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Thread: Bio-media and nitrates (Trickle and wet/dry filters)

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    Insightful Reefer Russel P's Avatar
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    Bio-media and nitrates (Trickle and wet/dry filters)

    I have a typical wet/dry sump/filter unit on my tank. The common advice is to remove the bio-media if there is enough live rock in the tank because the media will add to the nitrate levels.
    This makes no sense to me. I understand the nitrogen cycle, and that nitrosomonas turns ammonia to nitrite, nitrobacter turns nitrite to nitrate. But just having some surface area with these two types of bacteria on them elevating nirtate levels puzzes me. There is no less live rock for denitrification to occur in.
    If I remove the media, my fancy filter will in essense just be a place for the skimmer to stand. What is the point of a sump (not getting into refugiums here) with no boilogical or mechanical filtration?

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    Master Reefer keyozoxmfc's Avatar
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    im not that expert..but i think isnt it that the bio balls are good at changing the ammonia and nitrite to nitrate, but then it just stops there and doesnt go any further?...then that will leave nitrates in the tank which promote algae and algae battles with the corals and kills them off? i believe thats the reason. and the live rock i guess gets rid of nitrates i would guess?..but i dont know how correct i am, just thought i would see if i have the right info
    -Mark

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    Insightful Reefer Russel P's Avatar
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    Everything you say is accurate, but maybe I didn't form my question clearly...

    How does having bio-media raise nitrates? If there is no media, the Nitrosomas and Nitrobacter have to exist somewhere in the system to break it down (presumably live rock, sand, all surface areas). The nitrates are being created by the exact same process elsewhere if not in the bio-media.

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    Site Owner Rob's Avatar
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    Great question.. just wanted to post real quick and let you know i am going to address this here in just a few moment, so sit back get a drink and hopefully we can work through this one..
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    Site Owner Rob's Avatar
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    ok lets start with the basics for everyone else that doesn't already understand what a wet/dry (or trickle) filter is
    also, see podcast episode 46 for more info
    http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/po...sode-46-a.html

    This is a type of filter that contains a large open area that is filled with some type of media, either plastic bio-balls, small ceramic rings, or other ceramic materials in various other designs. while the designs vary the end result is the same. These filters aim to handle most of the biological filtration for your tank. water is they drained or trickled over this media keeping the media wet, but the media is never actually submerged.
    so what does this do?
    well this creates a very oxygen rich (or aerobic) area. and this is where the types of aerobic bacteria. this is the bacteria that processes the first few stages
    ammonia -> nitrite and then nitrite -> nitrate
    this final stage has to be tackled by another bacteria that is found in low/no oxygen areas (anaerobic) this conversion is of nitrate -> to nitrogen

    but then you ask an important question, well if you only have X amount to raw materials how can you end up with excess of the final product.
    in other words, how can you end up with a house with only 10 2x4's

    That is a great question, and here is how...

    so lets setup our example here with some very pretend numbers. the details im going to use here are very inaccurate, but the results are the same, and relevant

    So lets start with our tank running with not enough bio filtration, IE not enough LR, DSB, wet dry, etc...
    we have our tank running, and it starts the day with 100 units of ammonia. our inefficient bio filtration reduces this to
    70 ammonia
    10 nitrite
    15 nitrate
    5 nitrogen
    (again these are pretend units for this example)

    now we need need more filtration so we smack on our wet/dry.
    It being an insanely efficient device clears out the first parts as follows
    0 ammonia
    0 nitrite
    70 nitrate
    30 nitrogen
    hmm.. well we need to handle that nitrate.. lets stock up our live rock and insert a mature DSB (we will pretend we can snap these items into place as mature)

    ok, now with our mature DSB and LR we are at the following
    0 ammonia
    0 nitrite
    40 nitrate
    60 nitrogen

    Hmm.. still way too much nitrate, why is that, we have the DSB and LR..

    well lets take a look at the same system with out the wet/dry
    our parameters are something like this
    10 ammonia
    10 nitrite
    10 nitrate
    70 nitrogen
    (again, these are pretend units)

    now lets introduce another piece and state that a test kit can only detect levels higher than 10 units (anything 10 and under register as 0 on a test kit)

    hmm.. interesting.. what do we have here...
    well what's really happening here is that the wet/dry filter is just overly efficient. It's removing everything, leaving more nitrates than your system can process.. when in fact the system without the wet/dry is able to establish a balance it levels that are
    a.) low enough not to bother anything, and
    b.) low enough not to even show on a test kit.

    so now after all of that, where does all that excess raw material come from? well it was there all along..

    does this mean wet/drys can not be used? absolutely not, however unless you fully understand your system, understand how these types of filters work, and have a plan do deal with it, then stay away from then in a reef tank. In reality many people find it easier to let the system balance it self out as they will do if setup correctly.

    i really hope this help, if not by all means lets keep this thread going.
    Last edited by Rob; 01-17-2007 at 01:00 AM.
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    Expert Reefer Stevej72's Avatar
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    Nicely done Rob.
    And thank you for saving my fingers from all that grueling typing. lol

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    Grand Master Reefer Seahorsedreams's Avatar
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    I change my vote on you not being as verbose as David and Greg.... (he he)

