Natural Seawater - Podcast Episode 30

[Rob]

Look at this, we are already at show 30, man has it been a fun ride..
In this show i am joined by our very own Dave Perry (JustDavidP as he's know in our forums). Dave joined me in the show to talk about the collection and use of natural Seawater (NSW) in our reef tanks.

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the top mostly says it all, here are some related links

Show Links

• Boston Reefers
• Chat Thread
• Science Friday article

[Kevin McG]

Nice!! and a Boston guy

[JustDavidP]

Let me tell you...this was FUN! Rob makes it super easy to create the podcast and it is just as comfortable as a casual phone conversation.

The bottom line is this folks.. Rob really wants this podcast and the website to be "OUR baby", a collaberative effort. What I mean is that the health and well being of the project depends on the community as a whole.

Although he has some great shows lined up for the near future, you should all be thinking of what it is that you want out of the site. What kind of information do you want to hear about? Who would you like to hear from? Also, if you have anything that you would like to discuss, bring it to his attention and start a new project with him.

Rob is very dilligent in returning email. If you have any suggestions that you'd like to bring to his attention, please do so.

Dave

[Chrismo]

Great Show. I wish I was closer to the ocean. Do you think that Cold sea water from here in Canada would be usefull?
Would the plancton die off too fast, or anything like that? It seems to me that one of the bigger benefits is all that live and natural food.

Also, you meantion that you nake sure not to add all the silt that settles to the bottom of your bucket. Wouldnt this silt be a good food source too?

Chris

[JustDavidP]

Welcome Chrismo!!!! And thanks for the nice comments about the show.

Any clean, natural sea water could be used as long as it is tested and adjusted appropriately. If you find a good collection area and can try it, give it a whirl! Again, you'd want to match the temperature, Salinity, PH, Alk, & Calcium at a minimum. If you have a large uptake of magnesium (sometimes happens with systems loaded with clams, stonies, and even the use of many Mangrove's in your system or sump) Strontium, or other elements that you closely monitor, you'll want to check those levels as well.

Otherwise, although the natural planktons in NSW are an "added bonus", they are not necessary and could be substituted with DT's, Phytofeast or another live plankton based mix after the fact. Also keep in mind that cold does not necessarily mean that the water is void of planktons.

The 'silt' on the bottom is typically comprised of dead alga, sands, and other particulate matter that if "live" could be of some benefit to your filter feeders but when dead and unused, break down and cause ammonia to increase and therefore related spikes in nitrite, nitrates etc. Personally, I don't use any bottled planktons etc. that are dead. For a couple pennies more per ounce (maybe more with the conversion rate in Canada ) you can get good, fresh DT's, Phytofeast etc.

If you have a tank that is CONSTANTLY in need of glass cleaning, due to a build up of green film algae on the glass, you may not need to add any phyto products for your filter feeders. Mine react in a very positive way when I merely scrape the glass. I haven't added a phyto product into my display tanks in years. I do use it (and a lot of it) in my seahorse fry growout tanks and refugiums.

Again, welcome...and thanks for the nice words.

Dave

[Reefbaby]

Hello Dave and Rob,

Great show! And thanks for your contribution Dave. The interactive shows are always the best....not to say that Rob's solo shows aren't equally entertaining!

Anyway...we kind of share the same ocean water...although mine's been carried over by the Gulf current! I was wondering if there's any research out there indicating whether any of the mineral content is different in tropical waters vs. cold water (i.e. Atlantic). I have thought about just walking down the road to our pier and collecting my own water, but I've always been so paranoid about bring any parasites into my tank. Have you always just been lucky?

Would it make sense to skim the water before using it for a water exchange? Or do you think that would pull out too much of the beneficial plankton?

Thanks for all the great tips and help!

Christi

P.S. Rob, thanks for using my question today about UV sterilizers! That was fun to hear my name in there! :-)

[byseven]

Again Great Show Rob
Thank for the extra info David !

[JustDavidP]

Thanks again for the nice words...

Christi, as I mentioned in the podcast, I've not seen any articles that compare and contrast NSW -vs- water made with commercial mixes. I have seen some articles that simply break down the make up of NSW in various waters. I'll poke around (tonight) in my notebooks and within some of my bookmarks and see if I can find them. I'll post them here if I do. In the mean time, a quick search on Google or another search engine for "ocean water" and "Chemistry" could help you start your reading list.

As far as parasites go, I have never found much in the water collected at my couple/few sites. I do collect in what I'd call "fast waters" though. By fast, I mean that there is typically a good current in the water column. It just so happens that the same conditions are ideal for the various fish that I'm fishing for I think that you have a better chance of finding parasites in slower, richer waters where they have a better opportunity for feeding and finding suitable hosts etc.

Again, I test my water for the basics parameters. From time to time, I visually check the water with my son's hobbyist microscope. Not that I'm worried, but I'm just kind of a geek like that. (I also look at my koi pond water under a microscope..that's real cool to see what is in pondwater!) Sure, I've seen various planktons n' such, but never anything that looked like a worm larva, isopod etc. I never had as much has ich in my reefs over the few years I kept them.

