Help with Cyano bacteria

[Danamck]

Hello,

I currently have 2 tanks: a 240 fish only with live rock and a 75 fish only with live rock that I am adding corals for my first mini-reef. I have been a fish keeper for 30+ years, and have been keeping salt for 20+ years. Up until 6 months ago, you could have called me "old school", as all my tanks used wet/dry filtration, cheap protein skimmers, uv, coral skeletons and fake corals. My 240 happened because I had a French Angel in my 120 who was purchased 5 years ago as a small juvenile, but was getting too big for the tank. 6 months after setting up my dream tank, I decided to switch to natural filtration, but that's a whole other story! My 75 has been set up for 2 years, but was switched over to natural filtration 3 months ago. A friend gave me some star polyps. Big mistake! Then I picked up a Colt Coral (sorry for the lack of scientific names, I'm just learning corals). Then a feather duster. Then a rock covered with Mushroom Anemones. My wife finally figured out what was happening and gave me her blessing! My first mini-reef!

So there you have it. Everything is going quite well, with one exception. Cyano!

My 240 has red cyano in various places on the sand bed. These are small 1/4" - 1" patches, and there are probably a dozen or so. I try and get to them before they grow into anything more than a very thin layer on the sand. Twice I have found it growing on my live rock, but it was easily removed during a water change.

My 75 has a larger problem with cyano, but this is the blue-green variety. The funny thing is, this tank has a much lighter fish load (5 small fish), better water circulation (15 - 16 tanks per hour), and less powerful lighting (2 65 watt 50/50 power compacts).

So here are some specifics. Both tanks use RO/DI, which I check every so often to make sure there are no phosphates (our city water has a lot of phosphate). I use Oceanic salt, which I have read is not the best. Water parameters of both tanks are identical:

Temp - 77 - 78
PH - 8.2 - 8.4
Salinity - 8.024
Ammonia - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - usually 0, never higher than 5 ppm
Phosphates - 0.25 (I know this could be my problem)

The 240:
220 lbs Tonga live rock
2" sand bed
Converted wet/dry w/ 100 micron filter sleeve (no bio-balls!)
Redmond Reef Refugium (approx 40 gallons) with LOTS of pods and macro algae
Euro Reef CS-180 Skimmer
Euro Reef CS-6.1 Skimmer
36 watt UV (old-school!)
(4) 96 watt power compacts (2 - Super daylight on for 5 hours a day, 2 - Actinic on for 9 hours a day)
2 over flows
Water through sump and refugium is approx 1200 gph (more goes through the sump) returned at each end of tank
Closed loop system with approx 1200 gph of water movement returned to 4 locations
Fairly high fish load: adult French Angel, sub-adult Emperor Angel, juv Queen Angel, Potter's Angel, (2) Golden Butterfly, Double Saddleback Butterfly, Powder Blue Tang, Royal Gramma, Flame Hawk, False Percula, (2) Yellow tail Damsels, (2) Brittle Star, Sand Sifting Star, lots of snails and hermits.
Water changes 25% every 3 weeks. (currently every 2 weeks to try and combat the cyano)

The 75:
75 lbs Tonga live rock
2" fine crushed coral bed
30 gallon sump w/ 100 micron filter sleeve
Euro-reef RS-5.2 Skimmer
18 watt UV
(2) 65 watt 50/50 power compacts (left side comes on at 7:30, right side comes on at 12:30, left side goes off at 4:30, right side goes off at 9:30 - kinda like the sun going over the tank.)
corner overflow
Water through sump moves at approx 1100 - 1200 gph, and returns at each end of tank (this tank has great water movement - both returns aimed at each other mid way through tanks and creates very random movement)
Very light fish load: Flame Angel, Bartlett Anthias, (2) False Perculas, Yelow Tail Damsel, lots of snails and hermits, plus the 4 above mentioned corals/inverts.
Water changes are 10% every 2 weeks.

So any advice to help me rid my tanks of cyano? I realize this is a very long post, but i wanted to give you as much info as possible. Thank you.

