LFS advice was "Don't do water changes until we say to do so."

[mpcolson]

Ok, I think I am using up my alotted forum space this weekend, I'm sorry.

I just took my water sample to my ONLY LFS in Oklahoma City to get my weekly water test done, as I mentioned in a different post I had a major aquascape disruption due to emergency removal of a killer crab.

The tank was started around 8/6/10

I had the previous week's results:

8/20/10 50 Gallon Tank
NO3 25
NO2 .3
NH4 .25
Calcium 420
pH 8.2
Salinity 1.023
Alk 13
Phosphate .50

This Week's Results after the "Crab Incident"

8/28/10 50 Gallon Tank

NO3 25
NO2 .3
NH4 .25
Calcium 440
pH 8.0
Salinity 1.024
Alk 10
Phosphate Test Not Run

The Results were basically the same! The LFS had sold me "Seachem's Stability" dosed at 6 capfuls daily until empty on 8/20/10. I have been following that advice. I had been doing a weekly 5 galllon water change ever since I started the tank.

This week the LFS tells me to up the Stability to 8 capfuls and she scolded me that I SHOULD NOT BE DOING WATER CHANGES UNTIL THE CYCLE COMPLETES. SHE SAID SHE WILL TELL ME WHEN I SHOULD DO THE WATER CHANGES. I need to be patient.

Her explaination was that each time I change the water I am forcing the system to recycle the fresh water.

DOES THIS MAKE SENSE?? I'm really confused I thought water changes were the best thing to do for your tank to maintain good trace elements and clean out ammonia.

I do add supplements once a week stronium and iodite. Twice a week I add buffer, calcium and, carbonite.

[CarmieJo]

Hi Matt,

I don't personally do water changes when cycling as I think it slows the cycle down. However, I don't think it will hurt anything. You are testing the water but the bacteria that drives the cycle lives in the sand & rock not the water. The ammonia, etc is consumed by the bacteria and converted to the next product in the cycle. Ie ammonia to nitrite to nitrate to nitrogen gas. Do you have any critters in your tank?

[AZDesertRat]

Water changes prolong the cycle, do not change water until the ammonia and nitrites have peaked and gone and nitrates are on the rise. When you change the watre you are removing the food the bacteria need to multiply. Nitrosonomas bacteria consume the ammonia from the water and create nitrires which the nitrobacter bacteria consume giving of nitrates which you then export by either water changes or other forms or removal like live rock, sand and macroalgaes once things are established.

DO NOT add supplements and additives!!! Unless you have a fully established system stocked heavily with SPS and LPS corals you have no demand for anything you are adding. Discontinue all additions. On day in the far future, based on regular testing you may find you have a demand for magnesium, calcium and alkalinity but everything else you are adding is snake oil, plain and simple. You will have EVERYTHING you need at this point in a good name brand salt mix and it gets replensihed with regular water changes once you are up and running.

You are going way way too fast. Slow down and let nature take its course, that includes the SeaChem crud and all of it. I would take all that stuff back to the LFS you bought it from and ask for store credit, its worthless to you. Instead, way in the future buy some two or three part calcium. alk, mag mix and be done with it. Even then you may never have a reason to supplement anything unless your are heavily stony coral stocked and your test kits tell you it is depleted number one and needed number two.

[mpcolson]

CarmiJo, You are gonna wanna crack me in the head with a rolled up magazine.

I have/had 6 turbo snails... now have 2 I think they were eaten by a crab. I had 6 narissius (check spelling) snails, down to one. I know they were eaten by that same crab. Several hermit crabs that I think are still in the tank. I don't know how many are alive. At least two but possibly more. AND the thing that you dispise I have 2 blue-green Chromis that are seeding the tank. They are very active and healthy.

The LFS won't sell me anymore snails now until I get my chemistry in order. The girl I had testing the water these last two times seems to have scruples I guess because I bought all the other stuff from them way back at the beginning of the month. A different sales person.

The thing is now I have aptasia growing, I have algea issues getting out of hand because my cleaners got whacked by that crab. And the store won't let me buy their stock... Until they determine the time is right.

AND according the AZDesertRat, I'm sitting on $150.00 worth of usless chemicals! I must have MOOCH stamped on my forehead!!!

