Ammonia AND Nitrite levels almost off scale.

Thadius · 05-12-2006, 04:34 AM

After listening to EP50 of the TR Podcast (Congrats Rob, and TR community btw) which had a main topic of cycling I decided to ask this question.

I've got both 3.7mg/l levels of Ammonia aswell as 2.5mg/l of Nitrite readings on my Hagen testkits (I know what Hagen can be like as far as reliability goes). I'm 3 weeks 5 days into my tank cycle, and I was under the impression that the Ammonia would spike (slowly or otherwise) then drop to 0 or close to it. Then Nitrite would increase it's levels, then do as the Ammonia content did, and equalise... TR Podcast EP50 kind of re-inforced this, saying each chemical level would spike then equalise in turn. I've got almost off the scale levels of each, which is where my question comes in. What could I be doing wrong to get high levels of both?

I believe I've got a good grasp on concepts that I should understand at a beginner level to know what I'm doing wrong with most 'setting up' things (even if I have only implemented some of the changes in the last few weeks...). I have a 90G tank at 27c, 3" of calcium carbonate substrate, 2x T8 fluros (currently on a 1hr photo period due to a diatom bloom) a canister filter with sponge-bioballs-bioballs-cotton wool-sponge (I know the CF is a Nitrate factory, and it will not be on my tank as soon as I buy/make my fuge).

I've also (about a week ago) disturbed my substrate (approx. 50% of it) by removing an UGF I realised wasn't wanted. As bad as I feel for it, I do have a 1.5" Ocellaris Clown which seems healthy in all aspects (I wish now I'd spent more time reading books that were actually helpful before buying a life I could easily end).

I think my problem lies either with the Canister Filter, especially with it's clay bio-balls. Or perhaps with the fact I've upset my substrate and somehow disrupted the cycle. My other thought was the testkit was not reading properly, but I've tested for Ammonia and Nitrite every second day since the day my tank has been wet, and Ammonia spiked like I thought it should, but just didn't drop once the Nitrite test started giving readings. I've had the same Ammonia level and an increasing Nitrite level for a good week now. If any of these aren't a/the problem, I'd love to know what is, especially for 'Nemos' sake :S

Hope this post makes some kind of sense

Cheers TR people

***Rob*** · 05-12-2006, 10:01 AM

Thadius,
first of, im sorry if i was misleading, but there really is not a rule that says each one will spike then drop BEFORE the next one spikes and drops. in short, they may all spike one by one, or all at once. or any combination in between.

establishing your cycle and reaching 0 for everythign can take many weeks.

now for your real questiosn, i think you are on the right bath ditchign the banister filter, that will contribute to those higher levels

Also i did not see a mention of LR. How much LR do you have in there?

Reefbaby · 05-12-2006, 06:01 PM

As Rob always says - Get rid of the bioballs...they're contributing to the nitrate problem. Especially since you're in your set up/ establishing a cycle phase, why not just start the whole process without them, rather than waiting until you have a refugium? If you've got LR and once your sandbed is established, they will be able to keep the good bacteria levels up.

Thadius · 05-12-2006, 06:49 PM

I'm glad what's happening isn't something broken!

I've yet to get my hands on any LR, I will probably attempt to get some before I get/make my fuge. LFS refuse to get any in due to the fact they can only source it from one guy, and he wants to charge twice the price they're prepared to pay, so it will be a long drive for me when I do have the cash to get a few kg.

I'm doing another 20% water change today, I am thinking removal of all of the bio-balls may be detrimental to the cycle? Maybe I'll just do what I've heard in the past and remove 25% of them now and another 25% in a week...

Thanks guys

Cheers

fat walrus · 05-12-2006, 08:51 PM

Thadius, i usually cycle with bioball, and then slowly remove them after the cycle is completed. i find that fitration changes usually will extend the cycle time. i have personally found in my own needs that a tank with bioballs tend to cycle faster than one without. if you already have it, there is no harm in leaving them in for the time being. that of course is just my own opinion from personal experience.

Reefbaby · 05-13-2006, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thadius
I'm doing another 20% water change today, I am thinking removal of all of the bio-balls may be detrimental to the cycle? Maybe I'll just do what I've heard in the past and remove 25% of them now and another 25% in a week...

Yes, this would be the best way to remove them. As far as leaving them in during the cycling phase, as fat walrus says, I don't have any experience with that, but if FW has had success with that, then why not?

unleashed · 05-13-2006, 08:18 PM

hi inm new to this forum and thought i would chime in .although your tank is new and still somewhat cycling .contary to what the others are stating about the bioballs your tank has not been set up long enough to worry about them harboring nitrates at this time your prolem most likely stems from not harboring enough benificial bacterias to combat the nitrates and ammonia levels at this time.I run boballs in wet/dry systems on 2 of my tanks and dont have water qulity issues. bialballs have to be maintained to keep the bacteria build up from geting out of hand but as i stated you have a while to go till you have to worry about that aprox 4 months or so . diatoms are very common in all new tanks.due to the fact your tank does have a fish or so in it . it would be best for your fish and your LR to have a 12 daylight period .fish do need sunlight also.i would and do when setting up new tanks add a product called bacter vital this is a live culture of bacterias to help boos the cycling of new tanks or boost the essential bacterias of pre existing tanks as well.these bacterias feed on nitrates and ammonias thus lowering these levels.also making the water safer for inhabitents.i hope this helps good luck.ps adding a carbon filter to your tank will also improve water quality along with changing filter media weekly.also I am not familiar with the test kits you are using i myself use salifert test kits they seam to be quite accuarate

***Rob*** · 05-14-2006, 01:26 AM

unleashed, welcome to the forums, im glad you could make it..

and yes, you do bring up some good points.
bioballs, and bio wheels to tend to take a while to establish the bacteria and start producing nitrates.

however, my personally opinion is that they are not needed or recommended in a reef tank.

im not one to say my way is the right way, i base this on reviews and the input of many others and my own experience, but if you use them successfully, i would be interested in what type of care/maintanance you perform on them to keep the bacteria in check and not over produce the nitrates. hopefully it can help others with similar systems manage them better..

Reefbaby · 05-14-2006, 03:42 PM

Welcome to TR Unleashed! Great to have you hear and for your input! Thanks!

Hope to see you around and hope you enjoy your stay. (btw...should we know what you've been "unleashed" from?) he he...

Marauder-m · 05-14-2006, 11:20 PM

I have been running a wet/dry trickle filter (with bio walls) in my tank since I got it. The tank came with the sump and filter installed and I just went with it. I do a 20% water change every 2 to 3 weeks to keep the Nitrates in check. Levels remain fairly constant at 10 to 15 ppm.
My tank also cycled very quickly. I waited 3 weeks before adding livestock, but ammonia and nitrite levels had peaked and dropped within a week. I was adding cycle bacteria during that time, which helped to populate the trickle filter with the required bacteria.
I am , however, planning to remove the trickle filter and internal sump, replacing them with a new sump/refugium, making more tank space available. I'll keep you posted in the changes I notice in maintenance requirements.

unleashed · 05-17-2006, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob

unleashed, welcome to the forums, im glad you could make it..

and yes, you do bring up some good points.
bioballs, and bio wheels to tend to take a while to establish the bacteria and start producing nitrates.

however, my personally opinion is that they are not needed or recommended in a reef tank.

im not one to say my way is the right way, i base this on reviews and the input of many others and my own experience, but if you use them successfully, i would be interested in what type of care/maintanance you perform on them to keep the bacteria in check and not over produce the nitrates. hopefully it can help others with similar systems manage them better..