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Thread: Finally Got the Achilles

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    Expert Reefer CompulsiveAqua's Avatar
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    Finally Got the Achilles

    I have been searching for a good spec of an Achilles tang for 2 years and have finally found one. He is about 5" and has no HLLE, or ich, or no sunken belly. I put him on hold for a day and during that time I watched him eat live brine and nori, amazing... I have had him home for 3 days now and he is eating Omega Marine flakes and Kelp flakes. The tank he is currently in is a 40g breeder with little to no stress (royal dotty, 2 maroon clowns, blenny, and fairy wrasse)....I know, I know...not big enough....I have to rearrange the 125 in the basement before I put him in. 3 days and he is starting to show signs of ich....what should I do?...usually I wait it out....ya I know you should have quarantined him....does anyone else out there have an Achilles?
    LARRY!!!!

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    Grand Master Reefer Amphibious's Avatar
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    Classic mistake, James. Sorry man but I can’t ignore your post. There are 57 non-members lurking this site tonight seeking information. Many are newbies. I can’t in good conscience let this slide without comment. You did a couple things right, you waited 24 hours and you made sure it was eating a variety of foods. Then you threw caution to the wind and made the classic mistake. Not being prepared for a new hyper active Ich prone fish at home. The Achilles Tang is as Ich prone as the Powder Blue Tang. Two of the worst and that means extra caution in purchasing and extra preparation BEFORE you bring it home.

    The tank he is currently in is a 40g breeder with little to no stress
    This, of course is not an accurate statement. A 5” Tang in a 40 breeder is stressed! Your concern, "3 days and he is starting to show signs of ich" proves he’s stressed and was totally predictable. The fact that you even consider a Tang (or any other fish) without a quarantine system is another classic mistake. Of all fish, Tangs need to be quarantined for a minimum of 30 days. A 40 breeder would make a great QT tank. You might question me on if a 40 is a good QT tank why do Tangs need a 6’ long tank to thrive in? Good question. A QT tank is temporary, an isolation tank where the fish can be observed, pampered, fed high quality food items fortified with liquid fish vitamins and brought into optimum health BEFORE he’s introduced to the DT. I know you know that but, I posted it for some of the lurkers that might read this thread.

    So what to do now? You don’t have a lot of choices. Setting up a QT now is pointless because you are not prepared to deal with a cycle and that’s the last stress your Tang needs. Waiting it out seems the most likely option.

    I hope you indelibly scribble this event into your memory bank and never make this mistake again.

    If I come across particularly harsh, I’m not sorry! I’ve directed so many people to my “Nine Simple Rules” article, I’m sure you have read it. For those who have not read it and have doubts as to how to buy healthy fish and keep them healthy, please go to this link and read it - "Nine Simple Rules"

    Research and education is the key to success with SW aquariums whether fish only or reef.

    Dick
    Amphibious

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    Grand Master Reefer CarmieJo's Avatar
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    I agree with Dick. If it was me, I'd add some garlic to their food. It won't hurt and may be beneficial.
    Carmie


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    Expert Reefer CompulsiveAqua's Avatar
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    I love your ability to be blunt, dick....lol. I have read so much and have so much more to read, I know. For all those scourers of information on keeping a saltwater tank, Dick is right...that is the status quo way of introducing a fish into a box filled with water in your house. What about innovation though...lol...you know I actually wrote a long reply to your reply, dick....but then said, Why? Iv'e been steered in so many directions it makes me laugh and the unfortunate (and maybe a little bit of luck) answer sometimes is to just leave it alone, with life and your fish tank. I appreciate your comments, Dick. Thanks for answering my question CJ.
    (Wait can't the little ich parasite live for 90 days???)
    Last edited by CompulsiveAqua; 11-05-2010 at 12:12 AM.

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    Grand Master Reefer saltaddict's Avatar
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    As long as a host exist in your system the cycle can be endless of ich.

    At this point the best thing to do for the fish is give it every possible opportunity to heal. It needs to be fed several times per day of small helpings that are soaked in Selcon or Zoe and Garlic. You need to try to boost the immune system to help the fish rid itself of the parasite.

    As far as reading and such - You didn't read enough on this tang. I know that is blunt but Tangs are my passion and had you read and researched you would have found that putting it in that size box would create an unpleasant situation for it.

    With that being said, best of luck to your fishy.