It's a month into this and I am getting kinda hacked! This weekend is turning into a Twilight Zone episode.

[Rostr02]

Don't worry man we have all had some bad LFS advice, the snails and hermits should be ok but i would return those fish to the store for some credit. Don't worry about the algae it will be managed when you finish your cycle and start adding livestock, just make sure that you are using ro/di water.

The aptasia can be handled with some joes juice or a long list of other things and a needle and syringe.

The chemicals on the other hand, I would call them and speak to a manager or the owner of the fish store and explain how you got tricked into buying all these useless chemicals and would like a in store credit. If he refuses then tell him that you are dissatisfied and will be calling the BBB and reporting his establishment. this normally works.

[AZDesertRat]

Algaes are a normal part of the maturation process, you will probably go through several stages and types before it is over.
Aiptasia is easy with kalk paste, Joes juice or the natural method which I prefer with Peppermint Shrimp when the time comes.

Before you do anything else get yourself a API liquid master test kit for the ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and pH. You do not need to worry the least about calcium alkalinity and all the others at this point, that is way off in the future. Get your basics right and the others will follow. Again slow down, you have no calcium demand therefore it does not need to be monitored along with the alkalinity and magnesium. Once you begin regular water changes in a month or so the levels will stabilize from the fresh saltwater mix.

Go to the library and check out Bob Fenners "The Concientious Marine Aquarist" and read it cover to cover, you should be done with it about time your cycle is completed and you will have a much better understanding of what is needed and what you have going on. Bob is a great guy and a good friend and you will enjoy his writing style, he puts humor in everything to make it interesting.

[mpcolson]

AZDesertRat wrote...
You are going way way too fast. Slow down and let nature take its course

I think that is my main problem, and to think it took Alfred E Newman to address this! ha ha

Now that I've had some time to step back and regroup a little, I think I'll just take this advice and resign myself to the fact that you really can't rush Mother Nature. I also need to OPEN the books I bought again and read them over again.

I don't like being taken due to ignorance and I always tell my kids ignorance can be corrected where as stupid can't. I'm not STUPID.

You are correct that the algae will do it's thing regardless and the aptasia will be there when I get the peppermint shrimp whether that be this week or next month. I can't do much to stop that. I think I just reached a boiling point and should have stayed away from the PC.

I can say my tank is making great strides in that it is getting purple clorine on EVERYTHING, I have a colony of feather dusters growing and the Chromis fish that were seeders are doing well and eating well. They don't clamp fins or show any signs of disease. I need to focus on that more than the negative.

There I just had a Stewart Smalley moment! Thanks to everyone for allowing me to vent!

[CarmieJo]

Hey Matt,

Sounds like you have found a good clerk at the LFS. The others, I would avoid them. Better yet, ask us. Our only motive is to help. There are areas of legitimate disagreement like deep sand bed, shallow sand bed or bare bottom tank and you can find people here who do all three. I don't think you will find any long term member here who recommends dosing anything that you can't or aren't testing for. It is just too easy to overdose a tank. The trace elements are all in a good salt mix so as long as you are doing water changes they are being replenished.

I have never used any of the bacteria in a bottle or live sand in a bag type of products. So, when I say I don't recommend them it is not advice born out of experience. But, what my experience has taught me is that tanks always cycle on their own, usually in 2-4 weeks.

Just so you know, you don't have to use live fish or any live critter to start the cycle. You can get the same results by dropping a raw cocktail shrimp in the tank for a couple of days or just by adding a biggish pinch of fish food. All you need is something to bump the ammonia up. This article http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/co...t-Is-the-Cycle explains the cycle.

[Amphibious]

Hey Matt,

A couple of things...

First, when you are a Newbie it seems like everyone’s advice is different, who’s right, who’s wrong, who’s advice should you follow? It may seem to fly in the face of reason BUT through experience I, and most others in reefing, have discovered that LFS employees and even owners seldom give good advice. There are many reasons for this. Suffice it to say, the best place to get advice is on a forum of doers not LFS pretenders. Don’t get me wrong there are some good LFS employees, they are hard for Newbies to identify. You’re fortunate to have found TR.

