The 12 week cycle

[gwen_o_lyn]

I just wanted to start a thread that I can easily link in other threads when necessary.

This is why I believe everyone should wait at least 12 weeks before stocking a tank (algae eating clean-up critters are an exception.)

Here is WHY:

1) You are playing God to fragile critters that were taken from the ocean. Their care and well being is your #1 priority. You are creating a mini ocean environment and you need similar water quality and certainly stability. How long has the ocean been around? How long has your tank been setup? Shouldn't you wait a little longer???

2) Throw the test kits out the window. Here is a quote that I believe in,

"Patience and observation, rather than daily use of a water test kit, is a better approach to any new marine aquarium setup." (Nilsen, Fossa, p. 29-30)

Sure go ahead and WATCH the cycle and learn how to use your test kits- no harm done there, BUT once again, your tank is not ready even if you SAW a cycle within 2 weeks. The simple reason is because water quality changes over time and will continue to change as your tank ages. Another quote:

"As the time goes by in a new saltwater aquarium, the water conditions become safer and steadier. The populations of various decomposing bacteria that are vital for the balance of the system have built up and stabilized, normally after about 12 weeks." (Nilsen, Fossa p. 30)

3) This is more geared for n00bs, but every new tank has a "getting to know you time frame." It takes more than 12 weeks to learn how to operate your tank. Can you maintain the same pH, alk, salinity, temperature, calcium, nitrate, nitrite, etc, etc readings ?? Do you know how to filter a tank? Have you decided how to skim and do you even have a good skimmer? What are your reasons for having a DSB, BB, or SSB? *because Rob said so is not the right answer!! Are you using bioballs and why? Are you running carbon and why? Is your backup pump ready for emergencies? Will your heater cook your tank? Do you know how to read your test kits and make the necessary adjustments? Is your RODI unit setup? Please add to my list. My point is, you shouldn't even be thinking about fish and corals just yet.

It personally took me 4 weeks to get the temp stable in my recently setup nano and I've been in the hobby a few years. 150w metal halide and 12 gallon tank- NOT EASY!

4) Are you in this hobby for the right reasons? There are those who really don't care about the critters and setup a tank to have something nice to look out and well, that's just too bad. The good thing is, those people don't stick around too long. The true reefers enjoy the blood, sweat, and tears it takes to keep a tank and we are nicely rewarded with a gorgeous tank: patience repaid.

I firmly believe EVERY newly setup tank NEEDS a 12 week cycle.
There are my beliefs and I challenge you to cycle for no less than 12 weeks.

I understand all the excuses: the test kits said my tank was ready, the LFS said my tank was ready, my tank looks ready...... From this point forward, you read the post: NO EXCUSES

And just as a note- 12 weeks is a minimum- certainly using uncured LR or other factors will/may require a longer wait.

[veriann]

gwen, im not 100% sure whats THE right & only way to set up a tank these days. I do know there are roads that lead to headaches and there are roads that lead to enjoyment. in this hobby its garanteed at some point that both these roads will cross paths even if you know what your doing, or what your systems doing. observations and experience show that you can take a larger piece of established reef, transplant it into a younger system and it matures quicker than starting fresh via seeding with a cup of established sand. im never going to say your wrong, i totally respect your option, you air on the side of caution, which is great, and your healthy tanks are your testamont to the fact that your doing it right . as for stability in three weeks instead of 12 weeks. we are always going to be the observers here, nature shows us through our own inventions to test nature. its a cause & effect hobby!

their are 3 stages to learning in this hobby,
1) we have principles to grasp & make sence of,
2) we then try to apply these principles to build our creations,
3) and somewhere,,, and at some point in the near distant future we really start to understand the how and the why and thats where the clarity sets in, starting the natral progression towards a never ending thurst for information.

My belief: There is a saying that i saw at a skydive launch pad. "Learn from others mistakes, because u wont get the chance to make them yourselves"

This isn't as extreme as skydiving, but the principles sound!
s should make a real effort to track down a tank buddy to learn off before they even think of getting a system of their own , watch and do the maintenance, learn the equiptment needed, the needs of the animals they keep.
In the meantime they can see what works, buy right equiptment along the way, and learn some of the pit falls that can be avoided, but above all, really start to understand the why & how

[Amphibious]

One of the wonderful things the Internet has given us is the ability to communicate with each other to disseminate new ideas, methodologies and vital information. We can have differing opinions based on our readings, education and experience all with out malice. The recipient of said information can make there own decision as to which path they wish to follow. Actually, they will take bits and pieces of information from various sources and put together their "Little Piece of the Ocean" and begin the journey we all have taken in the beginning. They will, hopefully, learn as they go along just as we did and become successful reef keepers.

