As requested by Rob, I moved this debate from the show notes responses to the discussion forum.
<"I would have to disagree a little with you on that one. Corporate does not make the list each week of livestock that gets shipped to the stores. The local managers do. So if you want to blame anybody for lack of knowledge on the care requirements of the livestock, blame the managers and the ones they hire. I'm not defending the bigger people in these business's but lets see it as it really is. And I live by the biggest Petco in my area that has the biggest aquatic center in the state and they do a decent job. But I do believe thats because they have taken their time and gotten good people to work there. So don't always blame Corporate America for all the problems of the world." > (Mr. Tang)
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In response to Mr. Tang:
Actually what you said about the ordering of livestock is only partly true. This is why I say more blame should be placed up the ladder. My brother actually works at a Petco part-time while going through school and yes they do make a weekly order. However, the corporate management also sends periodical specials without even informing them of what is coming in. Recently, they sent a shipment of deresa clams and have been sending carpet anemones, leather corals and mushroom corals without our consent. After repeated requests, the upper management has still refused to increase the lighting as that would be too expensive for them. There are several knowledgeable employees there who can properly care for these invertabrates, but only if provided with the proper equipment to do so. That being said, it is true that some stores are run better than others and the training for employees in caring for these animals could be more intensive.
I signed the petition. Every store is different. I went to the local Petco this past weekend, inquiring on clownfish and anemones. The girl working the area had no clue what a clownfish was. I have also, in the past, been to other stores, and the staff is quite educated and responsible.
I believe that Petco, being a national company, should invest in proper education, training, equipment for their marine animals. This should include everyone, from the floor sales to upper management. I work at a local hospital and I just went through a 1 week training on how to take information from a patient when they come into the ER! Now, if I need training on how to ask "what is your name, date of birth, and address", and I am not even caring for the individual, then Petco has the moral obligation to do the minimum and be responsible for the marine life that is in their hands. If finances are the concern, then maybe they should be asking themselves if they should even be stocking marine fish. Be responsible and proactive, in the end everyone is happy!!
I am by no means arguing for the continued stocking of marine fish in Petco, I am just stating that the blame should not be placed directly at the low level employees working in these stores.
Generally there are two, maybe three, employees trained to be aquatic specialists. This training is minimal and certainly will not be able to have one of them there at all store hours. This leaves unknowledgeable employees to sell the fish when a specialist is not available. This is not fair to the customer or the people selling the fish.
And yes each store is different, and I can't speak for each individual. What I can say is that the responsibilty and blame should fall on those who have the power to change things.
i have signed AND i do not support the stores for anything. i would rather pay double for my dogs food that support that pet chain.
However, here is my take on it. i think the petition is great, but i dont think that it is going to do a whole lot. i think that the only way that they will stop is if WE, the hobbyists, STOP BUYING FROM THEM. the entire hobby needs to work together to get this done. it does not matter what website you frequent, whether it is TR, RC, TRT, or whatever. we are a "society" of people that probably ALL agree that PetCo is a bad place to get OUR marine life from, but things will NEVER change if we do not all stand together ON EVERY SITE AVAILABLE and keep the new hobbyists or the future hobbyists from going there in the first place.
just my $.02, thanks for the lead Rob !!
__________________ Bobby
"I FORMERLY glued animals to rocks" NO TANK RIGHT NOW, but you never know when I might throw one together !! I have everything I need but the time!!
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Anne, just a comment on the clownfish and anemone. No advice is far better that bad advice IMO. You may encounter a clerk at a big box store or mom & pop LFS who is knowledgeable and can give you good advice. Some are ignorant and some will make a sale at any cost. You should never take their advice without doing your own research. Read books, study the internet and ASK us. No one here at TR has an agenda except to help you have a thriving piece of the ocean in the middle of the desert.
As my first bit of advice, I wanted to make sure that you know that anemones require relatively strong lights and a mature tank. It is always a big mistake to put 2 cute nemos and an anemone in a tank that is newly established. Well actually the clowns are a good first fish and they don't need an anemone to be happy.
The Petco near me stopped selling SW fish over a year ago, due to poor sales. I only bought fish there once (4 BG Chromis), but I have to admit that the young (and hot) woman that sold them to me, grilled me for several minutes about my current setup before she retrieved them. I guess every store is different and experiences vary wildly, but then again there a lot of bad privately owned stores also.
