closed loop & return line?

[Astrivian]

I had a thought regarding how to utilize my Mag 24's power a bit better. At the moment it is returning the water from my sump to the display. However, most of its power is sent through a loop back into the sump; else, it drains the sump of water before it can refill. Even with this loop, the pump occasionally makes whirlpools in the sump water, resulting in an annoying sucking sound.

So, i was thinking of using my return pump as a closed loop pump as well. Check out this schematic:



The idea is that the Mag could suck water from the display like a closed loop and a bit of water from the sump, like a return. The gate valves would allow me to regulate how much water it took from the display and sump. The same 1" return line would return the water back to the tank.

The front view of the image shows what i have in mind inside the tank. I split the intank into 4 since i think one or two would create a dangerous suction at those points. Not shown in the shematic would be holes drilled above the water line and fitted with hard tubing (like the type used in the RODI filters). The end of these tubes would sit a fraction of an inch (a few millimeters) below the waterline of the display to break a siphon should the pump shut off.

I am thinking this setup would have several advangates over my current design:

1) Much greater flow (up to 2,400 gph) in the display without having to buy new pumps, powerheads, etc.
2) Better control over how much water the pump draws from the sump, which will hopefully end the whirlpool noises.
3) By allowing the Mag to pull from the tank, i can open the return lines more and reduce the back pressure on the pump. This should quiet it down some; it is very loud.
4) Since i do not have to change any of the current pluming, if this design doesn't work it will be easy to revert to the system i have now.

Any thoughts?

[CarmieJo]

This looks like a good idea to me BUT, I really an not very good when it comes to the plumbing stuff. So, you can just consider this a and hopefully one of the people who are smarter than I with this will respond.

[veriann]

its sounds like the overflow standpipe is too restrictive to start with yeah, hence the need to divert the flow of the return> thus allowing for great looped return volume in the sump and regulating the through-put into the display so it doesn't over whelm your overflow. kinda like a cat & mouse game.

i cant see you pic because the filters are crazy here at work. but if this is a new tank, or an old one you have to drain to redrill your new closed loop holes, your far better off over sizing the overflow dump pipe for anything you can throw at it., then if you wanted to create more flow you can open full throttle & divert or split the path to your needs.

just a thought. Nice ideal though, i'll give you that!

[Amphibious]

Any thoughts???, you ask? Of course we have thoughts. Here's mine.

I think your plan is a good one. I think it will work and solve your problems. BUT, the only way to find out if a plumbing idea will work in an open water environment is to put it to task. Plumb it up and plug it in.

The reason I say it that way is, you are showing us a partial straight line drawing of a three dimensional situation that involves open water vessels setting on different levels. Water "seeks it's own level" is a phenomenon that sometimes thwarts the best of plumbing plans.

I say, "It looks like a good plan, give it a shot". Then report back here so we can copy your success or avoid your disaster.

I hope this helps!

Dick

[Astrivian]

Originally Posted by Amphibious

I say, "It looks like a good plan, give it a shot". Then report back here so we can copy your success or avoid your disaster.

Dick

Ah yes dick, you are right. Again, the advantage of this design is that i do not have to change my current setup at all. So, if it doesn't work, i can dismantle it and revert to where i am now.

but if this is a new tank, or an old one you have to drain to redrill your new closed loop holes, your far better off over sizing the overflow dump pipe for anything you can throw at it., then if you wanted to create more flow you can open full throttle & divert or split the path to your needs.

This is a new tank Veriann, a 100 gallon glass tank. The standpipes are 1.5" wide (3.81 cm) and i think they could keep up with the return pump on their own. The problem i have had is the sump is not large enough to maintain this flow; the Mag drains the sump before the overflows can catch back up and level out the water. My current design restricts any increase in sump volume at this point.

I might have to give this a try and let you know how it works. Hopefully i will not flood my house too much

[NaClFinatic]

I think this might be a difficult balancing act... Just some things to consider:

1. Can the mag begin suction out of the tank on its own or will that need primed? If It needs to stay primed and the mag cant do it on its own, I dont think I would try this.

2. If it does have enough suction to prime on its own, then that starts siphon power going also. Now you run the risk of filling the sump because of this extra drain in addition to the original overlfow. So be sure this extra intake is high enoguh in the water to stop sucking if the tank level drops too much.

3. You might get a lot of bubbles if the extra pipe does not stay completely submerged.

Im no plumbing expert and I am a pesimist. Personally, I would sell the 24 and buy a couple smaller pumps for my return and closed loop. It could also work great and be a really unique setup. Just up to wether you want to experiment or not. Good luck and It'll be great to see the pictures of this in action

[Astrivian]

Originally Posted by NaClFinatic

I think this might be a difficult balancing act... Just some things to consider:

1. Can the mag begin suction out of the tank on its own or will that need primed? If It needs to stay primed and the mag cant do it on its own, I dont think I would try this.

Very good point, i hadn't thought of that. What would prime this? do i just need some water in the line to create some suction? If so, maybe i can make a U at one point to hold some water to help prime the pump. I am not sure though, i will have to consider this.

Man, i am glad i posted this idea before starting to build Thanks all!

[veriann]

i see your delema.

being that the sumps on the small side (hope it can hold critical backflow) the volume drains before it spreads across the display level to hit the overflow lip to fill the cavity. is this the case? or is it the overflow spillway thats restrictive? so in essence i see you need to pre prime the overflow cavity ahead of time. what standpipe design are you using? Even if you move your overflow stand pipe hight up does it still cause problems?

tapping off the return line dirrectly into the overflow cavity will solve it, however deployments the chalenge without adding extra pumps. theres always the DIY route with an x-10 chip set & a chat to your local irragation store for a dirrection control unit on start-up. however this for all but the commitedis unlikely. Idd suggest having a hang on guttering type system on the back of your tank, use a power head to fill in constantly & have it drain dirrectly into a sumerged corner of the overflow, that way when the drain effect happens it can supply the demand till the displays water trickles over!

thats my role, to bring fantastic adventures to everyones life.

[Astrivian]

Yes V this certainly does sound like an adventure!

I think i might just have to give this design a shot and see how it works. Whats the worst that could happen

[veriann]

go for, as amp said, trying is the splice of life. well i modified it somewhat, but whos counting anyways
good luck, look forward to your closed loop idea with mass pic display of the build-up

[Astrivian]

IT WORKS!

So i just rigged up the closed loop to the return pump and it works wonderfully! This will require some pics and i am searching for a camera as i type. Hmmmm maybe a good video too

Now the pump pulls from the sump and directly from the tank like a closed loop. The sound of the dumb pump has been drastically reduced and the flow in the tank was about tripled.

No wait....you don't fully understand why this is so cool: this is the first mod i have made so far without flooding the floor. (fingers crossed).

[lReef lKeeper]

have you unplugged it yet to see how far it will drain and then plug it back in to see if it can start a siphon on its own ??

[Astrivian]

Yes i have tried shutting the power off bobby. I took NaCL's advice and put a U bend at the bottom. The pipe is also submerged in the sump for a good three feet or so and this seems to do the trick. It blows a lot of bubbles when it starts up, but it gets going quickly.

I drilled a small hole and inserted a piece of tubing with the other end submerged just beneath the water line in the tank. This cuts the siphon effect when the pump shuts off.

dang....where's that camera.