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Old 01-16-2007, 05:24 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Bio-media and nitrates (Trickle and wet/dry filters)

I have a typical wet/dry sump/filter unit on my tank. The common advice is to remove the bio-media if there is enough live rock in the tank because the media will add to the nitrate levels.
This makes no sense to me. I understand the nitrogen cycle, and that nitrosomonas turns ammonia to nitrite, nitrobacter turns nitrite to nitrate. But just having some surface area with these two types of bacteria on them elevating nirtate levels puzzes me. There is no less live rock for denitrification to occur in.
If I remove the media, my fancy filter will in essense just be a place for the skimmer to stand. What is the point of a sump (not getting into refugiums here) with no boilogical or mechanical filtration?
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Old 01-16-2007, 05:39 PM   #2 (permalink)
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im not that expert..but i think isnt it that the bio balls are good at changing the ammonia and nitrite to nitrate, but then it just stops there and doesnt go any further?...then that will leave nitrates in the tank which promote algae and algae battles with the corals and kills them off? i believe thats the reason. and the live rock i guess gets rid of nitrates i would guess?..but i dont know how correct i am, just thought i would see if i have the right info
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Old 01-16-2007, 07:06 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Everything you say is accurate, but maybe I didn't form my question clearly...

How does having bio-media raise nitrates? If there is no media, the Nitrosomas and Nitrobacter have to exist somewhere in the system to break it down (presumably live rock, sand, all surface areas). The nitrates are being created by the exact same process elsewhere if not in the bio-media.
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Old 01-16-2007, 07:42 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Great question.. just wanted to post real quick and let you know i am going to address this here in just a few moment, so sit back get a drink and hopefully we can work through this one..
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Old 01-16-2007, 08:19 PM   #5 (permalink)
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ok lets start with the basics for everyone else that doesn't already understand what a wet/dry (or trickle) filter is
also, see podcast episode 46 for more info
Q&A #5 - Podcast Episode 46

This is a type of filter that contains a large open area that is filled with some type of media, either plastic bio-balls, small ceramic rings, or other ceramic materials in various other designs. while the designs vary the end result is the same. These filters aim to handle most of the biological filtration for your tank. water is they drained or trickled over this media keeping the media wet, but the media is never actually submerged.
so what does this do?
well this creates a very oxygen rich (or aerobic) area. and this is where the types of aerobic bacteria. this is the bacteria that processes the first few stages
ammonia -> nitrite and then nitrite -> nitrate
this final stage has to be tackled by another bacteria that is found in low/no oxygen areas (anaerobic) this conversion is of nitrate -> to nitrogen

but then you ask an important question, well if you only have X amount to raw materials how can you end up with excess of the final product.
in other words, how can you end up with a house with only 10 2x4's

That is a great question, and here is how...

so lets setup our example here with some very pretend numbers. the details im going to use here are very inaccurate, but the results are the same, and relevant

So lets start with our tank running with not enough bio filtration, IE not enough LR, DSB, wet dry, etc...
we have our tank running, and it starts the day with 100 units of ammonia. our inefficient bio filtration reduces this to
70 ammonia
10 nitrite
15 nitrate
5 nitrogen
(again these are pretend units for this example)

now we need need more filtration so we smack on our wet/dry.
It being an insanely efficient device clears out the first parts as follows
0 ammonia
0 nitrite
70 nitrate
30 nitrogen
hmm.. well we need to handle that nitrate.. lets stock up our live rock and insert a mature DSB (we will pretend we can snap these items into place as mature)

ok, now with our mature DSB and LR we are at the following
0 ammonia
0 nitrite
40 nitrate
60 nitrogen

Hmm.. still way too much nitrate, why is that, we have the DSB and LR..

well lets take a look at the same system with out the wet/dry
our parameters are something like this
10 ammonia
10 nitrite
10 nitrate
70 nitrogen
(again, these are pretend units)

now lets introduce another piece and state that a test kit can only detect levels higher than 10 units (anything 10 and under register as 0 on a test kit)

hmm.. interesting.. what do we have here...
well what's really happening here is that the wet/dry filter is just overly efficient. It's removing everything, leaving more nitrates than your system can process.. when in fact the system without the wet/dry is able to establish a balance it levels that are
a.) low enough not to bother anything, and
b.) low enough not to even show on a test kit.

so now after all of that, where does all that excess raw material come from? well it was there all along..

does this mean wet/drys can not be used? absolutely not, however unless you fully understand your system, understand how these types of filters work, and have a plan do deal with it, then stay away from then in a reef tank. In reality many people find it easier to let the system balance it self out as they will do if setup correctly.

i really hope this help, if not by all means lets keep this thread going.
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Last edited by Rob; 01-17-2007 at 12:00 AM.
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Old 01-16-2007, 08:30 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Nicely done Rob.
And thank you for saving my fingers from all that grueling typing. lol
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Old 01-16-2007, 08:47 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I change my vote on you not being as verbose as David and Greg.... (he he)

Great post.
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Old 01-16-2007, 09:01 PM   #8 (permalink)
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lol..
this is good, as long as i do it where appropriate..
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