I have a great deal of respect for Gwen. She is an important contributer and an asset to the Talking Reef Community. I feel her post is in direct response to my method mentioned in different threads. We happen to disagree on the waiting period for the "Cycle" to complete and the addition of critters.

Gwen, none of my response is to be taken personally. I'm simply replying to a thread you started, stating our differences and why. The folks can decide for themselves. Education is the purpose here.

For clarification of what gives me the right to make such statements that follow, a synopsis of my bio. I began in the hobby in 1946, 60 years ago, I was heavy into freshwater until I went into saltwater in 1966, went completely out of freshwater and into saltwater exclusively in 1972. From 1972 to date I have been in retail, installation/maintenance, wholesale, and now Internet sales. I set up my first "Reef" tank with LR, LS, sump/refugium, UV Sterilizer, Skimmer with Ozone generator in 1988. Over the years I have installed 100's of marine aquariums and sold thousands both wholesale and retail. When doing installations I offered a 30 day guarantee on all livestock. To say I know it all would be very wrong. To say I know a system that works would be quite accurate.

Gwen's way works to be sure but to say it is what everyone should follow is irresponsible, in my humble opinion.

1) You are playing God to fragile critters that were taken from the ocean. Their care and well being is your #1 priority.

I agree totally!

How long has the ocean been around? How long has your tank been setup? Shouldn't you wait a little longer???

It's true, the oceans are as old as time itself. However, what we are waiting for is a "cycle" to begin and stabilize our tank environment. It's true, this takes time. In the '60s,'70s and '80s, we had to wait about 12 weeks for the "cycle" to complete. Some times longer. With the advent of the use of LR and LS the "cycling" time was shortened considerably. Now, set up properly, following established protocol, a "cycle" can happen in a much shorter time frame. My 135 "cycled" in two weeks. That means the population of nitrifying bacteria present in the LR and LS is sufficient to convert the available nutrients. If we don't add critters for ten weeks the population of nitrifying bacteria will die back because of the lack of food. Then when you add critters you may very well have another "cycle" because the nitrifying bacteria population may be too low to convert the available nutrients from the newly added critters. A dangerous position to put yourself into.

2) Throw the test kits out the window. Here is a quote that I believe in,

"Patience and observation, rather than daily use of a water test kit, is a better approach to any new marine aquarium setup." (Nilsen, Fossa, p. 29-30)

I'm familiar with and respect Nilsen and Fossa for the most part. However, I totally disagree with them on this one and here's why.

Saltwater, for the most part, is crystal clear. Ammonia, and the Nitrogen compounds we are trying to eliminate or reduce in our aquariums is not visible to the naked eye. That is why we must use test kits designed to bring their levels in our aquariums to light. For the above quoted authors to make that statement and for you to advocate boggles my mind. While staring daily at a tank full of LR and LS what is it you are expecting to see??? You cannot "see" the cycle except with test kits.

Sure go ahead and WATCH the cycle and learn how to use your test kits- no harm done there, BUT once again, your tank is not ready even if you SAW a cycle within 2 weeks.

This was addressed above. I'll just reiterate, if you don't feed the bacteria they will die back. This could lead to a mini-cycle and potential problems when you do add fish 10 weeks down the road. And, your doing more than learning how to use your test kits. You will witness the cycle event. It's very important in your learning curve to "see" a cycle as it happens.

The simple reason is because water quality changes over time and will continue to change as your tank ages.

I agree but, perhaps with a different understanding. In the beginning of a new tank the water, for all practical purposes, is essentially sterile. At the completion of the cycle, in whatever time frame you subscribe too, the water is at it's best. Over time the water does change, it degrades. That's why we use skimmers, UV sterilizers, refugiums, carbon, etc, and advocate regular water changes, all just to try and keep the water quality up to par.

Another quote:

"As the time goes by in a new saltwater aquarium, the water conditions become safer and steadier. The populations of various decomposing bacteria that are vital for the balance of the system have built up and stabilized, normally after about 12 weeks." (Nilsen, Fossa p. 30)

This is addressed above except for one important statement, "normally after about 12 weeks." It is my belief that the authors are not advocating waiting 12 weeks to add critters but, to add them cautiously over that time testing as you go along. I don't have their book so I can't be sure about this statement. But, this is my gut feeling.

Number 3) & 4), I agree that people need to learn their systems, and the use of equipment and test kits, etc. Too, many times people jump into a saltwater tank without proper education.