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    Expert Reefer CompulsiveAqua's Avatar
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    Salt addict...it "is" just a temporary home. Would you be more comfortable in a box with nothing or with rocks and sand and stuff you are use to. Is a 40g breeder not a good quarantine tank? I don't believe the hype is what I am getting at....all the treatments that is or QT with PVC. I have read and will find it that ich can (not high probability) live up to 90 days in a fallowing tank. Should I quarantine for 90 days? I am also a TangNut...and have been waiting for this fish for a long time...I knew what I was up against and am willing to sacrifice all the other fish in my tank ...lol. I'm sure the Fish Club wouldn't mind. If I wouldn't have bought him, he would either have died at the LFS (sampled the water he was in 1.014 (typical), NO3: 200+ppm, Cu: who knows, I know for a fact that they put pennies/pieces of copper in their sumps, former employees) or he would have been bought by some knucklehead and dead already)(I know you think I am the knucklehead). This fish is like trying to feed a nudi the right sponge. Thank you for your positive reinforcement though: I am feeding him garlic enriched flake (which I can't believe he is eating) and zoe and garlic enriched live brine. He hasn't eaten the nori off the clip, but if I break it up, he eats. I feel like I'm being combative, sorry if it comes across that way. I have always respected all of the comments on this site. I also think this is a good thread for the newbies. If you are happy with your tanks and have been waiting for a/this fish to come along (which never happens),and have thought time and time again if you are willing to have one sent with no promise that it will be alive after the UPS guys kick the box once or twice, and haven't bought a fish in a year, and your wife wants to know whats up with the empty tank that runs all the time (lol)...limited options. I guess I should have wrote all that to begin with. Thanks again, nice ride!...lol.

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    Grand Master Reefer Amphibious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CompulsiveAqua
    I love your ability to be blunt, dick....
    100 years ago, when I was your age, I didn’t like it when people were brutally honest with me. I hated the fact that they would point to my failings and say, “It’s your fault because you failed to do this or that”. I hated it!!! But, after many failures and many life lessons, I learned to live in “reality” or the “truth” or more poignantly in todays cliché the “No Spin Zone”.

    Sugar coating a problem isn’t going to teach anybody anything except that failure is OK. Failure is inevitable but never OK. Failure is a learning experience. But if a failure is not corrected it leads to more failure. Few people have the fortitude to look in the mirror and say, “Oops, I made a mistake”, and then own up to it and correct their behavior! My life was chock full of mistakes when I was your age and well into my thirties. At age 40, I found myself divorced (my choice) and not a happy camper. I realized I needed a drastic brain overhaul. My way of thinking was not leading me in the right direction. I was in trouble and all I had to do to “see it” was to look at my history. FORTUNATELY, a new friend had the courage to point to me and say something like, “You are suffering from stinking thinking”.

    That person (Happened to be a girl, anybody surprised about that?) literally changed my life for the better. She forced me to face the truth about everything that happens in life, EVERYTHING! There is no sometimes facing the truth. It’s all the time. SO, over time I became the guy not afraid to be blunt. Like I said above, “I’m not sorry”.

    What I would be sorry about is if I said nothing and others soothed your wound with sugar coated replies and you, and the Newbies following this thread, began taking up the practice of irresponsible reefing. How many times have I harped on everyone becoming a ”Responsible Reefer"? Take the “Responsible Reefers” pledge, posted by our friend SkurveyDog somewhere on TR. Blunt, yes. Harsh, yes.

    Reality is, our reefs are being pillaged because of over collecting, using irresponsible methods of collection to satisfy an ever increasing demand for these beautiful reef creatures we so love to keep in our “boxes”. There is not an endless supply. In fact anyone in this hobby that does any research at all will by accident stumble into articles of NEW RESTRICTIONS in the works by organizations hell bent on STOPPING the collection of ALL SW ornamental fish, coral and invertebrates.
    All because of our wanton desire to have more, more, more. Largely because of the failure of Newbie’s and other’s resistance to becoming “Responsible Reefers”. Of course Newbies are unaware of the problem until they get involved and, hopefully join a forum. Can we become perfect? Probably not but, we can learn to control our irresponsible, impulsive urges to buy something when we have not prepared, in advance, for the proper conditions to house it in a responsible way. There it is again, No Spin, smack’m in the face with reality. It’s in my blood and I’m not sorry. LOL!

    Quote Originally Posted by CompulsiveAqua
    I am also a TangNut...and have been waiting for this fish for a long time...I knew what I was up against and am willing to sacrifice all the other fish in my tank ...lol.
    JC James!!! This is just the attitude I’m fighting you on!!! You would sacrifice all the other fish in your tank to have an Achillies Tang??? Think about what you just TAUGHT every Newbie reading this thread.

