ICK in the DT

[mpcolson]

OK I have Ick in my DT from some where. I guess it was from the fish I got prior to my QT set up.

Now I have a question on treatment, I need to pull out the fish with the spots. My cleaner shrimp has been trying his best to remove the ulcers but he hasn't gotten rid of all of them.

So pulling the fish that's affected to the QT will be an easy treatment. BUT, to get the Ick from the tank... thats another story. I understand that ick treatments kill inverts. As does salinity swings and excessive temp changes.

How do I rid the Ick from the DT? I have the cleaner shrimp in there, a Emerald crab, A polyp of Ricordea and, numerous hermits and snails doing there bit to clean and sweep up from my kids over feeding.

Do you have a product suggestion? Or is there a natural method I can use to starve out the Ick in the tank?

(This is where I get a big "I TOLD YA SO!!!" from all the veterans that preach QT first!.. I bow humbly at the alter of the Great Goby.)

[CarmieJo]

Remove all the fish from the DR and put them in QT. Ich needs a fish host so if you let the tank go fallow for 6 weeks it will die off. How are you going to treat the fish, copper or hyposalinity?

[mpcolson]

Thats what I wanted advice about. Not using copper because I will be using QT for coral acclimation evenutally.

Hyposalinity I guess will work, not sure how thats done. I need to look that up.

I guess I can leave the inverts in the DT for the 6 weeks while the parasite dies out?

[Rostr02]

The most important thing would be to get the current fish out and in a qt. Are any of your other fish showing signs of having a problem?

Well Matt you wont get the "I told you so" from myself. Cause now you know better.

Bobby

[mpcolson]

One of my blue green Chromis disappeared. I never saw any bumps or snow on him. I cannot find him either. And I had a yellow watchman that is AWOL. I have removed rocks and searched but I cannot find remnants of either of these fish so I guess a crab or worms have gotten them.

I assumed the watchman just found a really secret hiding space but when I went looking for the chromis, the watchman was no where to be found. I haven't done any water tests lately because I hadn't added anything to the tank. I just did a weekly 10% water change and checked salinity. Always 1.025-1.027 by refractometer readings.

The Watchman was the last fish in I suppose he was the carrier of the Ick.

The only recent addition I had is a single Ricordea polyp. Not exactly a huge load on the bio-sphere.

But now my Coral Beauty is fighting the specks of white. And as I said the Cleaner shrimp is doing the turbo spin on him every so often. That symbiotic relationship is kinda cool but I need to clear this up.

[CarmieJo]

To do hypo you want to drop your SpG to 1.009 and keep it there for six weeks. You need to use a refractometer to accurately measure the SpG. Here is an article http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php that talks more about ich.

[mpcolson]

CarmieJo said

Here is an article http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php that talks more about ich.

Funny thing was I was reading that as her entry popped in my email notification. At least I'm learning where to get good information.

Thanks Carmie!!!

[saltaddict]

Matt - how is the QT and hypo salinity working for your fish?

[saltaddict]

Everyone knows you should QT but people vary the time frame and the methods they use to do this.
Curious about your opinions:


Ich is attached inside the gills of the fish as they are collected from the ocean??

If we are putting a fish in a QT for only four weeks without any other type of treatment when we buy it, are we really keeping ich out of the DT when the life cycle is much longer than four weeks?

In my opinion, if you truly want to keep ich out of a DT you must QT for 6-8 and incorporate another type of treatment for all fish you intend to add.

On the same note, what are you putting in you DT when you add a new pc of LR?

[mpcolson]

Matt - how is the QT and hypo salinity working for your fish?

According to the article that CarmieJo referenced I did a freshwater dip for 10 minutes and then started the QT hyposalinity with BB setup. The water was taken from the DT but I did a 50% change after day one.

I am QTing both remaining fish from my DT for good measure. Both the Coral Beauty and the lone Blue-Green Chromis seem to be OK so far.

The freshwater dip did scare me a little as I can't wrap my head around putting a saltwater fish in a freshwater tank and accept that is beneficial in some way. I need to keep up with the processes as prescribed for 6 weeks I believe. Meanwhile the spore of the Ick will die with out a host fish in the DT after 6 weeks.

To your second post, This same article addresses the question of Ick in your purchased livestock by suggesting that you ALWAYS do a freshwater dip and QT any new addition to your tank. The freshwater dip pops the ulcers and the time in the QT allows the fish to heal and develop a slime coat. This seems to be good advice that I believe I will follow as I think my LFS has ick in its systems. So since I only have one source locally I need to adapt.

