New 14 gallon BioCube

[R. Deschain]

Hello everyone,

I've been lurking here for the past year or so. I've spent a lot of time researching salt/reef tanks with an eye on a 120 gallon soon.

In the mean time I thought it would be neat to have a little tank in the kitchen to keep me and my family company, since we spend a lot of time there.

My plans are to have a clown fish and a small goby, as well as a clean-up crew (snails hermit crabs and a brittle star). Also wouls like some ricordia, mushrooms and maybe a hammer coral.

So today I actually spent money @ the LFS that I've been loitering at for the past year. I purchased the tank, as well as live sand and salt. Also, i bought a refractometer, and Spectrapure DI unit to attach to my existing RO Drinking water system. (currently only makes 9 GPD, but will soon upgrade it to 35GPD). I hooked the in line to the line that goes to my ice maker, hope this is alright.

Hope to soon make some salty RO/DI water, add live sand and live rock, and get this party started!

BTW, This site is way cool, and I've learned a lot from the podcasts and forums. Thanks to Rob and everyone else!

Hmmm...How do you post pictures?

[R. Deschain]

Another question. Has anyone been able to add an effective auto top off system to a tank like this without major breaking/cutting of plastic?

[V]

PJ, welcome to the mix.

auto-topoff can be achieved via dosing pumps. No drilling needed. however the float system has to be at the main water hight, ether that or in a sump. i dont know what your 14gal looks like, so i cant comment on the design, hence the best place to put it, but that would be my suggestion. On small tanks you can really get away with Ro top-off & manually add pre-mix salt or NSW when needed. If your talking large scale, a conductivity probe is needed so your dosing pumps can add both fresh water & salt to create your ideal parameters.

[CarmieJo]

Hi Psychojam & to TR.

I think a nano in the kitchen is a great idea! Please post some pix for us when you can.

[R. Deschain]

Thanks for the auto top-off advice Veriann. We're still finalizing where in the kitchen we'll put the tank. I will post pix soon.

[R. Deschain]

I'd like to throw another question out there. As stated above, i would like to put a clownfish in my BioCube, most likely an Ocellaris. I was thinking about an anemone. I'm considering a BTA because I've heard they are easier to keep and a wide variety of clowns will host in captivity.

My Questions:
1. First off, are the PC lights enough.

2. Is this tank (14g) too small.

3. What are the chances that the Ocellaris will host. I've heard that they are a bit fussy about who they host with.

4. If the Ocellaris is not a good choice, what other clowns would you recommend. I'm hopeing for small and hardy. (I also think the skunks are cool, but i'm not sure it will be Nemo enough for my two young girls.)

Thanks

[Larry Copperband]

Hmm...14g with a BTA. I can tell you it's not recommended.I have a Rose BTA in a 24g.An established,stable 24g.It was suggested the larger the tank,the better.
My ocellaris in my 55g won't go near an anemone,or at least haven't yet.
My Tomato clown took to an anemone in 1 day,but they get way to big for a 14g.
Tank raised or not seems to make no difference,since all my clowns are tank raised.
I'm afraid the deck is stacked against ya on this venture.Maybe someone,somewhere, had made it happen.I just know I wouldn't try it.

Best of luck with your new tank!

Larry.

[R. Deschain]

Well, After looking at the tangled mass of electrical cords stuffed behind the biocube as it sat on my kitchen counter, I envisioned fire and electrocution in my near future.

Thus, the tank goes in the office next to the computer. I'm now doing a 24 leak test. The trickely water sound I hear as i type this is actually quite soothing.

Also, I think I figured out how to attach pictures. Observe the proud owner and what I thought was a cool pic of my heater under the moon lights. (hopefully the contents of my tank will be much more interesting in the near future).

Cheers!
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[CarmieJo]

I agree with Larry. My BTA started out about the size of a bagel and now it is bigger than a dinner plate. Lots of people's clowns host other things like frogspawn, mushrooms, xenia that might be better suited to your nano. I think that if a clown wants to host it will take what is available. My maroon clown was hosting a cleft in my LR before I got the BTA.

[R. Deschain]

Thanks Larry and CarmieJo for the advice Re: the anemone. Looks like I'll have to wait until I get the larger tank.