[kj_yoda]

Cyano is not an easy thing to combat. My first suggestion would have been to use RO/DI water, but you already have that. Then, I'd suggest the use of snails, but you got those as well.

Basically, I am at a loss of words. You may want to get a phosphate sponge in order to get those phosphates lower, the lower, the better.


Do you test your alkalinity, what is the reading?

[gwen_o_lyn]

to TR

Increase the flow and feed less. When you have cyano, it means your system is importing more that it's exporting. Skim as much as you can. Do your water changes weekly instead of every 3 weeks.
Tell me how often you are feeding.

When I see cyano *even the tiniest bit* I skip the meal. That means there is plenty of food in the reef and feeding isn't neccesary- usually one day for the system to catch up nutrient export fixes the problem.

[Jimm]

Here is a post that I mad on my LRC board with regard to cyanobacteria.

As some of you know a while back I had an overfeeding "incident" the result of which was a ton of various algaes taking over my tank. Cyanobacteria being the worst of it. Here's what I did.

1. Remove as much of it as you can manually. I used a toothbrush and siphon hose.
2. Increased flow by adding Seio pumps and SCWD.
3. A good skimmer. In my case an Aqua C Remora.
4. Massive water changes. We're talking 50-60% (Jeff's advice and what really turned the tide in my tank).
5. Red Tipped Hermit crabs.
6. Big Turbo and Trocus snails (Big snails eat a lot more but be careful, they like to knock things over. The trocus are amazing grazers! I got the big Banded Trocus snails from Drs. Foster and Smith LiveAquaria.com website).
7. Chemical Filtration. A combination of activated carbon and phosban. At first I had this in a phosban reactor, but now I have a Magnum 350 canister holding it.
8. At one point it was so bad that I used Chemi-Clean. I hear Red Slime Remover is good as well.
9. Check your lights. Over time their colors shift and this can contribute to cyanobacterial growth.

Remember that phosphates are a little tricky to test for. They get removed from the water column by the cyanobacteria. So even though your water tests clear there will still be some in the tank locked up inside the algae. As the cyano dies off it re-releases it into the water. This is one reason why manual removal, water changes, skimming, and filtration are important.

Something that I don't have that would help is a refugium filled with macroalgae to compete for nutrients with the cyano and other bad algaes.

30 Oct 05 - The red is cyanobacteria, not coraline. This is after I'd reduced the amout of cyano by about 50% with Chemi-Clean. Prior to this the substrate was covered as well. I didn't take any pictures of it at the worst part of it because it was so ugly.


After 15 Jan 06

I Hope this Helps,
Jim

[gwen_o_lyn]

great post Jim

[Rob]

first off, welcome to the site, and the show

and here is my 2 cents...
cyano usually comes from phosphates, which you have identified, and from excess nutrients in combination with insufficient flow

basically, if you are feeding too much, this can be a major contributor..
im not sure what you are currently feeding, but i would look at cutting back to at least every other day, if not every 3 days...

you want to make sure your water flow is at least 15x

is the return pump all that is generating water flow in the 75?
if so what type of pump, and whats the head (distance from the pump to the outlet)?
where is the cyano in the 75, all over, or in particular places?

the 240 also looks to be lacking quite a bit on the flow less than 2400 gph from what i see (about 10x if your numbers account for head loss) which may be a contributing factor

now with that said, there is another item i see, and thats your sand bed, its too shallow to functions as an efficient biological filter.. which is fine if your intent was to run a shallow sand bed, but since it looks like you are using fine substrate, im not sure if that was your intention... again, as long as you maintain the sand bed, and keep it clean, this will likely not be an issue for you. i do believe in DSB, but there are many good ways you can do it that doesn't involve a DSB.

i dont mean to pick, just trying to help ya figure this one out.. i know how frustrating cyano can be..

[gwen_o_lyn]

Now that Rob posted, I do see that you have crushed coral?? *i think*- it traps detritus making it hard to keep your tank clean. I recommend sugar sized sand and do either a SSB or DSB. Do siphon your rocks and sandbed at least weekly to keep the crushed coral clean. Not exactly sure what you mean by "fine crushed coral"

[Danamck]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies. Where to begin?