I firmly believe EVERY newly setup tank NEEDS a 12 week cycle.
There are my beliefs and I challenge you to cycle for no less than 12 weeks.

This is obviously where Gwen and I differ the most. No problem on my part, Gwen, you can and will continue to put this method to practice. It works for you. Testing, witnessing the cycle and proceeding with caution works for me. I can accept our differences. But, the folks will decide which method they wish to follow. Both work!

I understand all the excuses: the test kits said my tank was ready, the LFS said my tank was ready, my tank looks ready...... From this point forward, you read the post: NO EXCUSES

I've said it before (not in this post) and I'll say it again, the worst place to get advice for setting up your reef tank is your LFS!!! It's sad but true. My guess is about 90% of LFS give out bad advice. So, newbies, join Talking Reef Community or another if you prefer (I don't know why you'd to join any other forum, you've found the best). Ask questions and listen to people like Gwen, Rob and many others, too. You could even try my method. :grin:

Gwen, thank you for starting this thread and allowing me to communicate my thoughts. You've been a wonderful new friend and I love you.

[gwen_o_lyn]

Originally Posted by veriann

gwen, im not 100% sure whats THE right & only way to set up a tank these days.

What is your opinion of the right way?

Originally Posted by veriann

I do know there are roads that lead to headaches and there are roads that lead to enjoyment. in this hobby its garanteed at some point that both these roads will cross paths even if you know what your doing, or what your systems doing.

I agree with this to a point. Eric Borneman is a perfect example of doing everything right and still something out of his control happened. Hurricanes happen, diseases aren't going away, bleaching is occuring. However, it can be easily stated that those with patience are those with more roads of success. Why hurry up for disaster to happen now- you are only asking for the road of headaches. We all know "nothing good happens fast in a reef tank."

Originally Posted by veriann

observations and experience show that you can take a larger piece of established reef, transplant it into a younger system and it matures quicker than starting fresh via seeding with a cup of established sand.

Moving/transfering a currently established system into another tank is not an example of setting up a brand new tank in a matter of a few days or weeks. I am speaking of tanks where everything is new.

Originally Posted by veriann

im never going to say your wrong, i totally respect your option, you air on the side of caution, which is great, and your healthy tanks are your testamont to the fact that your doing it right .

How could you not be cautious when you are pulling fragile resources out of the oceans? Give it time and there will be strict regulations and only certain people will be allowed to have reef tanks. Only a matter of time. In many ways, I want that to happen especially on the LFS end, but it can be very bad at the same time and many people will suffer. People need to take their own responsibility now so we don't have to deal with regulations later. Properly cycling a tank is one way we can harvest less out of the oceans.

Originally Posted by veriann

as for stability in three weeks instead of 12 weeks. we are always going to be the observers here, nature shows us through our own inventions to test nature. its a cause & effect hobby!

Lets leave the testing up to the researchers. We can't afford for every person to try setting up a tank in a few days just to see what happens. Observe as much as you can, absorb all the knowledge you can, and do this to the best of your abilities- that is my challenge. When people say, "I think my tank is ready" ... you aren't ready... what does it hurt to wait longer? Are you really passionate about the hobby or are you here for the look of the tank?

Originally Posted by veriann

their are 3 stages to learning in this hobby,
1) we have principles to grasp & make sence of,
2) we then try to apply these principles to build our creations,
3) and somewhere,,, and at some point in the near distant future we really start to understand the how and the why and thats where the clarity sets in, starting the natral progression towards a never ending thurst for information.

My belief: There is a saying that i saw at a skydive launch pad. "Learn from others mistakes, because u wont get the chance to make them yourselves"

This isn't as extreme as skydiving, but the principles sound!
s should make a real effort to track down a tank buddy to learn off before they even think of getting a system of their own , watch and do the maintenance, learn the equiptment needed, the needs of the animals they keep.
In the meantime they can see what works, buy right equiptment along the way, and learn some of the pit falls that can be avoided, but above all, really start to understand the why & how

I agree
The reef hobby is extremely important and the knowledge we are learning every day helps us learn how to keep the reefs in the ocean that much longer. Our hobby both saves and destroys the reefs. Lets try and do our part to help the reefs stay around for many years.

Thanks for your opinions. I'm not getting fiesty or anything- I'm just too passionate *if there is such a thing.*

[gwen_o_lyn]

Originally Posted by Amphibious

I feel her post is in direct response to my method mentioned in different threads. We happen to disagree on the waiting period for the "Cycle" to complete and the addition of critters.

Yeah somewhat and I wanted this here to link to other threads for those people who need help understanding the importance of patience.
My lunch is over and I will have to respond at another time.

