphon) to get the phosphates down to undetectable
2. Increased water circualtion (powerheads - your new best friends)
3. Reduced lighting duration (including letting the tank stay dark for a few days, if needed - it works!)
4. Reduced feedings (they won't starve)
5. New light bulbs (if your's are old)

There are many more items that I'm certain I have forgotten. The big thing is that, in most cases, to win the battle against cyano is usually a long term affair. For those who have had success with the various chemical solutions ... congrads. They simply didn't work for me. Hope this helps.

[Nemesis]

Thank you clownfish4me, Russel P, ReeferLogan, and Danamck. I appreciate you all taking the time to respond !

I believe part of my problem, which I discovered by listening to a few more TalkingReef Podcasts today (I'm working through them), is that I bought a Prism Skimmer and that the skimmer is one of those things in life that you do not want to save money on. The reviews said the Prism is okay but users said that after having one and then going to an AquaC the AquaC was taking out tons of organics which evidently the Prism was missing. I apparently should have bought an AquaC Remora instead. You just gotta love this hobby for all the stuff we buy that now sits in a closet or the garage because we took a wrong turn at some point...

I have some powerheads in that afore mentioned closet so I'll add a few. Oh ! Also I came across a study that mainly concluded that a deep sand bed ( 3.6" for the study) was the most effective in dropping Phosphates through the floor. I only have about 1" of substrate because I started in the hobby as a freshwater keeper. I did notice on one reef site many reefers chose to not even use a substrate saying it made it easier going with nothing. Would that not make the tank far more unstable, since the deep sand bed, in the afore mentioned study, caused the tanks to become much more stable and as I said, drop the Phosphate ???

Here is a link to the study if anyone is interested. They are trying to prove if a Plenum is better than just a sand bed. I, don't care, but it gave me some good evidence toward deep sand beds and phosphate and alkalinity.

Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine - Feature Article: An Experimental Comparison of Sandbed and Plenum-Based Systems. Part 1: Controlled lab dosing experiments

[CarmieJo]

Nemesis to TR.

Wow! That is a bad cyano outbreak. I agree with going the natural route first. Scrape, siphon, change water, more flow, etc, etc. My one experience with cyano was after a fish sitter overfed a year ago. I upon returning home I fed every other day and did lights out. I increased flow, went from 1 - 10% water change a week to 4 - 5% changes and siphoned the stupid stuff with every water change. No matter what I did the vile stuff just kept coming back. After several weeks I finally resorted to using the chemical stuff. IMO, because I had already addressed the root cause it went away after 1 treatment and has never returned. Maybe another week of siphoning etc would have solved it. If I get another outbreak I will do the same thing, go the natural route and only resort to chemicals after several weeks.

BB tanks are easier to maintain as you can see the detritus and it is easy to siphon out. They are not more effective. I use BB in my QT tank. I prefer a DSB otherwise.

[Danamck]

Nemesis -

That's the great thing about this hobby. There are many correct ways to achieve success, not just one way. I believe you are correct about the skimmer. This is, IMO, the most important piece of filtration hardware to have. Don't skimp here. I have used, and still have on my 10 gallon coral QT tank, a AquaC Remora. It's a good skimmer. I do prefer Euro-Reef, but they tend to be more $.

Regarding the DSB vs bare bottom: once again, there is no right or wrong answer here. You can have a successful tank with either. AND you can have success with a 1" substrate. That's what I have. I understand the logic behind a bare bottom tank, I just don't like the look of them. I understand the logic in a DSB. I just don't like how they end up looking after a few months, and they take up space that could otherwise be used for more water. So I went 1" as a compromise. I do vacuum my substrate when I do my water changes, my one concesion to my "old school" ways! Anyway, most "experts" say the only substrate depth you want to avoid is one that is greater than an inch or two, but less than a deep sand bed. However, I'm certain there are many beautiful tanks with a 3" substrate depth as well!