Tonight put sand and RO/DI Saltwater in my tank. I heard about a method of circumventing the sandstorm, and I thought I'd try it. It involves putting the sand in a dry tank, then covering it with plastic bags, then a plate with a bowl on it. The water is poured slowly into the bowl. When the water rises, all of this can be removed slowly.

I'd say that it worked somewhat. I ended up with more of a "tropical sandstorm" than a "sand hurricane."


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[CarmieJo]

Nice! I believe the plastic bag trick makes a difference. Unfortunately I didn't know it and it took almost a week until you could through my tank.

[R. Deschain]

Tonight I put in 15 lbs of Tonga LR. The lady at the LFS was very helpful in helping me pick out some nice, colorful pieces. In fact she stayed 20 minutes after the store closed to help me. After puttting thr LR in, i saw a bristle worm poking his head out of a hole, but haven't seen him since.

A few hours after placing the LR, I checked my water parameters for the first time. In retrospect, I should have checked them before hand, because the Ammonia is already up. I'm using the Marineland (AKA Instant Ocean) test kits... (the jury is still out on whether I like them or not.)

Here are the results:

Ammonia 0.8 mg/l
Nitrite 0. 2 mg/l
Nitrate 0
Specific Gravity 1.024
pH 8.0
Calcium 375 mg/l
Phosphate 4.0 mg/l
Alkalinity 8.4 dKH
Temp 82

So here are my questions:

1. I'm used to using my freshwater test kits that read NH3/NH4, NO2, NO3 in ppm not mg/l. Does anyone know a conversion?

2. I'm surprised that I'm reading any NH3/NH4 and NO2 so soon. I guess i did add live sand yesterday, maybe that had some dead stuff in it.

3. I was also surprised by the high Phosphate reading. As stated before, we have an existing RO drinking water system to which added a DI unit. The TDS reading on the DI is 10 in and 0 out. Could I have brought some phosphate in on my LR?

Here's the new Aquascape...
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[R. Deschain]

O.K. Silly me!

When I looked closer @ my Freshwater kit it says that mg/L and ppm are the same.

[CarmieJo]

I wouldn't bother testing anything except SpG, NH3, NO2 and NO3 until after your tank has cycled. Just as a fail safe, retest the phosphate. That seems really high for a tank that has just been started with RO/DI. BTW, have you checked the phosphate of your RO/DI water? There shouldn't be any there but it is a place to start. No matter where it is coming from you will need to start bringing it down.

[R. Deschain]

Thanks for the help Carmie. I just checked my RO/DI water, and it is phosphate free. Any other ideas about the source of my problem?

Also, will phosban work when the levels are that high?

Will the high Ammonia & Nitrates affect the phosphate levels? - I'm thinking that phosphates are found in all organic matter, and my tank is cycling because of the dying and decaying of things on my live rock. Maybe this die off is raising the level.

I hope I can figure this out and fix it before i have a monster algae bloom!

One more thing, to raise the geek factor up a bit

Earlier I was confused about ppm vs. mg/l, then i discovered they were the same. Turns out that this is not exactly true. To be completely accurate, you multiply the mg/l by the specific gravity to get ppm. Therefore, in a freshwater tank, they would be the same.

[CarmieJo]

Decaying organic matter can release phosphates but that 4.0 is really high. I've never tested fot PO4 this early in the cycle so maybe it is not as startling as it seems. I've never had a phosphate level this high but I presume that a product like Phosban would still work to bring it down if it was inorganic. Hobbyist test kits are testing for inorganic. I don't think that these types of problems are effective in reducing organic phosphate. Water changes will reduce PO4 as well but I don't recommend water changes during the initial cycle. My gut reaction is to run Phosban and then do a 50% water change after your NH4 & NO2 hit zero. Since I've never had a PO4 level this high maybe someone who has will have more advice for you.

[R. Deschain]

Thanks for your input Carmie. After further inquiry, I'm going to follow your suggestion.

I've researched the net, posted on Reef central and talked with 3 people at the LFS about this issue, and here's what Ive gathered.

There are two schools of thought...1: Do something. 2: Do Nothing.

I'm siding with #1. Here's why. Phosphate is harmful to corals in high quantities, and food for nuisance algae, so generally, it should be kept low. While the tank is cycling, and the live rock curing, die off of organic matter will cause a rise in phosphates (PO4). PO4 will absorb into the rock and sand, which down the road erosion can cause it to leak back into the system. In fact, some would recommend not having sand in the tank at all until the rock is cured for this very reason.

