End of my rope - Tank Issues all around

[mcastfalk]

I really don't know where to begin here. I've been doing this since last April and things started out fine - fish only with live rock tank, 30 gallon, penguin bio wheel filter, eventually added a protein skimmer. Read Paletta's book (own it) "The New Marine Aquarist" It really helped me.

Then about last July I had a complete die off in my tank. I had been using a quarentine tank, but the employee at That Fish Place advised me against its use saying I would stress the fish. Taking his advice, I placed unquarentined livestock in my system. After a couple weeks, I had a complete die off due to either over population in a young tank, ich or both.

I got my act together and quarentined for 30 days regularly. But now I'm having major issues again and I can't figure it out. I'm about ready to throw in the towel. Here's what's going on can someone PLEASE help me out that has experience in this?

A. Quarentine Tank. This is a 10 gallon tank I had used years ago (maybe 25?) for freshwater fish. Bare bottom, pvc pipe and plastic planters for the fish to hide. Simple air pump hooked up to a simple sponge filter for bio filtration. This is how the manuals all say to do it. I also keep the salinity low, typically 1.012.

Lately, I can't seem to keep anything alive for more than a few weeks in the tank. Even more so, it doesn't cycle completely. I clean the tank out after each use with a water and bleach solution. This includes the sponge filter, which I rinse thoroughly along with the rest of the gear. I then cycle it for 4-6 weeks using just a small bit of frozen fish food to rot in the bottom. Ammonia drops, but I can't get the nitrites to drop bellow .5. When I ask the local dealer about the cycling issues they tell me I need something living in the tank. This particular dealer only stocks the easier to keep species of fish. I had been having good success with the fish he has - so I purchase a fish. The last two fish devolped velvet and/or ich and died in the third week. Furthermore, they never helped in cycling the tank - the nitrite levels just would rise and the nitrates would stay around 10, never going above. The first fish to go was a clown, the most recent one was a 6 line wrasse. Both fish were kept during separate quarentine periods and were extremely healthy up until the 3rd week. The clown developed velvet, the wrasse seemed to get ich. Both fish died shortly after - even though I began to treat the tank with SeaCure copper treatment. After putting the seacure in, my bio filter just went through the roof. Even partial 1-2 gallon changes didn't seem to bring ammonia & nitrites down. That's $50 worth of fish in a period of about 4 months. What am I doing wrong????? How do I properly cycle the quarentine tank? Is the bio filter not big enough? Is the sponge not able to hold bacteria any more due to use in copper treated water and/or the bleaching process in breaking down the tank? I could never keep more than one fish in the tank anyhow - this always caused a die off eventually and I learnd to do one fish at a time. That's a SLOW process to stock a display tank.

Needless to say, I did buy a new 10 gal tank at walmart along with a small mechanical/bio filter from Marineland. This will be my new quarentine tank. The old one did start to leak and I was in the process of replacing it when I noticed the wrasse had ich. I'll give it another shot, but I would really like to have some hand holding from someone who has experience in keeping saltwater tanks. I'm hoping your forum can help.

B. Display tank. Has 3 fish, two pajama cardinals and one firefish. Tons of snails and hermit crabs, one arrow crab. The big thing with this tank is that I recently upgraded the light to a 96 watt 50/50 bulb. Bought a 36 inch Coralife fixture to accomodate a future tank upgrade. Coraline alagae was growing great on the rock (about 30 lbs) up until this point. I get my water from the local grocery store which has a Culligan filtration system. Ive tested it numerous times & there's no problem with the water. All my reading in the tank are fine - all zero on Ammonia, Nitrite and about 5 on the Nitrates. Regardless, I now have a tank that is being overcome with hair algae. The crabs (did have about 50 of them) don't seem to eat it, then they just die off. I added a shipment from GARF and that didn't help, made it worse - the GARF Grunge added diatoms or some kind of brownish algae in to the tank. I now have algae growing in my protein skimmer (which I empty about every 2-3 days or so). I have algae growing on everything. I scrub it off and it comes back with a vengence.

Basically, between the quarentine tank and the algae issues in my display, I'm about ready to hang it up. I've gone way over budget on all of this spending close to $2k. That's a heck of a lot of money to keep only 3 fish, crabs & snails alive in a tank. All the warnings I've had from people (most of whom NEVER had a fish tank) saying that saltwater is tremendously hard hobby seem to be coming true. The forums and the books lament the loss of hobbists and say that this really isn't as hard as it seems.

Can somebody please help me out before I become a statistic? E-mails are greatly appreciated, starting with the quarentine issues especially.