[clownfish4me]

Clownfish4me -

I understand that the chemical you used was successful, but how long has it been since you used it? Has any of the cyano returned? It is my understanding that, unless the causes of the cyano is not addressed, chemicals are simply a temporary solution.

it has been just about a year and a half since i had to treat for it, and it was in my 55 gal. that i upgraded last month to a 90. and it has not returned. i had it only the one time, i believe it came in on some live rock and coral i bought. it was new to the tank at the time and although i had filtration and flow problems at the time. i do not think that was the cause for my particular outbreak but brought it in on the lr and allowed it to spread rather quickly. my mistake was not taking care of it before it was out of control. i really did not know if it was bad or not at first, by the time i found out what it was i tried taking it out manually but never got it all so it would return. thats when i found out about the medicine. i followed the directions and after the four day cycle was over i did a 25% water change. never to be bothered with it since.

after reading what everyone else has suggested, leaves me to ask a few questions myself, as i didn't know of some of the "natural" cures for this algae, or how it affects it so here they go.

1. Water Changes (which included manual removal of the cyano via syphon) to get the phosphates down to undetectable

i understand reducing the phosphates by doing the water changes, reducing the phosphates starves the algae of food, right? and is phosphates the only "food" for algae or is there other things that will allow it to thrive?

2. Increased water circualtion (powerheads - your new best friends)

i have only heard of this one recently, and i don't understand it. how does increased water flow help in getting rid of and help keep algae away? and does it help with other type algae's also? how do you know how much more flow your needing, or lacking? the reason i said i don't understand this one is because algae grows out of the filter returns and protein skimmer as well as a power head i have in the tank and that is in direct forceful flow and it seems to grow better there. so thats why I'm not computing on this and need some help understanding.

3. Reduced lighting duration (including letting the tank stay dark for a few days, if needed - it works!)

i know the algae is photosynthetic and needs light to grow, so i know cutting the light cycle helps, my question here is what damage or stress if any can can i expect my corals, clam and fish to go through? and are you suggesting 3-4-5 day's?

4.Reduced feedings (they won't starve)

i understand this one. but i still have a question., does feeding live phyto to the corals help algae grow or sustain it? does algae absorb phyto? cleaning the thin green film algae off the glass with the a magnet allows it to mix with the water. do corals and maybe my clam eat this while its in the water? i know it allows it to grow back fast.( i think i'm still going through a mini cycle due to my tank upgrade 3 weeks ago.) the brown algae i first had has now turned green. how long should this last? will it go away on its own once the tank has finished cycling? (I'm working on some underlying problems i have now also).

5. New light bulbs (if your's are old)

how does the old bulbs help the algae, or cause it? i know the older bulbs loose there effectiveness for corals, but how is it helping the algae? my newer bulb is only 7 month's old, the older bulb i had has blown and i now have a older bulb that was in the used hailed fixture when i bought it . i don't know how old it is. I'm using it as a back up until i can get another $50 bulb. i heard they are good for a year and that is when i try to change them out. i don't know all the differences in the different manufactures or what brand is most popular. or which ones last longer than others. and lastly, wouldn't new bulbs help the algae grow faster? yes i need help!

[fat walrus]

Have you checked your PH and KH? What about dissolved oxygen? Cyano will thrive in an environment that is low in PH, KH, and water flow.

[Danamck]

clownfish4me -

Good questions. And let me begin by saying that i am not an expert. The following information was learned first hand or read from various experts.

I'm glad the chemical treatment worked for you. I beleive the reason it did was that the cyano was brought into the tank on your LR, rather than occuring due to poor water parameters.

First off, cyano is NOT an algae, it is a bacteria. Typically high phosphates are the number one cause of an outbreak of cyano. However, when you go to measure the phosphate level in the tank, it can read low or undetectable. If you have a fair amount of cyano in your tank, this phosphate reading can be incorrect, as the cyano is utilizing the phophate as food, throwing off your measurement. FW is correct (of course) in that cyano can thrive in an environment of low PH and KH as well.

Increased water circulation does not keep cyano from developing. I have also seen cyano growing next to the output of a powerhead. The increased circulation helps "discourage" cyano from growing. The goal is to limit dead pockets in the tank where cyano can get a foot hold.

