last weeks rant

[mysterybox]

Take a deep breath.........talking about Sundays Talkingreeflive6

The rant sounded to me as almost "anti newbie". Let's make newbies uncomfortable for asking the same question as someone else has done. Actually, let's kick the crap out of a newbie that just wasted 50 hours of his/her time last week correcting mistakes some LFS advised him or her to make that they didn't know better, and on top of it ,it cost him or her 50 bucks! What's up with that? Rob tried to make a recovery, but....................whining about someone that asks a question because something died after they were told that it was ok to just put something in their tank after a 1 hour cycle?
Granted, some people just don't listen. But........who do you listen to? Who do you know that has the correct answer? You have 100 people telling you 100 ways on how to do something. Which one is right? How do you know who to trust? In addition, the reason that some people don't listen, is that they cannot comprehend the entirety of Reefkeeping. What stability means to them is different to you. Newbies really should be "trained" & licensed to care for stony corals to insure their success. No....I'm not saying that for real, just trying to make a point....just look around at other professions, hobbies, animal caretakers, and you'll see only very, very specialized people can care(or should) for Alpacas, lynxes, servals, monkeys, etc. Now of course, some animals are dangerous, but the specialized care is a huge factor in reefkeeping & other exotic animails. You can learn a lot from a book, web sites, etc., but you cannot learn "how to ride the bike", without doing it. A dog is mostly, duh! They are overall, fairly easy with a little research. Most people have been around dogs some part of their life. Parrots, a little tougher, but with some knowledge there is room for error. There is almost no room for error with reefkeeping and there is 27 different things that you have to watch every day and 50 million things that could go wrong at any time.

I hope i don't come across too strong, just thought I'd say that we were all just newbies once, trying to make things work, trying to ride a bicycle from a book & skinning our knees in the process.
Was that a rant or what?
Ralph

[Rob]

mysterybox,
i do agree.. and this is why it was a RANT..
as i stated .. its hard, its something i struggle with... how to get this info across... and really what it comes down to its stressing the need for research.. but people only know this after some one they trust tells them.. well the newbie has to find that person then draw that info out...

that said, thanks for your feedback...
this wek we will be talking about Tangs..
make sure you join in and provide your feedback there..

[lReef lKeeper]

i see where you are coming from, and it was in NO WAY meant to scorn anyone for anything. i was just preaching RESEARCH BEFORE YOU BUY !! i know that a lot of times it is a newbie mistake, BUT IMHO, impulse buys happen by people who know better, but they do it anyway. they go out and buy something because they think it is cool and unusual but have no idea what kind of care that it needs, or their wife will go out and buy them something crazy for the tank knowing nothing about it. i have seen someone go out and see a seahorse (for the first time) and buy it. they take it home to an SPS reef with 30-40x turnover and wonder why it dies. seahorses can not survive in that kind of flow. if they would have researched it ... they would have found that out. THAT is waht my "rant" was about. sorry if it rubbed you the wrong way, but that is my opinion. you would not believe the posts that i answer about angels in reefs too. they buy them because they are awsome looking fish, but wonder where their polyps are disappearing to.

[mysterybox]

bobby, it wasn't a personal attack. Your point on impulse buying is right on target. However, it seemed to me (maybe incorrectly) that newbies were putting things in their tank & asking you why it died. On that point alone, how can we (actually you) get through in a manner that relates to 18, 20, 40 year olds to understand the complex nature of reefkeeping? How can you train LFS to teach their customers? If I am at the LFS talking with someone that "seems to me" to know what they are doing, that in person "salesperson" is going to have way more effect than you online.....well, most likely anyway. There has to be a "cultural" change in this hobby to teach some basics to get people started ONE WAY (ok, maybe 2). How can we expect anything, when it takes a year just to figure out whose advise was right in the first place? Ok, maybe you had friends in the hobby, so you didn't go through it, but i didn't (I'm not bitter....just explaining k?), so who do I trust? How can you come up with 1 great way to start the first year as a FOWLR? Future soft coral? future SPS? Can't we simplify this complicated hobby for the newbie?