    Great post.
    Renee

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    Site Owner Rob's Avatar
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    lol..
    this is good, as long as i do it where appropriate..
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    Grand Master Reefer CarmieJo's Avatar
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    Very nicely done!
    Carmie


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    Master Reefer iglowce's Avatar
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    thanx for the insight mister Robbie =]

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    Our Brotha Down Unda
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    very nice type job rob,no need to out-source for a writer here bud, your it. just a thought~ you could have gone that extra step & included a link where i explained the path of de-nitrification and how it can kill you. lost down the rabbit hole of TR for good im afraid



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    Site Owner Rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veriann View Post
    very nice type job rob,no need to out-source for a writer here bud, your it. just a thought~ you could have gone that extra step & included a link where i explained the path of de-nitrification and how it can kill you. lost down the rabbit hole of TR for good im afraid
    yes, that would be a good link if you can find it we can add it in here..
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    Our Brotha Down Unda
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    West, you being the youngest among us, we elect you to climb down that rabbit hole & please fetch that posting...lol



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    Curious Reefer cizbicki's Avatar
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    Hi, I just got a new to me (used sw set-up) that has 2 penguin 400 power filters with 2 bio wheels each, after reading this thread it seems like I shouldn't keep the wheels. I haven't cycled the tank yet so should I never introduce them? By the way it is a 55g and Iam planning on 50 lbs base rock and 60 lbs sand to be added at the beginning of the cycle...

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    Site Owner Rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cizbicki View Post
    Hi, I just got a new to me (used sw set-up) that has 2 penguin 400 power filters with 2 bio wheels each, after reading this thread it seems like I shouldn't keep the wheels. I haven't cycled the tank yet so should I never introduce them? By the way it is a 55g and Iam planning on 50 lbs base rock and 60 lbs sand to be added at the beginning of the cycle...
    if the goal is a reef tank, then yes you should refrain from using them IMO
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    Grand Master Reefer wwest's Avatar
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    Sorry V, I must of missed this thread lol.

    Chris, IMO i would never inter duce the wheels, However i don't believe in filtration at all. I have yet to use one on a salt tank. I'm sure someone else can explain it better but i feel filtration does exactly what its suppose to, Filter. I also feel that unless you plan on cleaning the pads and or media once a week. There can be alot of nitrates released into the water in a short period of time. But like i said someone else can explain it alot better than myself why not to use Bio wheels

    Also if i haven't said it yet, Welcome to Talkingreef


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    Curious Reefer cizbicki's Avatar
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    My initial goal is to not kill anything! my wallet included I am planning on a fowlr and hope to move up to reef eventually depending on success. Since the rock and sand are not "live" will they still be able to handle the majority of the filtration after the cycling?

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    Curious Reefer cizbicki's Avatar
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    Oops I forgot my manners, thanks for the welcome

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    Our Brotha Down Unda
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    fish only & your quite right in using these wet/dry means of filtration, they make like work of the early stages of the nitrogen cycle & slow towards the end, reef as your now aware can not stand high levels of nitrate, which require a slower more consistant process of conversion with the nitogen cycle, its like doing you washing, you put it though the process, & at the end you have a pile of clothes to then iron, thats the nitrates. so for reef any media you have remains submerged to harvest the bactera that doesn't pool the nitrates in one quick hit.



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    Grand Master Reefer fat walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veriann View Post
    West, you being the youngest among us, we elect you to climb down that rabbit hole & please fetch that posting...lol
    Nope, I'm the youngest. I will turn 21 this coming August.
    USA

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    Master Reefer keyozoxmfc's Avatar
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    sorry guys...turning 15 in march
    -Mark

    Tank Journal

    All Cows Smoke Grass.
    That is why we have HIGH GRADE milk.

    I've Got More Grams Than Teddy
    and don't worry, be hyphy

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    Insightful Reefer Russel P's Avatar
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    Has anyone ever done a field test, running (as close as possible) identical systems, one with bio media and one without?
    I'm a skeptic by nature. I never liked the idea of keeping salinity lower in FO tanks, etc. I just wonder if the nitrogen build-up in a system would be drastically different.

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    Grand Master Reefer Seahorsedreams's Avatar
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    I removed them from an old tank of mine. Nitrates went from sky high to ultra low in no time without any other changes.
    Renee

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    Insightful Reefer Russel P's Avatar
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    Not even a water change? The plastic balls themselves aren't taking nitrates out with their removal.
    Not being picky here, just that "sky high, ultra low, and no time" aren't exactly quantifyable measurements.
    Also, I'm assuming you had live rock in the system? Just in case any n00bs are reading, pulling bio media would be terrible advice for anyone with a FO tank with no other filtration.

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    Grand Master Reefer Seahorsedreams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russy Pelican View Post
    Not being picky here, just that "sky high, ultra low, and no time" aren't exactly quantifyable measurements.
    No, I wasn't trying to write a thesis here and don't have any quantifiable date.... just a hobbyist having a discussion.

    It was years ago and I don't remember values. Of course I did a water change... many I'm sure, until the readings went down. But at the time I was doing water changes every other day to try and bring the nitrates down.... so that wasn't a change in my husbandry practices.... the only thing I changed was removing the bioballs.
    Renee

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