[CarmieJo]

I'll pitch in my 2 cents worth and say I fall somewhere in the middle. We do have a ethical obligation to give the creatures in our care a stable, healthy environment. This hobby is expensive and personally I want to optimize my fish budget. I do believe that impatience is the number one enemy for many people in this hobby. On the other hand there are people like Dick who have been keeping salts for decades and have the EXPERIENCE (and tank size) to push things. He knows more than I ever will. The guy that really worries me is the one who says "I just got my first nano and it cycled in 1.65 hours using the latest wonder product that I bought at the pet store in the mall. I went back that afternoon and bought a Dory and a Nemo and an anemone. Doesn't my tank look beautiful?"

I am new to reefs but have had a lot of fresh and old school saltwater FO experience. I read for a couple of months before I bought anything. Then I found a bargain on a used set-up and bought it. I waited until I found a guy who was tearing down his tank and bought all of my LS & LR from him. Since it was from an established tank I never saw a cycle. I added hermits and snails after 3 weeks with no change in parameters. I waited 2 more weeks and added my first fish. Now, 16 weeks into my tank, I have a clean up crew, 2 chromis, a maroon clown, a fire fish, and a six line wrasse. This was a comfortable pace for me.

I believe in testing and in observation. If all my parameters are dead on and my critters don't look/act right I am going to dig to find out what is wrong. This is another reason that I want to research what is normal before I buy. If my critters look great but my params are off I am going to correct them. [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/All/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG]

[veriann]

just a quick responce of my opinion to setting up a tank gwen, i sit down & sketch a detailed plan, arm myself to the teeth with information that over time i may have forgotten, and information on how to build components so i can spend my money on more important items.
once or twice a week at the max for testing since im familiar with the cycle proccess. buy the highest grade products i can afford and stick to a strict stocking chart. of yeah, & i quarintine everything.........no exceptions!!!

superman quick rundown

[cheng21tang]

this post seems very opinionated. i agree with various points from various posters. but it's a subject we best stay un-bias about. None of us are researchers, or scientist, or published like the delbeek, sprung, borneman, tullock, etc, etc. and even then. you know what i've noticed from all researchers, scientist, and reef-lovers alike.

they all have their opinions based off their experience.

and if i cycled a tank in 1 week and did it successfully over and over and over again over 100 times. why would i want to change that? (saying that everything went perfectly to plan) instead of being bias on our experiences and knowledge. let's set up a good foundation for a BEGINNERS cycle period. because we have our ways. but BEGINNERS don't have their own way. and their way will be the wrong way if not guided by others.

now they come to TR to learn and we have a difference in opinion on cycling. that's perfectly fine. but i want the BEGINNERS like i once was to know a steady proven cycle (safest) for them to follow. and i believe we can all agree on that.

i'll leave it up the to experts like gwen or dick or whoever wants to take a shot at it to post a CYCLING FOR BEGINNERS the safe and easy way. however long it takes, be it 8 weeks or 8 months. whichever you think a new hobbyist with the eagerness to follow our kind advice can handle. so we don't have to lose any specimen of corals from the world. or a beautiful fish.

but then again i speak my words from my bias opinioin. my opinion is to try not to be opinionated in a hobby that will be forever changing. i mean back in the 80's undergravel filters were the way. but now we know it's impossible to have a stable system with UGF. but again some people will try and accomplish it. but we as a community will tell others to stray away from such techniques.

trying to make a point but not be hated for it. this hobby will continue to change. and with the way technology is and the ease of knowledge at your finger tips. we will be learning and discovering new things at such a fast pace. we are bound to find faster ways to cycle. and better ways to feed. and better lighting solutions. etc,etc.

or... we might learn from all the technology and knowledge that... we just have to let nature do it's thing, even in our aquariums and just enjoy our hobby together.

[dreams]

i am going to take up for the ""....whether one is talking about substrates, cycling times, stocking lists, lighting or whatever, a only has the information given to them (which is usually the local LFS)

what it took for me to get to the internet was disaster....not because i didn't care about the critters that i had purchased (the tears that have been shed could fill an ocean), but because i didn't know....i was listening to a shop that has been here forever...

at this point, i have spent hour upon hour reading, reading, reading....and what have i come up with?....everyone has their own way of dong things and no one way is going to guarentee you success....are there basic guidelines to be followed, sure there are, but no two tanks are the same and each should be treated as such

the best we can do as s is read as much as possible, evaluate the sources, and form a sound game plan.....when in doubt, ask....and ask again, if needed