Yes - reduced (or no) lighting for a short period ot time is the natural way to have cyano die back. There is nothing wrong with your tank going a few days with no light other than the ambient room light, or going a few weeks with a reduced lighting schedule. (There are cloudy days all the time over our oceans.) As a mater of fact, there are many people who believe that you should let your tank "go dark" a few days every month or so (there's a whole thread on this on another forum that shall go nameless.) The people who have tried this have reported clearer water and healthier corals. I am currently trying this in my 180 (day 2) and will try it on my 240 next. I will start a thread reporting my results.

One of the big causes of phosphates is uneaten food, so this is where reduced feeding comes in. There are also many foods (flake in particular) that have higher than normal phosphate levels to begin with. The thing that amazes me is how little food your fish, and most corals, really need. In a mature tank, there should be a nice population of natural food for your fish. There are some exceptions (ie Anthias, who to need to be feed several times a day to thrive.)

I also know many people who have thriving successful reef tanks who never intentionally feed their corals. The corals simply eat what the fish don't. I'm not saying that this is good or bad, it is what it is. In your tank, I am not sure if the diatoms and algae you clean off the sides of the tank are coral food sources. Perhaps. They certainly can be for some fish. I do agree that your tank is going through a mini cycle ... very common when going from one tank to another.

Light bulbs - I'm sure there is some scientific evidence out there, I just know for a fact that old bulbs can be one of the contributing factors to a cyano outbreak. As bulbs age, their color spectrum and intensity changes. It appears that it can change to a spectrum that cyano prefers. A LFS had a huge cyano outbreak in one of their big tanks, and simply by changing the bulbs and manual removal, the problem went away in a few weeks.

I hope this helps. I guess the bottom line is that it's usually not one, but several factors that contribute to cyano. I do know that the sooner you treat the causes, the easier it will be to eliminate the problem.

[V]

dude painting your tank like this is out of season, blues are in at the moment!!

[Nemesis]

Fat Walrus:

PH: 8.2
KH: Very High. It's this really pretty deep aqua blue color on my sophisticated test kit.

Dissolved oxygen, no clue, sorry. I always figured it wasn't an issue with a skimmer. ?

veriann:

If the red was on a coral though I could totally pull it off.


Danamck:

"Typically high phosphates are the number one cause of an outbreak of cyano" In one article they named dissolved organics as the main cause. I'm not at all saying you're wrong, I'm just throwing it out there, no disrespect intended. Either way though, I increased my sand bed, and according to that study I posted a link to the DSB should resolve any existing phosphate issue (or so I believe at this juncture). For the dissolved organics the plan is to purchase an AquaC Remora. The Nitrate test came back at 0 so I guess that's out of the equation. The only other thing I can think of is Rob mentioned and I also read somewhere that activated carbon contributes problems. I do have activated carbon in the Emperor filter. After reading the stuff about carbon being bad (after purchasing 2 boxes of filters too) I think I'll keep the filter on but pull the carbon slide part and dump bioballs in there or something and use it as a little refugium. There are always amphipods in there so why not make it a little more homey.

[Danamck]

Nemesis -

I agree, disloved organics certainly contribute, and they usually lead to high phosphates, among other things.

About the carbon - this is the first that I've heard about that. I have, and continue to use carbon and/or Chemi-pure in all my tanks. The problem with carbon is that once it becomes fully saturated, it looses its ability to absorb and actually starts leeching back into the tank water. This is why some people only use carbon a few days a month. I can imagine that if you didn't replace it often enough, it could cause problems. I replace mine every 2 weeks and have had no problems. My 240 has quite a few corals that wage chemical warefare on each other, and I believe that it is the carbon preventing something serious happening (along with skimming).

[CarmieJo]

I run carbon 24/7. I was using a big bag and changing it every 3 weeks. However after the talks I heard at MACNA and what I have been reading recently I have begun using a far smaller amount and changing it weekly.

[3mm3]

When I set up my new tank I had a good outbreak of the cyno. What worked for me was adding a phosban reactor. I also increased flow in the tank. That was it.
Just over a week later no more cyno. Oh I also had my bryopsis die off(there was only a little bit).
Hope this helps.