Thanks.

Michael

[PreauxPhoto]

I feel you pain Michael I've been there. first off dont throw in the towel yet you've ome to the right place there are many people here that can and will help. starting with me.

A. it seems to me that everything you put in your QT seem to come down with the same problem.

Ich is most often brought into the tank on new fish or plants (not if they are quarantined!). However, it is also believed that some survivors of an Ich infection can become latent carriers, with the parasites forming a latent stage at protected sites such as the base of fins or the gills. it usually takes about 3 weeks from initinal contraction for it's free floating stage for you to be able to see it on your fish.

i would guess that it might be coming from you LFS this will usually apply if you keep buying fish from the same place. try going to a new store and see what happens. do you see ich in the store on other fish? most stores have one large filtration system for all the tanks so if one fish is sick they all can get sick.

B. I'm battling hair algae also as alot of us are. first thing is keep pulling it out of the tank keeping as little of it from floating around as possible. next try to remove as much phosphate as you can for your tank by either getting a phosphate removal system such as a phosban 150 or a phosphate removing filter pad these are usually cheaper and can be found a LFS they are an aqua/green color. then shorten you photo period. hair algae id photosynthetic shorten you photoperiod and it will greatly inhibit it's ability to thrive. my tanks light are on for about 8 hours a day while I'm trying to get rid of it.

well I'm don't ranting you'll get alot more advice here and i hope we can help you through this to keep the hobby alive with at least one more person.

[Amphibious]

Hey Michael, Welcome to TR and to the saltwater hobby. It seems you have been bitten, got your feet wet, experienced tragedy, got discouraged and need help. All that seems normal to me. Just kidding. OK, first bit of good news, you've come to the right place. TR has a growing number of knowledgeable reefers willing to share experiences and lend a hand. And, Rob keeps us under a watchful eye to be sure our advice is appropriate.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's sad but oh so true, "The worst place to get advice on saltwater aquariums, be it FOWLR or a reef system, is your local fish store (LFS)". That seems to fly in the face of reason but after 60+ years in the hobby, thats my opinion and it's echoed through the ranks of reefers around the forums. So let's see if we can get you back on track.

First, it's always a good practice to quarantine, keep up that good habit. Your 10 gallon QT is a bit small but workable as long as you understand it's limits. The quarantine tank doesn't need to be elaborate but it does have to meet certain criteria. It needs some kind of biological filter. Some people would say a sponge filter is adequate. Not in my opinion unless it is large and properly seeded. The QT should not be set up new to house a fish, it should be aged. It's purpose is to allow the fish (or whatever) to relax, adjust to captivity, allow diseases to manifest their presence, allowing you to treat them, allow the fish to adapt to foreign food and gain strength, all in a peaceful environment.

My personal experience taught me to use water from the display tank to fill the QT. That is assuming your display tank water is of optimum condition. Have a small amount of sand covering the bottom of the QT. Use a biological filter that is seeded with bacteria. Employ a UV Sterilizer. I like to use a couple of pieces of carved out coral rock for hiding places instead of PVC. (My preference) I have not used copper in 40 years. It is a killer, unpredictable and too easy to overdose. My choice is to keep a Vortex DE filter on the QT for the first two weeks. They can be a pain in the butt to use but, are worth every penny of their cost if used properly. Fish in QT should be fed anything you can get them to eat. Don't spare the cost here. If they will only take live food, provide it in abundance and try dry or frozen at alternate feedings times. Monitor the QT water conditions at least every other day. Change water, if needed to maintain optimum conditions, from the display tank. Keep new water on hand to replace the display tank water. By using this system you can maintain the proper salinity 1.026 and accomplish the goal of QTing, which is to bring your fish back to health from the rigors of capture, holding, transport, holding again, transporting again, holding again and finally transporting to your LFS. Realize, during all this time in transit to your LFS they are not fed!!! Or fed very sparingly.

I hope this helped you with the QT part of your questions. I'll give others a chance to get in on the discussion. I have more to say but need to get something done first.

Dick

[Astrivian]

Welcome to TR Michael! i have some words of encouragement for you regarding your problems. I started in this hobby about a year ago after two complete failures. To demonstrate you are not alone, let me explain:

Failure #1: No reading, research, or advise except from my LFS, which was a large national chain Pet something (*ahem*) who seemed more interested in selling me stuff than ensuring my success. They too said i needed a living animal in the tank to cycle it. So i added some water and salt, then a damsel, then more salt. Yea, i mixed the salt in the tank with the fish What can i say, we all start somewhere.

Failure #2: Tried to make my own custom tank. Very bad idea.