    Am I wasting my time (two hours at this point) responding to your post? I can’t believe you actually, truly feel that way. To anyone who gives a damn about our hobby and the ocean’s reefs, that attitude is what is wrong in this hobby!!! That is part of the problem we are facing!!!

    For your further education on Ich, here is a graphic I found somewhere on the Internet.



    I’m out of here! I have better things to do with my time and energy, like pound sense into a concrete block!

    Dick
    Amphibious

    Good Luck comes to those who research and prepare.


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    Grand Master Reefer saltaddict's Avatar
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    Ok - I don't think you are a knucklehead nor do I post here to offend.
    My tangs hang in a 30g QT tanks prior to being moved to a display. They do not share the QT with any other creature.

    When are you setting up the new tank?

    The LFS you bought from may have purposefully have kept the salinity at that level as ich parasite do not appreciate lower salinity levels.

    I would set up a QT and begin the process of hypo-salinity treatment as well as "super" foods to try help him recover.

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    Expert Reefer CompulsiveAqua's Avatar
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    Dick....ok...love you too and newbies, it's not ok to do what I did. Sorry you wasted 2 hours on something you love. I did not mean to terminate the other fish and if I could give you a hug grandpa, I would, but a virtual one will have to do.
    Addict: the 125 tank has been setup for 2 years, I am just rearrange the fish stock so the Achilles will be a little bit less stressed. It is a reef tank with mostly LPS and softies.

    Add to make things a little right, here is a list of references to the help educate the newbie's...should cover every base for better reefing.
    References:

    Andrews, Dr. Chris, Adrian Exell, and Dr. Neville Carrington. 1988. The Manual of Fish Health. Blacksburg, VA: Tetra Press. pages 166-168 and 190-195.

    Bartelme, Terry D. 2001. "Treating Saltwater Ich Without Medication" Tropical Fish Hobbyist, January 2001.

    Bassleer, Gerald. 1996. Diseases in Marine Aquarium Fish: Causes, Symptoms, Treatment. Westmeerbeek, Belgium: Bassleer Biofish. pages 51-52.

    Bunkley-Williams, Lucy & Ernest H. Williams, Jr. 1994. "Disease caused by Trichodina spheroidesi and Cryptocaryon irritans (Ciliophora) in wild coral reef fishes" Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 6:360-361, 1994.

    Burgess, P. J. & R. A. Matthews. 1995. "Fish host range of seven isolates of Cryptocaryon irritans (Ciliophora)" Journal of Fish Biology 46:727-729, 1995.

    Calfo, Anthony pers. comm.

    Colorni, Angelo. 1985 "Aspects of the biology of Cryptocaryon irritans, and hyposalinity as a control measure in cultured gilt-head sea bream Sparus aurata" Diseases of Aquatic Organisms, 1:19-22, 1985.

    Colorni, Angelo. 1987. "Biology of Cryptocaryon irritans and strategies for its control" Aquaculture 67:236-237.

    Colorni, Angelo & Peter Burgess. 1997. "Cryptocaryon irritans Brown 1951, the cause of 'white spot disease' in marine fish: an update" Aquarium Sciences and Conservation 1:217-238, 1997.

    Dixon, Dr. Beverly A. pers. comm.

    Fenner, Robert pers. comm.

    Gratzek, Dr. John B., Dr. Richard E. Wolke, Dr. Emmett B. Shotts Jr., Dr. Donald Dawe, and George C. Blasiola. 1992. Aquariology: Fish Diseases & Water Chemistry. Blacksburg, VA: Tetra Press. pages 105-107.

    Joshi, Sanjay. 2003. "Top 5 Marine Fish Parasites" Aquarium Fish Magazine, September 2003.

    Kollman, Rand. 1998. "Low Salinity as Quarantine and Treatment of Marine Fish Parasites" SeaScope, Volume 15, Spring 1998.

    Michael, Scott. 2002. "Fighting Marine Parasites" Aquarium Fish Magazine, October 2002.

    Noga, Edward J. 2000. Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment. Ames, IA: Iowa State University Press. pages 97-99, 282-283, and 286-288.

    Rasheed, Victoria M. 1989 "Disease of Cultured Brown-Spotted Grouper Epinephelus tauvina and Silvery Black Porgy Acanthopagrus curvieri in Kuwait" Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 1:102-107, 1989.