The only "issue" that resulted in losses in my tank was the improper quarantine of 'mail ordered' clams that resulted in a bout of what is called "pinched mantle disease" in my tank. I lost all of the purchased clams and two additional clams that I had in my system for 2 years. I've never had any problems that I would attribute to NSW.

If you wanted to, you could use ANY filtration on your water. Some also use ultraviolet systems. In a fish only system, why not? There is no call for planktons etc. as you'd see in a reef tank with filter feeders. I just so happened to want to provide that natural plankton to my tank. My feather dusters would all "pop" when I did. I had corals that extended polyps like never before. I also had one rock with barnicles on them. The barnicles would pump and filter like crazy. In any case, if you don't particularly want the small life in the water, you could filter it.

You could also use carbon in your NSW if you didn't have that 100% confidence that there was NOT toxins or pollutants in the water. Patroleum based pollutants will typically be found 'floating'. They tend to be found in the top 2' of the water. By collecting at depths below that 2', you statistically reduce the chances of bringing them home with you.

In my opinion, if you have no chemical pollutant fears, and you can let the water sit for a week or so in a dark closed container, you can use the water and simply leave the 'silt' on the bottom of the container. That 'silt' is the dead, dying, or simply 'settled' life in the water. If it scares you...pitch it

If you use common sense, and not collect water in polluted areas, or during times of "red tide" etc. and then you test for parameters, you can simply make any small adjustments and you are good to go. If you don't have the opportunity to find water that is 'trusted', you should stay with RO/DI and a good salt mix. There is no reason not to use mixed water. I just found that there is no reason (for me) NOT to use NSW.

Have a great weekend!

Dave

[Reefbaby]

Hello Dave! Thanks for the in depth response! I'm thinking about possibly trying it out. The waters here along the west coast of Sweden are quite clean...the only real problem for me are the gazillions of jelly fish! Ouch!

Have you ever tried collected live rock from your waters? I know there might not be tons of corals and polyps attached like the live rock that's availabe from Indonesia, Fiji, etc., but maybe it would be possible to snatch some live rock directly?? What's your guys' take on this?

Great weekend to you too!
Christi

[cabbagehead]

David,
I live on the west coast of florida. We have had many outbreaks of red tide and I'm not sure it would be a good idea to get water from this location. I was wondering if go out about 20 miles away from where the red tide WAS if it might be safer? I do have a way to get a couple of bucket fulls a week if this is ok.

[ghostbear29]

I tagged a post in the podcast reply area stating I loved the cast but was hoping for more indepth analysis. In my marine bio class, we assayed over 13 different sites of marine water and found that the bio load of each specimen is outstanding. I feel that in a properly mature tank, this may not be a problem but in a virgin startup....I sense a cycle coming on. either way, Phyto and cyano were present in all senarios. Diatoms and other flagelletes were also abundant. In temperate waters we see this in seasonal changes along with current trends. so do be careful and check with your local water experts ie...lifeguards, NOAA and fisheries can be quite helpful. For the rest of us, why wasnt "catalina water" not mentioned? just a thought. Also, why havent more companies taken up the saltwater packaging trend? hmm. any new technology that can make this more effortless? well, theres my 2c. take care bros.
jeff

[Reefbaby]

Hello Jeff,

I hadn't heard of "catalina water" before.....interesting. But, that could also be because it looks like they primarily distribute to the West Coast. Do you use this water? I wonder if a process like this is significantly more expensive than salt mixes.

I checked out their website, though, and there was a link to an interesting article by Ron Shimek describing the differences between different salt mixes and NSW (although this was Catalina Water).

From my understanding, Catalina Water Company uses a combination of UV sterilizers, carbon and ozone to destroy the bacteria. Maybe this would be a technique that we could also use when harvesting NSW? Maybe this would hopefully eliminate the potential of cyano, diatoms, flagellates, and possibly also any environmental toxins....

What do you guys think??

Christi

[JustDavidP]

Cabbagehead...

I'd follow local guidance for finding the EXACT area of the bloom. I'd keep far away from it myself. The red tide is a sort of diatom bloom that is NOT good for anyone or anything but for itself. We have had times of red tide on Cape Cod and I will not collect water (or fish for consumption) until I have been told that it has cleared. This is one issue that I don't play around with. Nasty stuff!

Dave

[JustDavidP]

Jeff and Christi,

Rob and I discussed the subject of "packaged water", but in staying with the theme of the Talking Reef Podcasts, we stay away from discussions that we know little about. I've never used these products and therefore could not discuss, in good faith, the use of the practice.

This is NOT to say that it can't or shouldn't be discussed. If you have practical experience or ANY insight, please post it here. If there is a LOT of information to be had, you could always work with Rob to do a NSW Part 2 Again, this community and the podcasts can and will be what YOU, the membership make of it. I'd love to hear another show on the topic and could always learn from ANY of you too. I'm always the newbie..and will never claim to be an expert in anything.

I've seen the boxes o' salt water before, but the price is outrageous. I can get my own NSW and if I deemed it necessaray, I could filter it just as they do. Now, if you have no access to NSW and boxed water is an option, the ONLY thing I'd ask is to check as to whether or not using an RO/DI system and a trusted synthetic salt is a more financially sound option.

