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Thread: Sandbed Discussion

  1. #1
    Our Brotha Down Unda
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    ive been doing some research into a lagoon style or &that bare bottom stuff i was rambling about when i started here, i came accross this posting by Crazy Trigger some time back, its kinda long, sausage about that, but i wanted to see what peoples current views are on the subject.
    ok here goes, i bet after the paste it will be a mile long!

    *** Putting on my anti-flame gear first ***


    I was actually going to post this on an "active" thread in Dr. Ron's forum that I started earlier this week. I wanted to get my points across but knew that the flame throwers would be out in full force and I'd have no backing at all. At least here in the Reef Discussion there's a better chance of getting a small following once the flamers come out

    OK here's what I was going to post there.....

    I think a deep sandbed can be VERY functional. My question is....for how long can it be functional before it turns bad?
    I did alot of searching on the board over the past few days before posting this so I come somewhat prepared. There are loads of people on the board with bare bottom or shallow beds. That doesn't mean it's right or the only way to go. I'm just stating what I observed.

    I am not saying "Bare bottom is the best." I'm just voicing an opinion of why I think a deep bed could potentially be bad. If you can tell me that I am wrong, and why, I will graciously listen. Basically what it comes down to is that a topic like this is trouble and usually ends up with someone flaming someone and so on and so on. No one wants to shout it from the roof-tops "I HAVE A BARE BOTTOM REEF TANK!!!" -- "YAHOOOOOO!!!!! I RUN A
    BERLIN SYSTEM!!!!" (Modified Berlin System is with sand).
    That's because everyone will reply and sing the praises of having a DSB, at the same time putting down that dude's bare bottom tank that's been successful for 10 years.

    Either way, if your current set up works and it ain't broke, don't fix it. I do however come with warnings of an aged sandbed becoming a toxic waste dump! I have a 2-3 inch bed now. I saw hydrogen sulfide and guess what -- I WANT IT OUT!!!!! AND FAST!!!! There are plenty of worms and critters going through it and yet my sand still looks like a dump! This is NOT something that I feel would benefit MY system in ANY way and it's just my opinion. Maybe you want hyrodgen sulfide in your tank. I don't
    want it in mine nor do I want to fuel it by having 4 inches of sand for it to blossom in.

    According to Dr. Ron, every system has it when you run a DSB. Sorry, I don't want it. Something will eventually expell it into the tank! Thanks, but no thanks....

    Anyway, in reading these posts that I found while searching around, I saw a couple of people say that it is recommended to siphon out all the sand from 1/4 of your tank each year and then slide the rest of the sand over, cover with either new sand or live sand. If that is the case then that has got to tell you something right there! An old sandbed is a bad one, maybe? Are we aiding our tanks in being toilets? Most deep bed advocates say "For it to work, it has to be set up right." How many people do you think have their beds set up right? Half, less than half? or even less than that? What about the people that started with CC and then dumped in 100 lbs of southdown on top of that because they read on the board that a DSB is "the only way to go"? Is that a
    set up you'd consider a "right set up"? I think not! Then you wonder why their next post a couple of weeks later is "My sand is brown!!!! what can i buy to stir/shift it"?

    Have you ever wondered why your tank would look so great for a year or so and then seem to require more work and show signs of decline? I have !!!!! I've seen sudden changes in the health of my tank about once a year. While I can't be sure it's the sandbed, I think my accusations are right on target.
    Eventually the "stuff" that gets down there turns into pollutants and that's when the fun begins. Maybe the ones that stir their sand occassionally don't have this problem but I wonder if
    those of you who never touch your sand do. Anyone ever think that it's possible for 200lbs (maybe more) of sand to begin to compact in your tank? Can't be - I have life in there constantly stirring it around. I don't think so!

    The animals in my tank look extremely healthy right now. Then I look at the sandbed with all it's ugly colored layers and I say "YUCK!" I've seen other people's tanks in the past where they had these "black zones." The tanks were great up until that point. I've seen pristine tanks turn into swamps in the blink of an eye (Ok maybe 2 blinks). With a deep sand bed I think you have a better chance of having a mess on your hands than if you had a one inch bed or less. Granted if you have a bare bottom you have to siphon out detritus or have the right amount of flow in the right places to bring the detritus up and hold it in suspension to be filtered out. It's a fixable thing. I'd rather do weekly cleanings than have that time bomb ticking under all my corals and rock.

    People say "well without a DSB you won't have critters!" Either way, if it's critters you want, you'll still get um....
    Think about it. Look at your tank. Where do most of your critters live? In the first 1/2 - 1" of sand? In the rocks too maybe? LOL!!!!
    Where do you think they come from in the first place? I started MY tank with dead sand and live rock. In a few months the tank was teaming with life!!!!! These animals I view do not live deep deep down in the sand. Do they? Maybe I'm wrong there.
    Who knows.....

    Are those bristle worms that you just paid $100 for gonna burrow deep into your 4" bed and process those nutrients for the animals in the lower food chain? Are they really gonna keep your sandbed clean and pollutant free? Are they gonna prevent your sand from compacting?