The good news is so far I haven't had to use any chemicals at all. I am really trying to not use chemicals in my tanks. I think this is important as I fear that I will use something that inadvertently causes a disaster from bad salesmen or omitted warnings.

So I am learning from my mistakes, thankfully I haven't lost thousands of dollars on these lessons.

[Amphibious]

Excellant questions.

Ich is attached inside the gills of the fish as they are collected from the ocean??

While Ich is not prevalent on the reef, due to the vastness of the environment, it is there. So it’s possible bringing it into captivity attached to the gills or even the body of a fish. The divers, remote villagers for the most part, are not looking for white spots but trying to eek out a living by catching as many fish as possible. They get paid in change compared to what we pay for their catches. In the confines of our DT, Ich is much more likely to get a hold and cause havoc.

If we are putting a fish in a QT for only four weeks without any other type of treatment when we buy it, are we really keeping ich out of the DT when the life cycle is much longer than four weeks?

The life cycle is about 4 weeks under normal ocean temps of mid 70s. We can speed it up by raising the temp of our QT to 82/84 or sometimes higher. We also can control the specific gravity, normally 1.025, taking it down to a hypo condition. Carmie mentioned 1.009. One must use extreme caution when going that low. I prefer hypo treatment in the 1.012 to 1.015 range. The reason hypo salinity is effective is the parasite’s outer layer of protection is structured to protect the inside from infusion of salt water. By lowering the specific gravity, making the water “thinner”, it’s protective outer barrier is compromised, “thinner” water (hypo water) rushes in and destroy’s the parasite. At least that is how I understand it. I know it works. Anytime you a have a fish in QT it must be observed closely for signs of additional stress. If it is noted that stress is increasing you must change conditions, such as raising the salinity slowly over a few hours or lowering the temp SLOWLY over time.

On the same note, what are you putting in you DT when you add a new pc of LR?

Great question. You always risk bringing in unwanted guests when introducing anything whether from an importer, LFS or fellow hobbyists. While QTing LR or LS seems unnecessary, it would be prudent to QT it for 4 weeks in a tub or other such structure. It wouldn’t have to be a “Spa QT” system, just isolation.

[Amphibious]

Getting an outbreak of Ich is inevitable in a DT when a QT is not employed as part of your normal “Best Practice” of aquarium husbandry. It’s going to happen eventually. If you are running a UV Sterilizer the chance is reduced but not eliminated. A UV sterilizer can only affect what passes through the unit. It has no effect on “bugs” swimming around the DT. I have highly recommended the use of UV as another tool against parasites since the late 1960s. It is one of the “Best Practice” tools.

Most of you know I have a different idea about a QT tank. In the general literature a QT tank is often called a “hospital” tank where you treat sick fish. If you follow my “Best Practice” ideas you know I don’t treat sick fish in my QT. My QT is not a hospital tank it is a “Spa Quarantine System”, or Spa QT.

When I buy a fish, I don’t QT it because I think it’s sick. I put it into quarantine because I know absolutely for sure it is stressed out. Every one, every time, guaranteed. It may not show to you at the time. I also know for certain the water it has been in from capture through the various handler facilities and even your favorite LFS is of dubious quality and probably contains one stage or another of parasites. I’ll guarantee it’s immune system has been compromised. That fish is vulnerable to becoming “sick”, very vulnerable. BUT, the good news is, you control the situation from before you buy the fish to it’s ultimate living or dying.

It’s your responsibility once you plunk down the “paper or plastic”. That fish is no longer the responsibility of the LFS! It’s yours, you made the decision to make the “buy”. Now, take it home and dump it right into the DT. Oh but wait, you have to stop at Sam’s Club, or stop for lunch, or a beer, or stop at your mom’s, or whatever. You see where I’m heeded here? I know people that have held their new fishy, already stressed to the max, for hours before getting it home and then dumping it into the DT. Those are NO NOs. Buy the fish after all the other errands are finished and get it home in as short a period of time as possible.

Before you plunk down the “paper or plastic” for any fish there is something else you can, must do, to assure you are getting the best fish possible. You must learn to do what most people don’t do and that is, “look past the beautiful colors". You have no idea how many times I’ve seen people pointing out a fish to a LFS employee and saying, I want that one. And the fish is in very obvious trouble. sometimes with the Ich Trophont clearly visible. I have even, when the opportunity was right, pointed out to people that the fish had a visible infection of parasites. I’ve also been asked to leave a LFS on various occasions.

