Wow dave, thanks for all that. I will have to try some cyclopesez next; i am having a hell of a time getting my fry off live food.
Some pictures of my deal now.
This is a shot of the male and female in profile. You can see the notations Dave was making about the jawline of the male. Notice also how the females' body is more oval, while the male's is more squared off along the top and bottom.
Personally, i don't find the dorsal fin method to be very accurate in terms of sexing. I have often stared at my pair trying to see a difference in their fins without any luck.
Here is a wider shot of the pair with their clown buddies. The male's behavior is typical around this time, hiding in a cave. When i feed the tank, i have seen him dart out thinking he will eat. When he gets near the food, he seems to remember he is carrying eggs and darts back into hiding. Silly fish.
This next picture is the male holding eggs. I circled where his jaw is puffed out from holding the eggs. Look for this, it is a telltale sign he is packing.
And, lastly this is the setup i made for the pair. I sectioned off a side of the tank with eggcrate so i can, hopefully, isolate the fry when they hatch out and are released. I actually intend on raising the fry in this side of the tank, at least until i can build a better set up. I have the 10 gallon hex but it is not hooked up to the main system, which makes me a slave to water changes and constant monitoring of temperature, water quality, etc. Personally, i have been slacking majorly in this and already lost one fry.
I cant really use the refugium for fry raising as it is not in a convenient spot. What i need to do is build a table i can set this stuff on!
The "door" under the eggcrate (the big white thing) is a small section i cut away and then superglued back on at an angle (i.e. " \ " ), like a swinging pet door. It is probably pointless, but the theory is that it allows hermit crabs and snails to get through while keeping the fish back. Again, it is probably pointless
__________________ Samuel
"If they but knew it, almost all men in their degree, some time or other, cherish very nearly the same feelings towards the ocean with me.... There is magic in it. Let the most absent-minded men be plunged in his deepest reveries--stand that man on his legs, set his feet a-going, and he will infallibly lead you to water, if water there be in all that region."
On a different note, i have a question for you Dave. How do you ween the fry off of live food and about how long does it take? I can't seem to get my fry to eat anything at all.
__________________ Samuel
"If they but knew it, almost all men in their degree, some time or other, cherish very nearly the same feelings towards the ocean with me.... There is magic in it. Let the most absent-minded men be plunged in his deepest reveries--stand that man on his legs, set his feet a-going, and he will infallibly lead you to water, if water there be in all that region."
Are the babies really going to be confined by egg crate? I found that they pay no attention to it I had to wrap the crate with a mesh, small enough that they could not get through, otherwise, they come and go through the the diffuser at will.
In your case, since you are actually sectioning off some of the tank, get a Penplax divider.
It can be cut to fit, and will not let anything but the water flow through...well...and baby brine shrimp and such. This is what I use in my growout tanks.
I continued to feed newly hatched baby brine shrimp. Then, I began to introduce thawed frozen cyclopeeze when feeding the brine shrimp. I use airlines in my tanks and it keeps everything flowing in the water column. Just by sheer chance, they start to take in the cylcopeeze. It's the same size and probably close in texture (if they even chew). Again, most of the time, these babies "hit and run" feeding while darting through the water column. They would, just by mistake, begin to take in the cyclops. Thereafter, I would reduce the amount of baby brine I put in, and increase the cyclops. They continued to feed on both. Eventually, you reduce the baby brine to just dropper and then...no more. You will know when, because you'll see them accepting the cyclops.
After they take the cyclops, you want to take frozen mysid and using a knife, shave the mysid off of the frozen block. This creates smallish shards of the food, closely matching the size of the BBS and cyclops. Mix some of this shaven food in with the cyclops..and follow the same routine above. Eventually, you will get them eating both.
As the fish mature, you can increase the size of the food particles. Just about when they are the size that you typically see in the LFS (sub adult - juvis), they should be taking smallish (maybe hikari brand) whole mysid and/or frozen, whole, enriched, adult brine. From there, I noticed that they like that "prime reef" stuff, broken into decent sizes (this stuff stanks like fish). Afterwards, they should take just about anything. Banggai's aren't very finiky.
Very cool, thanks for the tip Dave. I am going to start reprogramming my fry starting today. I have some frozen cyclopes so i will use your dual-dosing method with enriched napulii. I will have to buy some more frozen mysis for the second step.
To answer your other question, yes the bangaii fry will swim right through the eggcrate i am sure. I am going to wrap fiberglass window screen around it this weekend. The crate is mostly to keep the adults to one side.
Oh, and i dig your point about the fake urchin. Actually i am going to make a "fry trap" using some green plastic garden screen to keep their parents from eating them when they hatch (around Feb 5). After that, this couple will have to be broken up for a week or so! The poor guy needs a rest. I know how he feels
__________________ Samuel
"If they but knew it, almost all men in their degree, some time or other, cherish very nearly the same feelings towards the ocean with me.... There is magic in it. Let the most absent-minded men be plunged in his deepest reveries--stand that man on his legs, set his feet a-going, and he will infallibly lead you to water, if water there be in all that region."