    Untergasser, Dieter. 1989. Handbook of Fish Diseases. Neptune, NJ: TFH Publications. pages 95 and 127.

    Walsh, John pers.comm.

    Yoshinaga, T. & H.W. Dickerson. 1994. "Laboratory Propagation of Cryptocaryon irritans on a Saltwater-Adapted Poecilia Hybrid, the Black Molly" Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 6:197-201, 1994.

    Further Reading:

    Bartelme, Terry D. 1999. �Formaldehyde: Friend or Foe?� SeaScope, Volume 16, Summer 1999.

    Dickerson, Dr. Harry W. 1994. "Treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans in Aquaria" SeaScope, Volume 11, Summer 1994.

    Fenner, Robert. 1998. The Conscientious Marine Aquarist. Shelburne, VT: Microcosm Ltd.

    Fenner, Robert. 2003. "Cleaning Symbiosis Among Marine Fishes" Tropical Fish Hobbyist, February 2003.

    Moe, Martin A. Jr. 1989. The Marine Aquarium Reference: Systems and Invertebrates. Plantation, Florida: Green Turtle Publications.

    Siegel, Terry. 2002. “Cryptocaryon: An Old Enemy” Marine Fish & Reef 2002 Annual.

    http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm

    http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html
    LARRY!!!!

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    Grand Master Reefer saltaddict's Avatar
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    Glad to hear the 125g is already running!! Post pics of the new baby.

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    Expert Reefer CompulsiveAqua's Avatar
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    Picture?????...impossible, just as hard as trying to take pics of the Hippo in the 125g...lol

    Amazing though....I pulled my cleaner wrasse from the 125g (it's been alive for over a year now) and put it in with the Achilles and after about 2min....the Tang was following the Wrasse around and turning on his side motioning him to: PICK THESES ___ DAMN PARASITES OFF ME!!!!
    .....I love moments like that....a hobby that never get old.
    LARRY!!!!

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    Expert Reefer CompulsiveAqua's Avatar
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    911 911 911 911....My daughter got a hold of some Ca additives and poured a ton in my tank.......Levels are a bit over 1000ppm....I love kids, ahhhhhhhhhh!....besides water changes are there any ways to bring the Ca down? and how detrimental is it to the fish??????
    LARRY!!!!

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    Grand Master Reefer saltaddict's Avatar
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    Nope - water change, water change, water change

    CA is extremely dangerous in your child ingest it. Use the same precaution with chemicals as you do cleaning products.

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    Grand Master Reefer saltaddict's Avatar
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    Does the tang not ever swim out in the open to get a pic?

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    Grand Master Reefer Amphibious's Avatar
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    James, thank you for that emotional tug on my heart. I appreciate hugs, even from the boys. With that impressive list of references, it seems as though you have done your homework. If you dug those up to impress someone, few people now days will bother to chase down a reference without a direct link to the info. A lazy bunch we’ve become in this day of instant everything. If you actually have read all that information, I am impressed, even proud of you. I guess the only thing for me to add at this moment in time, is to implore you to remember the important things as they pertain to your compulsive or impulsive actions in everyday life. When standing in a LFS peering at another irresistible critter, that is the time to recall all that pertinent information you have stored in your cranium as to why you should wait, instead of justifying the purchase because you’ve waited 2 years to find one. Don’t take me wrong. I’m guilty of the same action in the past. Now, I pass up on many fish (especially fish) because my systems are not prepared for them. Bringing in a fish without a quarantine system is tantamount to purposefully and knowingly eating a burger tainted with e. coli bacteria. Not something you would do, yet we bring home Ich prone fish and introduce them to our DT. I learned my lesson a long time ago. I hope you and the Newbies reading this will learn from OUR mistakes and not have to PROVE it to themselves that similar actions will get disastrous results MOST of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by CompulsiveAqua
    Picture?????...impossible
    Nothing is impossible, James. You are well aware of our passion for pics. Do the best you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by CompulsiveAqua
    911....My daughter got a hold of some Ca additives and poured a ton in my tank
    Saltaddict is correct. Water changes will do the trick. You should know by this morning how things are. Please let us know.