KJ Yoda - I do not test for alkalinity. However, upon hearing Rob say that you should not add what you do not test on one of his podcasts, I ordered a more complete set of test kits (the brand that Rob suggested, no less!) It should arrive any day, and i will do more complete testing. I track all my test results on a spread sheet, and test monthly unless a problem creeps up!

Gwen_o_lyn - I believe that the flow in the 75 is good. I do agree that the 240 could use more. However - I hate seeing powerheads in a tank (sorry to all who do use powerheads, it's just me). This is the reason I added a closed loop circulation to my tank recently. There's nothing like drilling a nice big hole in the back of your fully set-up tank to get the old heart racing! (I drained the tank below the hole of course) Then I learned all about cavitation. My plan of one 1 1/2" hole for the input of my pump and (4) 3/4" retunrs for the outputs was seriously flawed. I think my final solution will be to drill another hole or two and use separate smaller pumps.

As for feeding, I believe that I do not overfeed. For example, I feed twice a day (currently I am feeding the 240 in the evening only as I have scaled back the duration my lights are on to help with the cyano problem.) A normal feeding would be 1 1/2 cubes of, say, Angel Formula in the 240, 1/4 cube for my 75, and 1/4 cube for my quarantine tanks (when needed). My French Angel is nearly full grown and would eat 2 or 3 cubes himself if I let him! I try and make sure that he gets 1 full cube, while the other fish share the rest. My logic is the other fish are being fed by the live rock and huge pod population of my refugium. My French ignors any small piece of food. BTW - all my fish eat from my hand (except my Flame Hawk and royal Gramma) so i can make sure they each get fed. In a typical feeding, all traces of food are gone in a minute or two. However, while none of my fish looks like they are starving, I will scale back feeding and see if this helps.

I wil try weekly water changes. During my water changes, I always vacuum my sand bed and live rock (big fish = big poop!).

Jimm - I do use Chemi-Pure in both tanks, 1 unit in the 75 and 3 in the 240. I change them monthly.

I also run a Phosban reactor in my 240 with RowaPhos. This really helped when I added it a few months ago.

I did use Chemi-Clean on both tanks back when they had coral skeletons. I found it worked great, but the problem would return 30 days later. In the "old days" I used to keep a contant level of copper in my tanks that always kept the algae under control. (Don't worry - copper was never used in any of the tanks I currently have!)

I replace my bulbs every 9 months (I date them on the base of each bulb) All of the bulbs are brand new (less than a month).

I have about 75 snails, Margaritas and Astreas in the 240 and about 25 in the 75. They seem to do an decent job in the 240 keeping up with the Diatoms, except on the surface of the sand bed, that they seem to ignore. I leave the back of the tank untouched, so there's always something for them to eat there. On the other hand, the 25 or so snails in the 75 keep that tank nearly devoid of diatoms, on the tank walls, live rock and sunstrate. I has thought about getting some larger snails for the 240, so I will give that a go.

My two skimmers in the 240 are the biggest I can use given the space limitations of my sump and refugium. I recently added the 180 to the 240 and added the RS model to the 75. All three skimmers produce copious quantities of nasty dark black sludge. I usually empty them twice a week.

Thanks for the tip on cyano lowering phosphate levels. I shall keep this in mind when testing. And yes - I try and manually remove as much as i can. BTW - neither tank has been taken over with the stuff. I just can't stand seeing it, as it is a reminder that something is amiss in my tanks.

Rob - being an old school fish keeper, and having the original intent of fish only with live rock tanks, I do not have nor plan (at this time) to switch to a DSB. The sand bed I have is vacuumed with every water change (hard to teach an old dog a new trick!) and is really more for looks. I don't like the look of a substrate free tank, but I also don't like the look of a DSB. Of course, i used to think live rock tanks were ugly, and now I find live rock fascinating. I have so many cool things growning on mine (including some amazing bright red sponges that are growing rapidly!) However, my ultimate goal is to have the healthiest environment for my fish while making the tank easy to maintain, and I believe that a DSB may be the way to go in the future.