Second, buy your own set of test kits as AZDesertRat suggested. If you are going to be a reefer please commit to becoming a “Responsible Reefer”. That means taking everything “reef” seriously and personal. Make it a habit to research everything. Build a library of reference material to refer back to. Our minds cannot recall everything when we need it. The three most important words in reefing are research, research and research. You’ll find, if you do your research it will guide you to more research and success.

Third, Many people have said, as AZDesertRat alluded to above, “Nothing happens fast in a reef tank except disaster”! The cycle takes time to complete. With todays methods there is no need to add any livestock to start the cycle. No crabs, snails, shrimp and especially no fish. It’s extremely stressful on them. Would you suck on a bottle of Ammonia cleaner??? NO!!! Don’t force your critters to do the same. Carmie gave you a link to her excellent article on the cycle, I’d like you to read another article getting a broader view of what goes on during the first year of a new tank. You’ll find Eric Borneman’s article, “The Building of a Reef (Tank)” very informative. Here’s the link - "The Building of a Reef Tank"

Fourth, I wrote an article about how to buy healthy fish and keeping them healthy. Many of my friends and peers have given this article good reviews calling it a “must read”. I’m humbly flattered by their comments. You’ll find it here - "Nine Simple Rules"

Finally, reefing is an extremely exciting hobby to be involved in. Just a few years ago, in the late ‘60s, when I started in SW, we were lucky to be able to find a LFS that even had a SW section. I had to drive from Madison WI to Milwaukee (1 1/2 hours back then) or Chicago (2 1/2 hours) just to find SW fish. Keeping coral and most invertebrates was unheard of. We had very poor “luck” keeping anything alive for more than a few weeks. Anything that lived a few months was pure joy. Their ultimate demise was a big disappointment. Through perseverance and determination (That would be research x3) I learned what to do and success followed. Through the next 40+ years everything has evolved into a very stable methodology that if followed will lead even a Newbie to success in a short period of time. If, on the other hand, a Newbie doesn’t reach out for help and follows the advice of ILL informed LFS people, they will fail and we’ll lose a potential reefer, not to mention a lot of livestock along the way.

Last word, at least for now , from this old reefer is this - There isn’t an endless supply of fish, coral and invertebrates available for us to be careless and not learn the correct husbandry to keep them alive as long as humanly possible. It is imperative we learn and practice correct principles and methods. I’m sure you know that but I mention it now and again for those reading my posts who might not realize it.

Good luck is not happenstance, it comes to those that prepare through research and practice.

Dick

[mpcolson]

To Carmie & Dick,

Thanks to both of you for all your help and insight here in the forums.

Carmie, I have read your article on how to properly cycle a tank. I read the day after I bought / was sold all the critters and fish. Thats why I joking said you would want to pop me in the head with a rolled up magazine. You always seem to have answers to my questions when ever I post here. I value your input tremendously. But once I had the stuff in the tank I felt like I was down that road so I stayed there.

Thats the way I did it in 1986, it isn't the humane way now but it worked then according to the LFS it works now. "you should be cycled in 2-3 weeks" she said. That was a sales job. Comes back to I need to read more and act more slowly.

Dick, the same goes for you my friend. Once I get a response from the two of you I consider the case closed. I also read your "Nine Simple Rules" article, I posted a remark that I am going to get a QT now based on that article alone. I had always thought that was a sales ploy, the article made perfect sense to me. I think alot of it is common sense, but I started looking at my LFS differently.

And just to clear things up... I do test my own water. I have a test kit both basic and a reef master kit ( don't need it yet) but I was discharged from the US Air Force for color blindness. Slight hues are difficult to see. So I have the LFS check my results. pinks are hard to see as are subtle shades of yellow. Thats not good when testing Ammonia and Nitrates etc.

I have read "Marine Aquarium Handbook - Beginner to Breeder by Martin M Moe" and the much more complicated companion book "The Marine Aquarium Reference - Systems and Invertebrates by Martin M Moe" and the "Salt Aquariums for Dummies" The talking Reef Forum has been a gold mine of information for me, I think I have gotten more information from the pod cast and forums than I could ever get from buying hundreds of dollars in books. The information is fluid and the people like yourselves seem to really know your stuff.

As I said yesterday and AzDesertRat suggested I think my biggest thing is I need to gear down a little and take a time out.

[CarmieJo]

Matt, with your attitude and willingness to take advice I think you will be just fine!

[Amphibious]

+1, what Carmie said.