Great question(s) and I really do hope others can chime in if they've had any experience in this.

Off to go harvest my newly hatch seahorse fry...

Dave

[Rob]

i have done research in to the use of the boxed products. but have never used them..

the main contstraing here is the weight.. water is HEAVY.. and packaging and shipping costs are outragous. check out this thread for a cost breakdown on packages water versus home mix.

basically, i guess for someone who set and determined to use natural seawater, but cant collect it, its an option, but very expensive.

[Rob]

on a side not, i do want to say how EXCITED it makes me to see this kind of interaction a show... this is awesome...

please everyone pring on the questions,
and Dave, thank you for taking all the time to do the show, and to answer all these follow up questions while i have been out of town.

[ghostbear29]

oh I totally agree. this is just symatics mind you. I was just wondering. If you UV all the living stuff, why have it anyway. I just have used it due to no RO in the store ready for my mothers 29 gal. school tank. I made for a good quick haste water change with no salt mixup. But I would really wonder, for 10.00 a box of 5 gal. I would rather use Meer saltz in MY reef. ya know!

[Reefbaby]

hey ghostbear29....

If you UV all the living stuff, why have it anyway.

I guess my question was more about the cost factor....if you could harvest NSW and could UV/ozone/carbon filter it, then it could be cheaper than buying salt mixes. (Of course, you'd also have to have the UV sterilizer, ozone, etc, which is also a cost factor).

I certainly wouldn't go with the boxed water solution either...wayyyyy too expensive.

And yes, Rob, the friendly interaction is just what I was looking for!

Christi

[pham411]

wow i feel almost spoiled, i get NSW free from the waikiki aquarium. i think they pump the NSW from underground instead of far offshore. i happened to get the parameters from the nice folks at the WA. if some of ya'll are interested in the parameters of NSW, here is the email i got from the WA staff,
*****************************
Michael,
I have some information about our well water for you.
Our saltwater well comes out of the ground with low oxygen and pH.
We aerate the water to increase the oxygen concentration.

At the tap where you pick up water the following water parameters which may
range slightly are typically present:
pH 7.67
Alkalinity 2.249 Meq/L
oxygen 5.6 mg/L
Calcium 393 mg/L
Magnesium not examined
Nitrate
+ nitrite 0.07 mg/L
Total
Phosphorus 0.02 mg/L
Siliccate 6.1 mg/L
Strontium not examined

I hope this helps.
Aloha!!!
Jerry Crow
Curator
Waikiki Aquarium
University of Hawaii
***************************************
latez
oh 1 more thing, Rob i would like some different opinions on overskimming. you know, +'s and -'s. well specificly what i really want to know is can overskimming keep your nitrate levels down if your sandbed is relatively new. well i did seed it my new sandbed with about 20lbs of live sand from my previous setup of 3yrs.

latez
mike

[JustDavidP]

Rob et al...

I have enjoyed this volley of information. No need for thanks. This kind of discussion is nothing but positive for the hobby. I'm glad to help.

UV sterilizers are coming down in price. I don't think it would be cost prohibitive to use one on NSW. It would help pay itself off in no time. Much like our RO/DI systems. Again, I chose not to filter my NSW. Though there is no reason NOT to, unles you are certain that you want the plankton etc.

Just as with any facet to this hobby, the best you can do is learn, and apply the various practices in a way that BEST SUITS YOUR needs. With any topic that is 'debatable', you have to take all the information with a 'grain of salt'. Even moreso when it comes to your marine systems that take up a LOT of our time and money.

Mike...I'm jealous. I'd love to get water from a trusted source like the Waikiki Aquarium...and look at that make up.. very little work to be done with that water. Good for you!

Dave

[ghostbear29]

now I hate PHAM! Waikiki rocks and I know their coral husbandry is the best! Your are a spoiled little brat! Of course, I want to be one too! Just that I live in the freakin' desert!

[pham411]

hahha, yah i am a little spoiled. there is a catch though, i gotta drive 15 miles to get the water. thats the only downfall but other than that the water is awsome

[DJGonzo69]

Dave,
Planning on getting some NSW next time I go fishing. I know you mentioned on the Podcast that you go out pretty far. I don't have access to a boat, but I go on a man made breakwater that extends pretty far from the beach. Here is a link of how far the breakwater is http://www.californiacoastline.org/c...gs=0&year=2002 It's the that long pile of rocks on the right side of the pic. What signs should I look for when in the water since I'm not that far out. Or is it a bad idea to get water from this area?

Thx,
John

[pham411]

NSW is really benificial but you wanna stay away from the harbors, docks, river mouths as much as possible. (lots of pollutents). besides the waikiki aquarium here in hawaii there is another pump where NSW is available. it pumps about 300 or 400 yards off shore infront of a harbor. i personally would never ever ever ever use that water. basiclly the farther out the better. the phrase never hurts to try doesnt apply here hahah. your call dude........

mike

[pham411]

oh 1 more thing, iit looks like its going to SUCK carring the water over those rocks. on the bright side at least youll get a pretty good work out.