    You talk about feeding feeding feeding !!!! If you feed your fish,
    your corals will get fed too. Granted I also use DT's and other planktonic foods but that's for my corals, not my sandbed. You have to feed the animals that populate your sandbed so they could multiply and mulitply and have this tremendous power to process more and more and more? If you don't, the bed will starve and you will have no life in the bed to handle the processing.

    Well if you did not have a deep bed, you would not have to worry about adding extra food to your tank to feed to your "starving bed." You'd also have less to process!!!! QUOTE UNQUOTE....Geez!!!!!! What a concept. The bed is there for its processing power as well as biodiversity? Correct? STOP FEEDING LIKE A LOONEY AND YOU WON'T NEED TO PROCESS SO MUCH !!!!!!!!!!!!! I thought we were raising corals, not sand beds. It seems people spend more time and money on their
    sandbeds than the corals that they are trying to raise. Detritivore kits, live sand activators, not to mention Garf grunge, etc etc etc !!!!!!!! If you bought good live rock, you'll have plenty of critters populating your aquarium giving you that bio-diversity that you want.

    What happened to plenums? Those were certainly the rage when they first came out. Oh yeah, they were real trendy! My LFS told me if you set up a plenum right (someone says it again), you can go 10 years without a water change!
    Boy those went out of style pretty fast. Wonder why? LOL!!!!!!!

    Maybe a sterile tank is not want appeals to you or maybe I am a little out of my league here. Either way, it all seems pretty clear to me.

    Honestly guys/gals, I am not looking for a flame attack here.
    I'd like to hear views from both sides.
    Thanks much.

    CT



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  2. #2
    Site Owner Rob's Avatar
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    wow.. there's a lot there.. lots of things to comment on..
    there are good points, but some missing points as well.
    but in short, hes right, a DSB is a ticking time bomb if not taken care of...
    but that said, so is EVERYTHING...

    the key is EVERYTHING needs maintenance.. there is no such thing as maint free....

    he says
    Maybe the ones that stir their sand occasionally don't have this problem but I wonder if those of you who never touch your sand do.
    that's like said, im sure the people feed there fish have healthy fish... but what about them people that dont feed them...

    well DUH.. if you dont take care of things, sand bed, bare bottom, feeding fish.. you will have issues.

    then there is the things talked about feeding your sand bed... ???
    who feed there sand bed and
    spend more time and money on their
    sandbeds than the corals that they are trying to raise
    who is doing this.. why would you do this.. i guess i am just not aware of a problem where people put THIS much time, effort, and money into providing food to there sand bed.

    ok, thats all for me..
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    Grand Master Reefer gwen_o_lyn's Avatar
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    I broke this off into a new thread since Veriann got a great start on a thread I've been wanting to get going but lack the time.

    I have so much to add, but just not the time!! I gotta do some studying too before I start speaking my mind!!

    I'd like to start this discussion by defining a DSB. What is a DSB to you? When they first came out, a DSB was something that required little maintenance and you did not disturb, nor vacuum. People thought they would just keep going and going and process waste indefinitely.

    However, there seems to be a different school of thought. People like Rob say you should stir the DSB to release the built up detritus and avoid the dreaded nutrient sink.

    I must get to bed... got lots to talk about here!!

    Lets have some fun!!

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    Grand Master Reefer fat walrus's Avatar
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    my 2 cents..actually make that 1 cent's worth is that these type of debates existed before and will always continue. it comes down to the tankkeeper. i've have tanks usings almost every system imaginable and have no clear preference for any "one". i've seen friends fail no matter what, and i know this old man with a 180 reef still with the original UG that can keep specimens better than me. i use one simple rule: if i see a successful tank, i give it all due respect, if i see a lousy tank...i don't care what system is used.
    USA

  5. #5
    Site Owner Rob's Avatar
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    well blubber.. i couldn't say it better myself..

    he fact is there is more than 1 way to skin a cat.
    if you are successful with 1 method, then cool..

    i think the debate continues do to lack of understanding, and the thought that you can "always get better" and while this is true, there are many ways to get better.

    there is so much we dont know about reefkeeping, we are learning new things all the time..
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    Master Reefer pham411's Avatar
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    geez, long post
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    Site Owner Rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwen_o_lyn
    I'd like to start this discussion by defining a DSB. What is a DSB to you? When they first came out, a DSB was something that required little maintenance and you did not disturb, nor vacuum. People thought they would just keep going and going and process waste indefinitely.
    now what your saying is what people think about a DSB, not what it is.

    what people think about, or how they care for a DSB is evolving, and will continue to do so.

    but as for what it is...
    a DSB is a substrate layer that is deep enough to to contain both aerobic, and anaerobic areas that host various life that can act as an efficient biological filter. <short definition>

    my views are mostly outined above.

    is a DSB better? simply.. no.
    the method you use, depends on what you are keeping, how much work you want to put into it, and how you want to care for you tank. and many other things...
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    Grand Master Reefer fat walrus's Avatar
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    maybe a new podcast: the idiot's guide to lazy-ass reefkeeping.
    USA

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    Site Owner Rob's Avatar
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    lol.. lazy reefing...
    thats easy.. dump LOADS of money into automation...

    otherwise, its going to be work....lol
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  10. #10
    Our Brotha Down Unda
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    lazy reefing, yeah automation is prob high in this topic, but all the flashing lights & nice turny thingys dont realy mean sqwat if u dont have the knowledge to understand why its doing the things its doing! or better still, how your tank response plays out!

    as a DSB, i'll tell u this, if i was a tiny shrimp that fell off my coral perch from heigh up, i know id prefer to hit a fatt bed instead of a few grains of sugar!