    Dick
    Amphibious

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    Expert Reefer CompulsiveAqua's Avatar
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    Wow, haven't been on here in a while...feel like I'm at church.
    Addict: My daughter is well old enough to not drink gasoline...lol...she just wants to be like Dad sometimes. The Tang does come out, but is still a little shy. I am shooting a video right now that I will chop up into pictures for you. See Dick, Nothing is impossible
    Dick: Since you link everything in the fish world to life lessons....are you homophobic? It seems that you always overcompensate when physical gestures are made to you from the boys (i.e James, thank you for that emotional tug on my heart. I appreciate hugs, even from the boys)......and the you are over zealous when it comes to the girls in posts (i.e. previous posts I been in with you). I could look them up an cite them if you wish? Yes, I have a file of all the stuff I've read about fish....links aren't needed (cut and paste), I'm a student, remember? Did you meet your new squeeze, you referenced, online? Or is it a virtual control thing?, the reason you have to seem so commanding over the newbie population? Basically, I asked for help with a situation already in progress and next time would love the life lessons to be kept out. The newbies can read the huge data base of files you have on rights and wrongs of reefing. Love you Dick, just like I love every other human being on this planet....if you don't wanna respond to my post....I will understand.
    LARRY!!!!

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    Grand Master Reefer saltaddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CompulsiveAqua View Post
    Wow, haven't been on here in a while...feel like I'm at church.
    Addict: My daughter is well old enough to not drink gasoline...lol...she just wants to be like Dad sometimes. .
    Well in that case - SHE is old enough to know better and to have her butt busted for it!

    Feel better.

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    Grand Master Reefer saltaddict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CompulsiveAqua View Post
    Dick: Since you link everything in the fish world to life lessons....are you homophobic? It seems that you always overcompensate when physical gestures are made to you from the boys (i.e James, thank you for that emotional tug on my heart. I appreciate hugs, even from the boys)......and the you are over zealous when it comes to the girls in posts (i.e. previous posts I been in with you). I could look them up an cite them if you wish? Yes, I have a file of all the stuff I've read about fish....links aren't needed (cut and paste), I'm a student, remember? Did you meet your new squeeze, you referenced, online? Or is it a virtual control thing?, the reason you have to seem so commanding over the newbie population? Basically, I asked for help with a situation already in progress and next time would love the life lessons to be kept out. The newbies can read the huge data base of files you have on rights and wrongs of reefing. Love you Dick, just like I love every other human being on this planet....if you don't wanna respond to my post....I will understand.
    I seriously cannot believe you would actually have the nerve to write such a statement and then actually push send.
    I would suggest in your future "Compulsive" decisions that you do not post them unless you want honest answers.
    You were simply given honest answers and in return have made ignorant statements.

    Dick has far more experience than any of us and most of us look to Dick to assist us when we are stumped or simply need to bounce ideas. He is and always has been more than willing to help anyone that post on this board or sends him a message.
    I have met Dick as well as some others from TR in person and can tell you that all that know him have nothing but ABSOLUTE respect for him.

    Do you have any idea what a Homophobe is?

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    Grand Master Reefer Amphibious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CompulsiveAqua
    I am shooting a video right now that I will chop up into pictures for you. See Dick, Nothing is impossible
    If I remember correctly, and I do, it was you that said...

    Quote Originally Posted by CompulsiveAqua
    Picture?????...impossible
    Quote Originally Posted by CompulsiveAqua
    Dick: Since you link everything in the fish world to life lessons....are you homophobic? It seems that you always overcompensate when physical gestures are made to you from the boys (i.e James, thank you for that emotional tug on my heart. I appreciate hugs, even from the boys)
    How could you possibly link my fish world and life lessons to me being homophobic? That doesn’t even compute, James. One of my life long friends is gay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dictionary
    homophobia |ˌhōməˈfōbēə|
    noun
    an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people.
    What are you trying to say? What physical gestures from boys are you referring to? Beats me what you are driving at. I was merely pointing out it’s not shameful for men to hug boys or other men for that matter. Oh wait a minute, James, are you? No, impossible. You’re married and have a daughter. But wait, there have been cases of homosexuals marrying as a cover. But I really doubt you would do that. No that’s impossible, your too macho.

    Quote Originally Posted by CompulsiveAqua
    and the you are over zealous when it comes to the girls in posts
    Well you got me there, James! Of course girls are God’s greatest creation! Why wouldn’t I be over zealous toward the better half of mankind? Being the way I am toward girls has gotten me many wonderful memories and life long friends.

    Ok, this has been fun but has gone beyond the realm of reality. I’m off this thread!

    Thank you saltaddict!

    Dick
    Amphibious

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    Assistant Moderator rayme07's Avatar
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    This argument is getting a little over hand and now is starting to attack one another, please keep it civil or I will have to close the thread. Thanks
    Ray or Raymond
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    so..... I guess the lesson here is QT your fish?

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