So how do you become the buyer of healthy fish? Glad you asked. I wrote an article, “Nine Simple Rules” that gives you a guideline to buying the healthiest fish and keeping them healthy. It is followed up with my “Spa Quarantine” ideas. If you haven’t read it please do, you and your fish will benefit greatly. If you have read it, it doesn’t hurt to refresh your memory with another read through. It can be found on the opening page of TR (I’m honored to be there.) or you can find it on my web site, here’s the link - "Nine Simple rules"

To those that have contacted me after reading that article, thank you. Know that I greatly appreciate your comments and criticisms. What works for one doesn’t always work for others because of the many variables involved in interpretation and set-up. My methods have worked wonders for me for 40+ years, they will work for the majority of you that follow them closely.

[saltaddict]

Thanks sweet Dick.

I posted those "questions" because I read a lot of post on TR about people using QT's or not using QT's and I have noticed that no one really talks about "what" they are doing with their fish to rid the parasites other than placing them in a separate tank for an undetermined amount of time.

IMO - which we all know what those are worth:
All new additions should be treated as if they do have parasites and steps should be taken to rid them of their unwanted guest during their QT which I am sorry but I don't agree with 4 weeks.

Simply putting them in a QT and watching them does not always bring out the lurking parasites. It stands to reason that yes, the fish are stress from catch, transport and such but when you place them in a tank "alone" for them to recover the stress is somewhat diminished so they really have no reason to ich out.
Now here we are a few weeks later and the little critter is eating well and has looked fine so lets net him and drop him in the tank. The other tank mates are checking him out trying to set the boundaries and now he has a reason to stress out.

If you treat up front and QT for an extended period of time and then acclimate them to the tank without allowing the others to bombard then you will have much happier fish.

As for the dropping in of LR - I don't do it. It also gets placed in QT where there are no host for at least 6 weeks.

YES, everyone likes and wants to see their new additions in the DT now! But when you give thought to the purchasing of a fish, bringing it home and then essentially killing it within a month or so , it is not right.
That doesn't even take into account the amount of time and money you have invested in your DT just to blow it.

Like I said - My Opinion.

[saltaddict]

Ok - I forgot a few things.

While Ich may not be prevalent on a reef the fish you are buying from a LFS has many fish in one tank from who knows where. I have been at one LFS right after a shipment has arrived and while looking in five gallon buckets at the fish waiting to go in tanks there was at least one in each bucket covered in Ich.
All fish were put in the tanks together and the personnel said they treat with copper. I have been in this store many times and asked to used the restroom just so I could see their set-up in the back. All tanks in the store including inverts and corals were integrated with one another. It stands to reason, they were not using copper.

I do hypo at 1.009 but I drop it very slowly and raise it very slowly.

Dick,
I was not attacking your QT methods as I know you baby your fish and your Spa works great for you. You are the Man!

[Amphibious]

I was not attacking your QT methods as I know you baby your fish and your Spa works great for you.

I didn’t think you were attacking me. Please don’t think I was challenging you. You know I can be wordy in my responses. It’s because the answer that is most helpful to others is often in the details. You and I, and many others, have the experience to interpret things better than less experienced reefers and Newbies could be left in the dark. With that in mind, I go on clarifying for those that questions are raised by this excellent exchange of information.

I have noticed that no one really talks about "what" they are doing with their fish to rid the parasites other than placing them in a separate tank for an undetermined amount of time.

I don’t automatically assume there are parasites to treat. I do my best to NEVER treat fish in QT with a medication. Here’s how I’ve been very successful at this.

Before buying a fish, it is scrutinized in close detail for many minutes. Observing it’s behavior at the LFS is critical to my decision to buy or not to buy. Obvious things like the body being covered with “salt” spots or EVEN ONE spot, I’d leave it there. You don’t need to take any fish home that you know in advance is carrying the Ich parasite. Other signs of over stress or invasion would be, scratching against objects (indicating a parasitic irritation), rapid breathing (indicating a parasitic gill infection), open lesions on body, fins rotting away, off color, hanging at the surface gasping, and a few other things. Anything abnormal to normal behavior is a warning. Heed the warning and leave it behind. You don’t want to intentionally bring home an infected fish even if you are running a QT. Often, I will walk way from a fish and come back in a day or two to check out how it’s settling in and then further evaluate whether to buy or not. In LFSs that know me, I’ll ask for them to “hold” the fish for 24 hours so it’s not sold to neon else (this is if I really want that particular fish). Don’t expect cooperation in a LFS that doesn’t know you. And be sure and go back in 24 hours and make your decision.

All new additions should be treated as if they do have parasites and steps should be taken to rid them of their unwanted guest during their QT which I am sorry but I don't agree with 4 weeks.

