Need Advise on 90 Setup

[Skurvey Dog]

I am currently in the process of trying to set up a 90g marine tank w/ built in overflow. It will be a fish only with live rock and a deep sand bed. I had a 55g tank and took it to the lfs and they built me a sump/fuge that I want to use for my DT. They sold me a Mag Drive 150 pump saying it would keep me from having to use two pumps on the system as it had the power to run the skimmer located in the sump as well. All appeared to be fine with me until I went on line to see what kind of deal I had gotten. I suddenly realized that even with paying for shipping charges, I could of saved myself about $150 if I had shopped around for the pump and skimmer. Also, the sump/fuge that was built for me cost me $250, instead of the estimated $130 they told me. Contrary to popular belief, ignorance isn't bliss... it's darn expensive. I understand the lfs has to pay the light bill, but I also do not want to be stiffed either. To further complicate matters, I had a solid oak display cabinet that I managed to modify so it could be used as my stand, only to find out that when the sump/fuge was inserted, there wasn't enough overhead room to make maintence on the skimmer and filter bags very easy. I found this out when the lfs brought my S/F to do the plumbing for the tank. I could have made it work, but maintenance would of been difficult and that I felt in the long run would take all the joy away. IMO He said he had a friend that built stands. I told him I wanted a bare bones, no fuss stand. Something someone would find in a garage, ect... a stand just to serve the purpose. He calls me to tell me it will cost $500! I was planning on using that money for the live rock and sand that I needed. I went to Lowes and priced materials that was listed for a blueprint to build a stand with the dimensions I needed and it was no where near what he quoted. Do they all charge about $300 labor? Or is the lfs tacking on a finders fee for the work? I have a family friend coming over tomorrow to see if we can modify the cabinet that I already have. If it can be done and measures level that problem will work itself out. I will let the lfs do the plumbing so it is done correctly. I am starting to not trust any lfs anymore.

I originally was going to buy 100lbs of LR from the lfs for $4lb and they were going to aquascape the tank for me, labor extra of course. Now, because of the trust factor, I am thinking about getting LR elsewhere and getting some DIY info. I want to have the back of the tank glass covered leaving the front free and open. I do not want to "Stack" the lr. I want to find information about maybe inserting some type of rods? to support the structure. Any suggestions and ideas would be most appreciated. Also, When I did my 20g reef tank, I used cut pvc pipe buried in the sand bed to keep my LR off of the sand to prevent dead space. What medium can be used safely in the 90g for the support base for the aquascaping?

Sorry for all the questions, but so far I'm in $800 and am reaching the bottom of my pocketbook. Are there any other things that I am overlooking and any suggestions to my ideas?

[NaClFinatic]

Research, research, research. It takes a lot of time but you will get a better idea of what you really want (without making costly changes later) and you will get an idea of what things should cost.

You might try plumbing yourself and that shoudl be much cheaper. Since you have a built in overflow, simply putting in two bulkheads and attaching a couple hoses isn't too difficult. Check out what some others have done. $4lb for LR sounds cheap, I would buy the rock and do aquascape myself.

[Skurvey Dog]

Thanks NaClFinatic I'm thinking that no matter how many years experience one has... there will always be things popping up that we need to investigate and do a little research on. That's what makes this hobby so very interesting. It is challenging and also rewarding. I am still interested with finding some articles on doing the aquascaping that I mentioned. I did have one question about the wall of live rock that I want to do on the back of the tank. I saw others who had installed spray bars to keep the rock clean and aireate the surfaces (Sorry for spelling). Is this a "MUST DO"? I also am wondering what the ratio differences that could be used with dry or base rock with LR to drive down the cost? I have read just as many good things as well as bad things about dry rock, which is lighter and less expensive. Also, if a year down the road... I decided to go with corals and the lighting neccesary to support those life forms, what could or should I be doing at this stage of the game. I know... one question leads to 5 more!

[CarmieJo]

You could certainly use base rock, just some LR to seed it. But $4 a pound is not a bad price. I HIGHLY recommend Home and they are a TR sponsor.

I am making the PVC stands for my rock for when I ever get around to moving my tank back into the living room.

Could you cut the bottom out of the cabinet you have to lower the sump?

[doctorthompson]

Originally Posted by Skurvey Dog

I did have one question about the wall of live rock that I want to do on the back of the tank. I saw others who had installed spray bars to keep the rock clean and aireate the surfaces (Sorry for spelling). Is this a "MUST DO"?

If you mean just using a concrete-like hardening foam or some type of aragacrete to rough up the back wall, no, at least not specifically for the wall of rock. Anytime you're using live rock as biological filtration you need a decent amount of water flow all throughout the tank. Be careful not to seal off a gap at the back of the tank where detritus can collect but water flow can't get into easily or you'll have nutrient issues down the line.

Originally Posted by Skurvey Dog

I also am wondering what the ratio differences that could be used with dry or base rock with LR to drive down the cost? I have read just as many good things as well as bad things about dry rock, which is lighter and less expensive. Also, if a year down the road... I decided to go with corals and the lighting neccesary to support those life forms, what could or should I be doing at this stage of the game. I know... one question leads to 5 more!

I find dry base rock much easier to work with for aquascaping just for the fact that it has no life on it so you can let it sit on a work bench for as long as it takes you to drill/cement/ziptie interesting forms together. The drawback is base rock needs a LOT of seeding time in a tank seeded with at least some high quality live rock to develop any measure of biodiversity - even aquacultured live rock that's been seeding in the ocean for 5 years is pretty devoid of life compared to a nice fresh stinky uncured chunk of live rock from the indo-pacific. Something to keep in mind if you use a lot of base rock and you're considering a dragonette or other planktivore, or any organism that has a listed requirement of "a mature tank" (high end anemones, etc..)

As far as keeping coral "down the road", it would really depend on what kind of corals you wanted to keep - and lighting isn't the only issue. I love my sun corals (Tubastrea sp.) that don't need any light at all and would probably survive just fine in a fish-only setup as long as the nitrates and calcium were maintained. Also, just because you're planning a fish-only tank doesn't mean you can necessarily skimp on lighting because you need to provide a comfortable/familiar environment. Depending on the species of fish you want to keep, this means matching lighting, aquascaping, and water flow - I doubt any fish would require metal halides to feel comfortable but I have a lyretail anthia (Pseudanthias squamipinnis) that goes completely buggy if I only have normal output bulbs burning above the tank all day (if I'm fixing the hood or something) - she'll constantly try to swim "up" and would probably end up on the floor if my tank was lit like some fish-only setups. PCs or T5s puts her right back at ease.