__________________ I have Attention Defic...HEY LOOK, A FISH!
I work at Petco and I know that the ordering is only partially the responsibility of the person ordering it. Only fish on the planogram set at the corporate level may be ordered which means we get a list of say 6 fish and we decide how many of those 6 fish we want to order. Sometimes fish are sent that were not ordered. My store stopped carrying marine fish in November. We were experiencing a high death rate in our tanks but it was not for a lack of trying or knowledge by the staff. The water we had to use was filtered but I don't think its RO/DI. The UV sterilizer bulb was out for I don't know how long and the district manager said we didn't have the money to replace it. We never sold any corals but we did get in the occasional long tentacled or condy anemone which never did well but they didn't supply us with the proper food or lighting for them. While I was initially disappointed that we stopped selling marine livestock I do realize that it was probably for the best.
However, I will not be signing the petition because I don't think that all Petco stores should stop selling marine livestock. A lot of them probably should simply because they don't live in a big enough market for people at the corporate level to justify buying things like RO/DI filters, UV sterilizers and proper lighting. The problem Petco has is that someone from the other side of the country can go rant on a message board about how crappy the Petco near them is and that makes someone not want to go to their Petco. But if I go on and on about how Joe's Blow's Reef Shop down the street is the worst place to get anything from, most of you aren't really going to care. I have often found that workers at independent shops (especially owners) will give you more sketchy advice to make a dollar than your average Petco/Petsmart worker because there is no direct incentive for the big corporate store worker to just sell sell sell all they can. It just really bothers me that people go to 1 or 2 Petco stores and decide that the company is horrible and no one should go there ever for anything. Frankly, saying you don't support Petco for anything sounds silly to me. The Petco foundation spends loads of money every year helping out animals in need. Right now we're doing a fundraiser in which all of the money brought in goes directly to local shelters, Petco doesn't keep a dime. The foundation has also helped out animals during the California wildfires, after hurricane Katrina and animals left without owners after the events on September 11, 2001.
However, here is my take on it. i think the petition is great, but i dont think that it is going to do a whole lot. i think that the only way that they will stop is if WE, the hobbyists, STOP BUYING FROM THEM. the entire hobby needs to work together to get this done. it does not matter what website you frequent, whether it is TR, RC, TRT, or whatever. we are a "society" of people that probably ALL agree that PetCo is a bad place to get OUR marine life from, but things will NEVER change if we do not all stand together ON EVERY SITE AVAILABLE and keep the new hobbyists or the future hobbyists from going there in the first place.
just my $.02, thanks for the lead Rob !!
In an ideal world, with no "ifs" "ands" or "buts", this would work. However, if the "responsible" reef owners/hobbyists decide to no longer support irresponsible, uneducated stores, it doesn't necessarily mean that the shops will quite selling their products or livestock. There are ALWAYS new people joining the hobby, and plenty of buyers just don't give a penny....
So...in my opinion, it's all about education. If we continue to support the education of reefkeepers, then they can share the knowledge. Maybe rather than boycotting certain stores (because as some have mentioned...not all are bad), we should rather try to educate them. Send letters to the managers stating your concerns, send them articles for them to better understand the care required for these critters, etc.
Having said all of that...I'm not a big proponent of chain stores. The danger with big, financially-backed chains, is that they have more money to lose. If a bunch of fish, corals, inverts succumb to lack of care, then it's no big whoop for them. They'll just order more. I think the independent stores have more at stake - not only financially, but reputation as well. AND...it's always good for the local economy.
education !! THATS the word i was looking for. if ALL of the reefing sites stand TOGETHER to EDUCATE new comers, thing would probably work out better for all concerned.
in case you cant tell ... i had a brain fart. education ... how EASY of a word is that ??
__________________ Bobby
"I FORMERLY glued animals to rocks" NO TANK RIGHT NOW, but you never know when I might throw one together !! I have everything I need but the time!!
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I agree with you lReef lKeeper they need more education. I have lots of friends that work at my local petco and they tell me all the time the wholesaler they get the fish from gives them alot of fish with ick and other diseases so its not only petco its the wholesalers selling them sick fish. I think they need more people with education, better equipment and also a new wholesaler to buy from.
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