Exactly Dave. This is why i was so excited my pair started breeding. Also, i think it is only a short time until wild-caught ones are flat banned. That should cause the prices to skyrocket. I heard they used to sell for $150 in the U.S. before they became really popular. I doubt they will go that high again, since they are so easy to tank breed, but the price should go beyond $5 for the juvies.
__________________ Samuel
"If they but knew it, almost all men in their degree, some time or other, cherish very nearly the same feelings towards the ocean with me.... There is magic in it. Let the most absent-minded men be plunged in his deepest reveries--stand that man on his legs, set his feet a-going, and he will infallibly lead you to water, if water there be in all that region."
Tropical Isle, a store in Framinham, MA, sells tank raised for at LEAST $25.00 each. Just remember, if you are really into this, and continue to breed, you NEED to get additional breeding stock. Banggai Cardinals are what we call an "endemic species". They are ONLY found in one specific location, again, in the lagoons of the Banggai Islands. They already sit behind the "curve" as far as possible gene swapping. Try to shake it up some with other lineage...k?
Oh yes, i know. Genetic diversification would probabably be the only reason i would go with a wild-caught Bangaii.
As a note, I found some information from CITES regarding the future trade of these fish. This report from 2007 (PDF document), gives their current decision regarding the trade of wild-caught specimens. In summary:
The representatives from the United States proposed that the Bangaii Cardinal fish (Pterapogon kauderni) be listed under Article II, paragraph 2(a), which reads as follows:
Quote:
" 2. Appendix II shall include:
(a) all species which although not necessarily now threatened with extinction may become so unless trade in specimens of such species is subject to strict regulation in order to avoid utilization incompatible with their survival; and ..."
Quote:
The Government of Indonesia was consulted on this proposal, and while declining to co-sponsor, did not express opposition to submission of this proposal by the United States.
Their overview of the situation says that 700,000 to 900,000 fish are harvested for the aquarium trade every year from an total population area measuring 5,000 km^2. Fish densities in areas not allowing harvest of the cardinals, such as Bangaii island, are close to .63 individuals per square meter. Conversely, areas under pressure from harvesting have densities between .03 and .07 individuals per square meter (44% reduction).
It is proposed that wild-collection is banned and captive breeding be offered as an alternative. From the text:
Quote:
Captive breeding of Pterapogon kauderni is a viable alternative to wild harvest of the species;
this fish can be reared in captivity through its entire life cycle, and numerous commercial
operations exist. In 1997, the New Jersey Academy for Aquatic Sciences began a captivebreeding program, and all aspects of the reproductive biology of this species have been
described (Vagelli, 1999). Using cage grow-out systems, facilities can raise marketable-sized
fish within 100–130 days; survival rates from the time of release of juveniles to market size
ranged from 66 to 95% (Marini, 1998; Vagelli, 2004b; Hopkins et al., 2005).
The final decision was not to ban them. Although they did propose to limit their collection from the wild. After this proposal, the U.S. withdrew its assertion to include the fish under Article II, thereby allowing its continued wild collection, albeit much more regulated than before.
Some resources given:
Hopkins, S., H Ako and C.S. Tamaru. 2005. Mannual for the production of the Banggai Cardinalfish, Pterapogon kauderni, in Hawaii. Rain Garden Ornamentals, College of Tropical Agriculture and Human resources, and University of Hawai’I Sea grant College Program. 28 pp.
Vagelli, A. A. 2004b. Significant increase in survival of captive-bred juvenile Banggai cardinalfish,
Pterapogon kauderni, with an essential fatty acid enriched diet. J. World Aquaculture Soc.
35 (1): 61–69.
__________________ Samuel
"If they but knew it, almost all men in their degree, some time or other, cherish very nearly the same feelings towards the ocean with me.... There is magic in it. Let the most absent-minded men be plunged in his deepest reveries--stand that man on his legs, set his feet a-going, and he will infallibly lead you to water, if water there be in all that region."
Great thread you guys got going, Thanks to you both. I was looking for inspiration as to what fish to add to my aquaculture adventure and the Bangaii is the natural choice. Years ago when Bangaiis were quite expensive I had a breeding pair and raised several broods. At that time I sold the juvies to LFS for $20 each. Nice little money maker. I think you could still get $10 on a wholesale level. That's pretty good, having a machine that cranks out $10 bills.
Thanks again, guys.
Dick
__________________ Amphibious
Reaching my 70th BD, I realize that I cannot help but grow old. However, I refuse to grow up!!! My wife would tell you, "He may be 70 but, He's going on 17". Life is wonderful with a woman like that.
Samuel - great thread! I can't wait to see your pictures! (by the way, I'm in CO again next month...would love to visit...)
Christi, just a reminder, there is a WARM spot here in FL for you, too.
Dick
__________________ Amphibious
Reaching my 70th BD, I realize that I cannot help but grow old. However, I refuse to grow up!!! My wife would tell you, "He may be 70 but, He's going on 17". Life is wonderful with a woman like that.
ummm..that sound nice right about now! We've had major storms that past few days. I can barely walk upright when taking my dog for a walk! I'll make it out to see you at some point Dick!!
David and Samuel - excellent thread, with wonderful information. It's inspiring me to think about how to set up a little brood tank.....once I get my refugium, frag tank, and QT tank set up! HELP! I need another fish room!