Here are the main ways to reduce PO4:

1. Water changes (which I don't want to do while i'm cycling)

2. Use of Macroalgae/Refugium. (I don't want to put this in a cycling tank)

3. Kalkwasser will precipitate out PO4 (There isn't any demand in my tank for Calcium at this moment)

4. Polyfilters (I'm afraid that this will take out other things that my tank needs to cycle properly)

5. Using a product containing ferric oxide hydroxide (ie PhosBan) - this is the only real choice I have at this moment.

Therefore, I have a little bag of PhosBan in the back of my tank. I'll let you know how it's working.

Thanks to jer77 @ Reef Central for a lot of this info.

-James

(P.S. If it's impolite to aknowledge other saltwater/reef forums, please let me know. I'm just looking for info and want to give credit where it's do)

[R. Deschain]

That's "due" not 'do'...

[Bluemax4]

did you get a new water testing kit. becouse I head that some times fresh water testing will give bad readings.

[R. Deschain]

Good point Blue, yes, I'm using the Instant Ocean Reef Master kit.

Cycle is going well.
NH3 peaked @ 1.2ppm and today is down to .4 ppm
NO2 is rising and is now @ 1.2
Showed NO3 for the first time today @ 10 ppm

Today @ the LFS I saw a pistol shrimp/Goby team that were really fun to watch. In a few weeks, I might get them.

Question: Will the pistol shrimp be safe with, say a peppermint shrimp?

[CarmieJo]

James,

Good call on not running kalk. It will precipitate out PO4 but I think that in order to get to the supersaturated level that will cause precipitation you would set up a whole other set of problems

BTW, Regardless of your PO4 you will have an algae bloom, it is just part of a new tank.

[R. Deschain]

Here are some interesting things I've seen while staring at my live rock for way too long

I Think this is a fan worm
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I had noticed some little white specks, then realized they were moving! Copepods?
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Also, there are lots of air bubbles and green threads on my rock. Is this the dreaded Hair Algae?
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Well, back to staring at my rocks!

[CarmieJo]

Yep the green threads are probably HA. I'd leave the lights off for a while. The nutrients in the tank will feed it but leaving the lights off will help prevent photosynthesis.

[V]

your in a cycle. yea! starving the HA of light will do one of two things, cause it to die, thus polute more ( nothing major @ this point) or force it into a reproduction phaze being that it notices the squeeze. Ether way manual removal of some sorts would be the most logical solution, however, its going to get alot uglyer before it gets better. so id hold off till towards the end of cycle, then you can start your clean-up routine.

PO4, wow whats that, sounds impressive!
phosphates dart in & out of existance in every enviroment. food for some & waste of others. quite interesting when you look @ it from a building block stand point. personally, in your analogy, i would have stuck with choice 2. All you levels swing @ this time, PO4 no different, stuffs dieing, whilst others are reproducing. my test kit doesn't read very heigh in this regard, which is prob a good thing, cause we try to keep levels low as a matter of course.
To be honest, & this is my opinion. there is a 2 week buffer period that can be used after the inital cycle. I would turn my attention @ this time to clean the tank & base structures, perform some good quality water changes, fix aquascaping, top-up low areas, & use your nitrate sponges/ resins ect ect all those delightful products such as phosorb you were talking about @ that point! It may be just my opinion, but i feel your wasting money to early > believe me, plenty of time to waste you money latter..lol

interesting to see how you tube worms fare actually. Dont get to attached to em yet they could recluse never to be seen again.

[R. Deschain]

Thanks guys for all of your great advice.

I guess I just have to realize that my water is just going to be Gunky until my cycle ends. My Nitrites are alredy down to 0.2.

Should I do a 50% Water change when they hit zero?

It's funny, I've been researching this salt water thing for about a year (Notice my join date is July 2006) and I felt very confident that I knew exactly what to do, but yet when I'm actually setting up a tank, I still feel a lot of uncertainty. Having Y'all (I live in Ohio, but I grew up in Texas) to bounce things off of is amazingly helpful

BTW, Since switching to RO/DI, my 30 gal African Cichlid tank looks amazingly clear with quickly receding algae! RO/DI is great stuff