But, then i came onto Talkingreef. I listened to Rob's podcasts at least 5 times each, read through the threads, and started reading books. Now, i have a 100 gallon tank almost set up and finished. You have come to the right place my friend.

So, advice regarding your issues.

Cycling

My first thing to say is to not cycle a tank with a fish, or any other animal, in it. Personally i think it is cruel; like stuffing a person into a room with toxic air and hoping their lungs will filter out the bad stuff. Not only that, but that fish will be so stressed it will likely die. The simplest way i have found:

1) Mix up your water and such.
2) Get a cup of water, sand, or a piece or two of live rock from another hobbiest and add it to the water.
3) Use Rob's table shrimp method. Add a whole uncooked shrimp (i.e. human food shrimp) to the tank and let it rot.

Fish stress

A huge mistake i made in the beginning was impatience. When you get a new critter, think in weeks, not days. I used the "bag floating" method of acclimation the first few times. I just floated the plastic bag in the tank water, added some water here and there, then dumped the fish in. I lost every fish i have ever acclimated in this way. My suggestion is to try the drip acclimation. Grab some cheap airline tubing and create a slow siphon of about a drip per second. Add the fish to a clean bowl (or something ridged and larger than the bag) and let the water from your QT fill the bowl. After several hours, like 2 or 3, net the fish and quickly add it to the QT. Do not add the water from the store into your tank! I have introduced all sorts of diseases by doing so!

When in the QT, give the fishie time. I am still haunted by the ghosts of the damsels, angles, and dottybacks i have killed with my impatience I would get all excited and add the fish to the display in a few days, where it was chased, harassed, stressed, then eventually killed by the other inhabitants. Most of them would have been fine if i had left it some time to chill out first. Try leaving it in the QT for 2 to 3 weeks or longer, at least until it starts swimming and eating normally.

One last note: I don't trust bleach. It takes so much rinsing to clean the residue off of the equipment. If you have a wine and bear making store in your area grab some no-rinse sterilizer that uses oxygen. Take a look here. this stuff uses ozone to kill bacteria and such and leaves no harmful residues.

[reefer_stc]

Have you tested the water you are using for water changes for phosphates? The reason you have a lot of algae growth is because of excess nutrients. If you don't mind that it's not so "pretty", I'd recommend letting the back wall of your tank grow freely with algae, and just giving it a good trim every now and then. This should act as a good export of nitrates, phosphates, and nutrients. I believe there is an actual name for this method, but I can't remember it as of right now. What kind of snails and hermits do you have? Your hermits may be carnivorous, and thats why they are not consuming the algae. Also, having too many snails and hermits may throw off your water quality as well, especially in a smaller tank- it's just more your biofilter has to take care of. How much LR and LS do you have?

[Seahorsedreams]

One thing you'll find out is that we all have different opinions on everything! Here's a little QT article from out "spin-off" site, if you will. ReefReaders

I had 3 uncycled tanks going for a year... all with seahorses in them. Last week I finally placed the last 2 horses in their display. I use the sponge method and the rest of the stuff is "artifical". A tank with any sort of biofilter should not be a hospital tank... which it becomes when you add any medications in there. Ya, after copper you will need to seed a new sponge. I always toss mine after I finish a QT... they are cheap. And I pull it out if I need to medicate. Frequent water changes are a must and products like Amquel+ and Ultimate are heaven sent. The common denominator in all nuisance algae problems is nutrients/organics. There are all sorts of contributing factors but without the nutrients the algae will not grow. And once it is established it is definately difficult to get rid of.

What is your pH and alkalinity in the tank with the hair algae? I'm sure there are nitrates in there with all the hermit deaths... probably only minimally detectable because the hair algae is consuming it. And inverts don't particularily care for such a low salinity.

I use bleach with everything... but I also use a use a de-chlorinator and let that sit awhile before rinsing.

As you can see we really do have many different ideas on how we do stuff. And it is perfectly fine to pick out different pieces of peeps advice to follow.... just make sure the different pieces fit together. Sometimes it is better to stick with one person's method if it is doable for you. Or at least when you have a game plan after reading everyone's advise, bring it to us to see if there is any problems with it.

[CarmieJo]

Hi Michael & reefer_stc, to TR.

Michael,


Don't give up. You've found a great community and we can help you work through this.

As you can see, we have different opinions concerning methods of performing QT but not on the necessity of QT.

I think that your cycling questions pertain to your QT tank, not your display. I don't try to cycle my QT tank. I keep a sponge filter in my display tank's sump so it is already biologically active and use water from my display to fill my