Several things we should agree upon. First, we can disagree and not take it personally. Second, if you are getting results that meet your QT goals, then that’s the method you should use. I explain my methods to help reefers who have never set up a QT or are not seeing the benefit of their method of QTing. At the four week mark my fish are usually in prime condition and ready for the transfer to the DT. IF they need more time in QT, they get it. It’s “what ever it takes”.

when you place them in a tank "alone" for them to recover the stress is somewhat diminished so they really have no reason to ich out.

Two things. The purpose of my method (Spa QT), is for that very purpose, to reduce stress, build their immune system’s own defense through vitamin fortified food, comfy warm surroundings, lowered salinity to burst the little Ich bugs into oblivion. Second, it isn’t the fish that finds a reason to "Ich out”, it’s the Ich that finds an opportunity to run rampant. The fish is the victim not the perpetrator. I know you knew that, it’s mentioned for those that didn’t know.

Now here we are a few weeks later and the little critter is eating well and has looked fine so lets net him and drop him in the tank. The other tank mates are checking him out trying to set the boundaries and now he has a reason to stress out.

Well, you don’t just net him and drop him in the DT. Very true, there will be some quarrels. This cannot be avoided. We have to introduce him sometime. Better after he is rested, eating regularly, fattened up, than fresh from the LFS.

If you treat up front and QT for an extended period of time and then acclimate them to the tank without allowing the others to bombard then you will have much happier fish.

I don’t believe in treating (such as medicating with copper) unless there is an outward sign of a disease. The medication is a POISON even to the fish. I haven’t “medicated” in the QT since I took a different approach (Spa QT) 30 years ago.

To be sure everyone understands, I do “treat” all new corals with a Coral RX dip (15 to 30 minutes) before introduction to the system.

YES, everyone likes and wants to see their new additions in the DT now! But when you give thought to the purchasing of a fish, bringing it home and then essentially killing it within a month or so , it is not right. That doesn't even take into account the amount of time and money you have invested in your DT just to blow it.

This outcome is what you, I, and the other regulars, spend so much time preaching about. I totally respect anyone’s method as long as they are achieving a healthy end product for introduction to their DT. Those that don’t QT, are playing Russian Roulette with their entire DT and eventually the chamber with the bullet will come up.

OK this has gotten too woody.

I do have things to get done today. Class over.

LMAO.

[saltaddict]

OMG Dick - that is a lot to read and respond to. I will read through it and try to get to it tonight.

[Amphibious]

There no need for you to respond to each point. If you have a comment or addition that would be great. This is good dialog for others to read and learn that there is more than one way to a successful QT and DT.

[saltaddict]

Ok - it is early so I will make this brief.

Yes, the fish is the victim and becomes most vulnerable when stressed. I do agree that if they are SPA'ing it out for a month, eating all the food that comes in the tank, no one to bother them except the "crazy" man that taps on the glass they do fatten up and feel ever so relaxed.

Taking the extra HYPO step to give them a little extra protection when they do get stressed upon entering their new real world doesn't hurt.

I do not use medication in my DT or QT either - hypo salinity is used and if others issues present themselves then the critter is removed to a container that can be thrown away.

YES, we can agree to disagree.

Walking away from an impulse purchase is the best idea especially if you are taking every precaution to preserve your DT.

[SaltyDawg]

Good discussion. While I currenly dont have a QT, when I start my next project the nano will become one. Something I'm wondering about is...different corals have dfferent "hardiness" levels. So say I want to do hypo, how do I determine what salinity and for how long to do it? Is 1.009 the lowest you can go before death occurs? Is it still possible after the QT process to introduce unwanted nasties into the tank? And one more..would running a uv sterilizer on a QT speed up the recovery of something like ich?

[mpcolson]

Salty

To remove the Ick ulcers from the fish the first thing you do is place the fish in a freshwater bath for 5-8 minutes. This actually pops the white spots and the fish looks ick free. That is stage one of the treatment.

Moving to stage two, Hypo salinity treatment. Hypo salinity is done on fish only as I understand it. Because it removes the Ick parasite and other bugs etc. 1.009 is the lowest that is suggested because any lower and your are basically using freshwater. Amphibious suggests in his post in this thread to use a higher base line of 1.012 to 1.015. He reasons this is a safer level and you get the same results.

You do the Hypo salinity in your QT over a 4-6 week period where you acclimate the fish to the lower salinity and gradually bring it back up to normal levels of 1.025 - 1.027. while this is being done you are also giving the fish a good vitamin enriched diet to fatten him up. hopefully when you are done the fish will be in better shape than ever and you will return it to your DT parasite free and all it's wounds healed.

Since Ick has a 21 day life cycle and it only lives on fish, if you have all your fish in the QT, you will be Ick free in your DT after the Hypo salinity process.