[mysterybox]

oh, and by the way, the chances of me being on your show with a yellow tang in a 55 is like...........humm..............another piece of great advice my LFS gave me. What to do now? I guess I should have fed it to my four foot worm!

[mysterybox]

Oh by the way Bobby, you didn't rub me the wrong way! IN GENERAL TO ALL FORUMS: I just would like more "open arms" & understanding to newbies and a possible "project newbie" to be set up to get them started. They get so turned around and so many quit the hobby. Those newbie threads are ok, but most advanced advice goes to advanced threads! I would have quit the hobby if it wasn't for Randy at Reef Central. That was over a year and a half ago, but he prodded, poked, & cared, & most importantly, followed up. Carmie did the same for me, but it wasn't at the same critical level. But what if I didn't get Randy? I would be out of this hobby. That's crazy!

[lReef lKeeper]

i agree with you 100%. i wish there was such a way to tell someone how to start a tank in 1 way, but unfortunately there is not. most LFS's are in it for the money, so they give the advice that they think the buyer wants to hear ... leading to them coming in and spending more money. unfortunately, there is nothing that i can do about that part of the hobby ... short of opening my own store (not gonna happen anytime soon). i think that the issues that are brought up here would be best handled by local area clubs, in education, and advertising in LFS's. to do this you need to have a good relationship with the stores. around here there are a couple in good standing with my club ... the others have the this is a business outlook (which i can somewhat understand) but they also think that clubs suck because we trade amongst ourselves and dont buy all of the stuff they have (but if you think about that we trade frags of their corals with each other, but we also ALL have to buy from the same stores unless we buy online).

i would absolutely LOVE to help out every newbie that comes into this hobby with their tank, but unfortunately they find this site after the mistakes are made, due to bad LFS advice (again and as you stated above). i think that you "project newbie" would be an awesome idea to get off of the ground. maybe some kind of general article put together from the thousands of post that we have all done here and elsewhere. i would have to get a lot of permissions to use posts and articles, but it might be doable. this could end up more like a book than an article, but we can surely see where it takes us. in closing though, it is going to have to start with the LFS's telling people to research before they buy or there will always be a problem on this subject.

BTW ... thanks for the feedback !! there are certainly no hard feelings here.

[mysterybox]

Well, thanks for listening, let's all be "sensitive" to newbies apprehension! But I'm sure it's probably an idealist view in what I am talking about.............humm.............there has to be a better way for them! They are the future! humm.................what about the best of the best rotating one web site for newbies.............too many ego's? humm....too many different ways? humm.............let's give that idea some thought, but is has to be real......live..........no memorex? no books. a human.........just thinking "out loud"

[CarmieJo]

Yeah, unfortunately bad advice abounds. Face it, most of us get at least our initial advice for this hobby at the LFS. As we all know there are good LFS and there are not so good LFS and your success may depend on which one you walked into. I also think that some of the same thing holds true for forums. I would never take advice from someone you don't know as the sole source of advice. You know that there are guys out there who will tell you that you never need to do a water change. Or that you can put an anemone in a tank that had barely cycled.

The bad thing about LFS is that people think that they should know what they are talking about. I believe that many of them do know their stuff. But there are ones that don't. There there are the big box pet stores. If you are lucky you will get someone who actually knows a little. Of course that kid might be off and you will get the one who doesn't know Purina 1 from Formula 1!

[mysterybox]

ok, we all agree! This hobby has a big problem. A very big problem..........can we make it better? Can there be a place to go that 90% of the lfs or online forums say, check out this site, or this. or that? What would that take?

[CarmieJo]

I don't consider myself a nay sayer but I don't think that you will necessarily get there with a forum. Too many of the LFS would not do so because they can't control the info. Several of the LFS here are carrying the Reef Hobbyist magazine which is free and that could be a venue.