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  11. #11
    Grand Master Reefer gwen_o_lyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veriann

    as a DSB, i'll tell u this, if i was a tiny shrimp that fell off my coral perch from heigh up, i know id prefer to hit a fatt bed instead of a few grains of sugar!
    oh but the sugar sounds so much softer!!

  12. #12
    Curious Reefer
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    Rob, do you stir your bed? Mine has been in a year and I pretty much have just let it be (Except when the powerhead fell and stired 1/4 of it). Let me know

    On a related/unrelated note. I did some trading this weekend with a guy that was BB. I had allways wanted to see one. Well he had some type of plastic foam in the bottom of his tank (white) and If you didn't look real close you would have thought he had very clean sugar fine sand. In fact I knew he had BB and I still looked at the thing for 5 minutes before I could tell for sure. I may give one a try at some point. I have a smaller tank, so I'm fairly used to the weekly water change and fiddle with the tank syndrome.

    But please tell me what you do to maintain your DSB - Mine is 6 - 8" deep, both in the tank and in the sump. Noticed tonight I need some crabs in the sump.

  13. #13
    Site Owner Rob's Avatar
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    yep, i do...
    after about 6-8 months, i started moving things around.. just small areas at a time..
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    Our Brotha Down Unda
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    do people believe vibration sources have any impact on how the bed moves on its own? i know the top layers get moved via fish & current, prob dirrect intervention also, but even though sand compacts, as with any vibration (prob using the earth as a model here) u get movement, all be it small!



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    Grand Master Reefer fat walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veriann
    do people believe vibration sources have any impact on how the bed moves on its own? i know the top layers get moved via fish & current, prob dirrect intervention also, but even though sand compacts, as with any vibration (prob using the earth as a model here) u get movement, all be it small!
    isn't sand a good insulator against vibration? the deeper down, the less movement because or weight and pressure?
    USA

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    Grand Master Reefer gwen_o_lyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by houtxhere2001
    Well he had some type of plastic foam in the bottom of his tank (white) and If you didn't look real close you would have thought he had very clean sugar fine sand. In fact I knew he had BB and I still looked at the thing for 5 minutes before I could tell for sure. I may give one a try at some point.
    These fake sand beds will usually be covered in coralline. Does he have a way to take it out and clean off the coralline or is it a new tank?

  17. #17
    Grand Master Reefer fat walrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwen_o_lyn
    These fake sand beds will usually be covered in coralline. Does he have a way to take it out and clean off the coralline or is it a new tank?
    never seen one, and can't imagine why anyone would use one. with a fake botttom, it would seem like it would negate the possible advantage of going bare-bottom.
    USA

  18. #18
    Our Brotha Down Unda
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    i believe when done properly they look great. beats bare glass thats for sure, both in looks & safety if somthing should fall. i would prefer a DSB not in the main display but rather in a dedicated area. im almost membered up,just squeezing the last of the green dye out of the notes as we speak, so i'll post a pic of one done proper soon! im a sucker for simple uncluttered reef designes, & this is my personal opinion only folks but why do we feel the need to cram as much as humanly possible in a rockwall! what draws my attention more is a focal piece with minimal background peices! the rest of the stuff can be tucked away in the systems utility bays!



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  19. #19
    Grand Master Reefer fat walrus's Avatar
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    so are you saying that you have one of these phoney bare-bottoms?
    USA

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    Our Brotha Down Unda
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwen_o_lyn
    These fake sand beds will usually be covered in coralline. Does he have a way to take it out and clean off the coralline or is it a new tank?
    why would u want to, its covered with reef save plumbers glue with sand stuck on top, the coralline enhances the look & covers any missed spots on the board.
    no, i have smooth coral fragments as of now, but the next tank should look something like this, only maybe round, i dont know! lol, we are getting of DSD topic, but what the hey
    http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.ph...c433badf1ec779



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    Grand Master Reefer fat walrus's Avatar
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    i'll stick to real sand. start with a phoney bottom and then you'll have phoney backgrounds. that'll probably lead to phoney corals, and will end up with a tank made by walt disney.
    USA

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    Our Brotha Down Unda
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    yeah, good call, there thruth in that!



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    Insightful Reefer Sheol's Avatar
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    I'm about to try out a DSB in a new setup, so I was reading through this thread. Rob, when you stir your sand, do you stir all the way to the bottom?

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    Our Brotha Down Unda
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    sweet, im impressed, such an old thread & your activly searching the rabbit hole.



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    Insightful Reefer Sheol's Avatar
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    I know my way around the internetz - fish, however, are still an enigma to me.

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