Now, corals do not get ick. They do have their own set of parasites and bugs but Ick is not one of them. So when you buy them or when you see them looking ill, you would first dip them in Coral RX for 5 minutes to remove bugs etc. then put them in QT with normal water and appropriate lighting to treat them. I think you should use the same QT policy with corals as fish, at least 3-4 weeks in QT to feed them and get them vitamins etc. to color them up and insure the coral in in tip top shape.

As far as a UV Sterilizer goes it would only kill the ick parasite if the flow rate was right and it was pulled through the unit BEFORE it hosted on a fish. Kind of a crap shoot if you ask me. If you add a fish to your DT that has ick on its gills and you did not quarantine it, then you stand a good chance of having ick in you tank even with a UV sterilizer. Thats what happened to me.

[saltaddict]

Salty - you do not want to HYPO your DT. If you let you r DT go without a fish host the cycle will break and the ich will be out of the DT. You can only HYPO fish. I do not fresh water dip my fish.

[Amphibious]

What saltaddict said

I have FW dipped a few SW fish and seldom have I been successful with the fish after. I would NOT FW dip as a general rule, as in every fish I put into the QT. If you’ve read my article “Nine simple Rules” and FOLLOWED the advice to the letter, you should never have to take the drastic measure of a FW dip. Trust me FW dipping a SW fish is a drastic measure.

[saltaddict]

Totally agree with Dick that FW dip is last resort drastic.

I equate it to sticking a human in a non-pressurize airplane at a high altitude for 10 minutes at a time - sounds fun.

[mpcolson]

I just wanted to set the record straight that I didn't just pull the FW dip out of the air. I was following the directions from the article in Reef Keeping Magazine that CarmieJo sent me in this thread. Click on the title and review it if you would like.

Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans,
A Discussion of This Parasite and Treatment Options Available Part II
By Steven Pro

Here are a couple of excerpts:

..."Freshwater dips are a highly effective form of treatment against a wide variety of parasites, although their use against Cryptocaryon irritans has been questioned (Colorni, 1985). I am including them here because I still choose to employ them, as I believe they have at least some effect against Ich and because they have been proven effective against Amyloodinium, Turbellarian Worms (the so-called Black Ich), some Flukes (Noga, 2000), and Uronema (Kollman, 2003). For these reasons, freshwater dips are still part of my standard operating procedure when receiving fish.
For some reason, many hobbyists are extremely reluctant and nervous about freshwater dipping their fish, yet show little concern about using toxins, poisons, and carcinogens, such as Copper or Formalin, for treatment. It is my contention that any fish that does not survive a properly conducted freshwater dip would not have lived regardless of treatment. I have dipped hundreds, perhaps thousands of fish, and have yet to kill a fish with a freshwater dip. I define this by the fish dying either in the dip bucket or within hours of the freshwater treatment. If a fish dies a day or two later, while one may claim it was the result of the dip, it is more likely that the disease was too far along and the fish too damaged to survive...."

The article goes into the method of a properly executed FW dip here then goes on to close with this...

...With all that I have discussed concerning freshwater dips my position on its use may seem a bit murky. Just to clarify, I do employ and advocate the use of freshwater dips when first receiving fish. I believe all fish that can be dipped should be administered this treatment prior to placement into a proper quarantine tank. This is done in an effort to minimize all possible parasitic infections. I do not, however, recommend freshwater dips as a cure for Cryptocaryon irritans. In my opinion, the repeated handling and osmotic shock of repeated dips are far too stressful to warrant its usage when other proven, but less aggressive treatments are available such as hypo salinity or daily water changes. Lastly, assuming freshwater dips can kill the embedded trophonts on a fish, once they are returned to the infected aquarium, they are just going to contract this pathogen again. So, I recommend using them and using them once only upon receiving the fish to minimize all possible parasitic infections...."

Most of the regulars in the forum by now have figured out I'm a novice in this hobby and I am constantly seeking out useful information that hopefully is reliable. Based on your responses here, this article, at least this section, is a sticking point. I'm glad I brought it up.

[CarmieJo]

I FW dipped for ich as a pre-step to hypo back in the day. Because we better understand the lifecycle and I am so cautious I have not had ich since I have been back in the hobby.

Bob, to reiterate, corals don't get ich so hypo would not be used for them. It would be possible for a tomont to be on a coral and be introduced to the tank which is another reason why everything should be QT'd. The tomont stage can last as long as 28 days.

I don't hypo, copper or use any other prophylactic treatment in QT. Just low stress, good water quality and good food. They stay in QT for at least a month. I do dip corals in Revive before I QT them