[veriann]

mystery if your going to gripe, thats how you do it tastefully..lol

The newbie issues is always going to be a factor guys. Your not far off the grading factor though bud. At the very least any newbie should be restricted to keeping Fish Only for a year at least, its honestly the best way to bite off more than you can chew without coming a gutza! um, maybe to much ozzie speak ... loosely translated,

"an environment capable & with a greater margin for error"

LFS will be LFS, external financial demands and an infinite but paradoxically restrictive workforce will never give consistent results.

Personally Ive given up on the individual movements as a whole & turned the attention towards the greater movement.
The future for this hobby (V's Tip) will be out of the reach for blow-in weekenders.

With the oceans stocks dieing or extracted fruitlessly by humanities colder side, eventually its going to drive prices sky high, & cultivations of existing captive species will mainly be in the control of the committed.
Now the majority of these committed wont just hand over a couple frags to anyone without having an understanding of their skill level, & as such the guidance factor hits the ground running prompted by those whom read & write in these very pages as we speak.

please someone throw in the Quote ..
" the world is what we make of it ",
& i'll pitch back the idea that humans by creation are the unbalancing equation in this atomic relationship. natural selection indeed, We're just the ones that counted the chickens before the eggs if you catch my drift. The true natural selection hasn't happened yet. Muhahahaha

hey im saved here, cause its just a "R.A.N.T" right?? lol

[rroselavy]

Originally Posted by mysterybox

Granted, some people just don't listen. But........who do you listen to? Who do you know that has the correct answer? You have 100 people telling you 100 ways on how to do something. Which one is right? How do you know who to trust?

Here are my sources:

1) Determine the trusted experts (speakers/authors) in the field and read (or listen) to what they have to write (or say).

2) Find a successful mature tank and try to learn as much as I can about the husbandry behind it.

3) Accrue a base of knowledge by determining the overwhelmingly common experiences of experienced hobbyists.

4) Measure any advice from an LFS with the more reliable information of aforementioned sources. Discard whatever seems unsubstantiated or biased.

You can learn a lot from a book, web sites, etc., but you cannot learn "how to ride the bike", without doing it.

Agreed. It is only when the newcomer plunges into the murky waters that they put many pieces together. Things that they could not visualize or even believe become evident, and things just start to make sense. Careful observation, testing, and the practice of tank maintenance propel understanding and confidence. In time, the challenges shift from generic to more specialized areas of care.

Admittedly, I have tended to be paralyzed by lack of confidence. I feel as if I have the know-how and proper tools before embarking. For example, my first tank was FOWLR because I was not confident enough to maintain corals. I assumed that water parameters had to be perfect for corals, but did not realize that the corals may actually help process some of the detritus that causes sub-optimal water quality. Without this trepidation I may have learned even more than I have (sink or swim) over the past 20 months.

There is almost no room for error with reef-keeping and there is 27 different things that you have to watch every day and 50 million things that could go wrong at any time.

As Newton once wrote, "Pigmaei gigantum humeris impositi plusquam ipsi gigantes vident." Same thing applies here. We accrue fundamental knowledge and apply this body of knowledge to our own endeavors. We do not have to start from scratch, and hopefully that means that we reduce the 50 million things that could go wrong down to a few thousand.

The most important fundamental that I hope to put into practice is Tullock's (echoed by Borneman ) suggestion that we need "less technology and more biology" when caring for our tanks. This coincides with my more intuitive (yet practical) desire to keep things as simple as possible. I do not know if Ockham's Razor is necessarily the appropriate approach when attempting to contain a diverse biotope in a few cubic meters, but at least it may be useful for scraping algae.

I have done a fair bit of obsessive research since I started into SW 20 months ago. In fact, I often have to endure the rolling eyes when my spouse or someone else asks what I am reading or studying. It has gotten so bad that I avert my eyes and sheepishly mumble out the words... ""Uh, nothing...just some reef geek stuff.."." My wife, of course, is left to endure my geeky obsession...

Newbies (like me) must be embraced.