With a tank full of big AND little fish (my French is about 11", my False Percula about 1", I worry that the French may become cranky if not fed for 3 days! However, I will scale my feeding back and monitor the fish.

In the 75, the cyano really only appears on the substrate near the front of the tank. This also happens to be an area of high water flow (my Colt Coral blows over if placed here, by Mushroom Anemones hate it there). To answer Gwen's question, the 240 uses live sand. The 75 used crushed coral, but it's the smallest diameter crushed coral sold. The particles are just a little bigger than the 240. I like it because it doesn't "blow around" as easy as the sand. I seriously thought about switching to sand when I added the live rock, and I still may. I keep the substrate clean by vacuuming every 2 weeks with my water changes.

I agree that the flow on the 240 could be upped. I think what I amy do is add some powerheads (uggggggggggghhhhhhh!) and see if this helps. I do have lots of them lying around.

The pumps in the 75 are (2) Eheim 1260's rated at 635 gph. I don't know what the actual flow rate is given the 3' distance to the output. I will do some research and try to find out. Keep in mind that this tank will never be a full blown mini-reef, more a fish and easy coral tank.

OK - a hearty thank you for all your advice. I will try the suggestions and report back. Any additional help would be appreciated. BTW - i hope to have before (fake coral, coral skeletons) and after (live rock) pictures of each tank on the site very soon. thanks again for all your help.

[Rob]

ok.. i think you got most of our points... awesome..

i have a few comments more...
regarding the DSB, as i stated, i am a big fan of them, but that said, they both have there there ups and downs. so if you want to do the SSB and since you are doing the maintenance, you can be successful with that and i wouldn't worry too much about switching unless you make the educated decision to do so..

the other comment is about the water flow with a 3' head on a you can probably expect to loose at least 15% of the rate, more if you are using pipes/tubes larger than 3/4".. so make sure you factor that in to your total flow.
the other thing about that 15x minimum flow rate is that it has less to do with your tank being a reef tank, it has more to do with providing enough flow to keep the water column an excess nutrients moving and allowing enough flow to the LR so they can filter efficiently. when you get into actual coral needs there are many that will require you go higher than 15x, but the base is more about basic filtration needs

thats all from me for now..

[JustDavidP]

Wow...pretty 'in depth' discussion and problem solving exercise! I like, I like...

One thing that I want to add is that EVEN when you get the water parameters, to include flow and such, down.. you may have to RID yourself of the cyano or it will continue to exist using all the resources it can. What I mean is, even if you've reduced the phosphates, increased the flow etc. it MAY just hang in there.

If you don't have many corals that are HUNGRY for light, you may want to black out your tank(s) for 48 hours or so. I do this from time to time in my seahorse tank when I see cyano. The red slime itself uses photosynthesis and the smallest speck could flourish with the slightest hints of phosphate if fueled by the lights.

My tank has Xenia, shrooms, zoas and other polyps in it. Two days without lights certainly bums them out, but will not kill them. However, after 48 hours without light, and after proper siphoning etc. My cyano slicks dissapear.

Dave

[Danamck]

JustDavidP - Thanks for the advice. I agree with you. The majority of the cyano seens to be growing at the very front of the tank, where the substrate meets the front acrylic window of the tank. My guess is that it is gowing under the substrate, where there is poor / no water flow, but in areas where it is well lit (the light travels inside the acrylic and lights up that area. I may try moving the lights back a few inches to see if that helps.

Prior to adding the live rock, my tank actually sat dark for a week. This more than anything eliminated (or so I thought) they cyano. I wasn't sure if I could "go dark" for a bit with corals, but i agree with you - they may not like it, but they will survive.

An update - I have been performing 10% water changes, while siphoning the substrate, every other day and it seems to be having avery posistive effect.

[pham411]

holy cow i am so intimidated by the length of this thread!!! might take me hours to go through.....geez.