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View Full Version : More macro growth since feeding phyto?



Ann Marie
10-15-2009, 10:21 AM
I've recently started culturing my own phyto and have been adding it to my reef and seahorse tanks. Since I been adding it I've noticed that in my reef tank, I have to clean the glass more frequently and the macro in the sump is doing well. In my seahorse tanks, where I have macro growing, I've been noticing some growth in those algaes as well.

I know that it is probably because of excess nutrients but is it because I'm adding phyto? Or could it be from fertilizer that hasn't been used from the phyto I'm adding? The fertilizer that I'm using is from Florida Aqua Farms, Micro Grow and I'm adding 2ml when I split a culture. I use 1000ml containers and usually put in a mix of 1/3 phyto to 2/3 sterile water. (I've got more phyto that I've been using so far so I wanted to slow production a little.)

THEJRC
10-15-2009, 11:11 AM
you are correct on the growth!!! It may or may not be a bad thing. If your fine with scraping the glass and your nitrates / phosphates are testing well then I see no real reason to change (unless you want to slow the growth of the macro). The macro is doing you a huge favor by soaking up the excess nutrients.

Whats your split schedule (how often) and have you considered dropping down to F/2 (1ml/liter) from full F strength on the phyto cultures?

Ann Marie
10-15-2009, 11:49 AM
I have several different batches going of nanno. I just started iso and tetraselmis cultures. It seems like I split them about every 7 days. I've really just started so I'm working out the kinks.

Here's a photo of my set up. Phyto on the top two shelves, some rotifers on the bottom. In the empty tank, I plan to start some mysid.

Okay, next time I split I'll try the f/2 and put more phyto into the new culture and see how that goes.

The scraping doesn't bother me. I'm happy that some of my macros are starting to grow and no one in the tank seems the worse for wear. (And the copepods in my H. erectus tank are taking off! Too bad they don't go after them, I think that they like the amphipods better.)

THEJRC
10-15-2009, 08:25 PM
on the mysids, there is a rearing tank design in Hoffs manual that has tested real well!!! you may look at implementing some form of that! culture rack looks excellent!

CarmieJo
10-15-2009, 08:37 PM
The culture rack looks great!

Ann Marie
10-15-2009, 09:06 PM
Those lights were hanging in my garage. HE HE! I bought new bulbs for them. I guess they are still hanging in the garage, but in a different way!

CarmieJo
10-15-2009, 10:23 PM
Smart thinking!

rayme07
10-15-2009, 10:54 PM
Neat looking bottles too. :up:

sunny d polyp
11-24-2009, 01:53 PM
Now that is a culture rack with personality, I like it!

V
11-24-2009, 09:33 PM
great vessiles.

THEJRC
11-28-2009, 06:48 PM
the round bottom flasks definately smoke the erlynmeyer types when it comes to the shape. the rounded bottoms help keep algae cells in suspension without a whole lot of aeration, this is a good thing as the flat vessels require often too much aeration to keep cells from settling. Naturally too much aeration beats the poor cells to death. you have to trade off some settling in the interest of the culture of a whole with any other vessel. such is life.

Unfortunately the round bottom flasks arent cheap!

Ann Marie
11-29-2009, 02:56 AM
I'm trying a new process with culturing phyto. Instead of the flasks, I'm using my FoodSaver to seal the phytoculture into bags. Then I'm poking a hole into the bags for the tubing. I'm then hanging them in front of the lights.

Even though the bags go into the trash, I think it will still benefit the environment because I'm not having to use chemicals to clean the flasks with or lots of water for rinsing.

We'll have to see how it goes.

THEJRC
11-29-2009, 03:21 AM
Ive seen production methods using bags several times. it seems to be preferred in lab environments where requirements fluctuate as it's a simple way to scale without using up a lot of space and resources. FAF has a fairly common style of bag-rig as well as a few of the other biological supply shops. the downside obviously is that the bags are one time use, but the amount of time, effort, and resources to clean vessels is a definate footprint to be counted.

I actually use 1 gallon square water jugs or 3 liter round water jugs, they can be had for 10 for $10 at most grocery stores and I actually use the water for top off or my cultures. I get about three to four splits with each jug before I toss it in the recycle bin, this way I dont use the time and resources to clean the things, and as cheap as they are they fit for me. Though I also run a fairly high volume need ranging anywhere from 15 to 60 liters every two weeks.

I never thought of using a food saver though, that alone will help keep contaminates down to a great degree! Less culture contamination = more production and naturally the eco-footprint is smaller as well. People rarely think about how much energy things actually use (it's an interesting bit of math when it comes to bio-diesel and electric fuel alternatives... even those methods have footprints!) Point to ponder, but even your Co2 (if you use it) most likely came from a propane or natural gas fired Co2 Generator... theres a footprint in that as well!

V
11-29-2009, 08:29 AM
Your not wrong there bud, ive been spending quite some in the last few months especially, researching alternative energies in a serious way in order to adapt it to aquaponics sustainability and overall less dependence on the system.
The knowledge bubble certainly expands when your forced to focus on input vs outputs.

However, like anything we tend to touch if your serious, over engineering & supplying on the hardware side of things is a given so you "dont" have to notice the principle limitations of any given system.

It depends on what angle you look at it, Offsetting a footprint will never be fully achievable if you factor what it took to make the product to begin with, however on the flip side once established properly there's an ongoing offset for the life of the systems.

Just on this topic, i wouldn't mind a fill in from your side bud, we're allowed 38 panels on our roof allowing for 5kw max.
However the plumb back scheme is gay at this point. The main problem is if you have a large enough system at this point in time you wont see any return unless you trickle charge the system off mains power when weather dictates it.

as per below.


Victoria net feed in tariff


Victorian households with solar power systems will be paid a feed in tariff from November 2009. Legislation for the Victorian feed in tariff was introduced on March 10, 2009 (http://www.energymatters.com.au/government-rebates/feedintariff.php); then revised and passed on June 25, 2009.

Under the program, Victorian households, community organisations and small businesses who consume less than 100 megawatt hours of electricity a year will be credited a minimum 60 cents for every unused kilowatt hour of power fed back into the state electricity grid. Some electricity retailers may offer a higher amount.

However, this will only be as a credit on a bill, rather than a cash payment as in other states. If the system owner generates credit from the feed-in tariff exceeding the cost of their electricity consumption during the billing period, the additional credit is rolled over to the next billing period up to a maximum of 12 months from the generation date. Depending on the electricity provider, accumulated credit may voided after the 12 months.

The tariff will only be available until a total capacity of systems participating reaches 100 megawatts total capacity.

PV systems larger than 5 kilowatts in size and other renewable energy systems up to 100 kilowatts in size remain eligible for the standard feed-in tariff.

V
11-29-2009, 08:36 AM
I'm trying a new process with culturing phyto. Instead of the flasks, I'm using my FoodSaver to seal the phytoculture into bags. Then I'm poking a hole into the bags for the tubing. I'm then hanging them in front of the lights.

Even though the bags go into the trash, I think it will still benefit the environment because I'm not having to use chemicals to clean the flasks with or lots of water for rinsing.

We'll have to see how it goes.

good idea on the bag & tag. Ive also seen it applied on the large scale systems, but never on a hobby level. look forward to your progress AM

THEJRC
11-29-2009, 11:08 AM
hrmm still a better tariff deal than we're looking at, though we dont really have the limitations either. Depending on inspection requirements and such it may be possible to get away with a separate charge controller and peeling off a few of those PV's dedicated *just* to charging a battery store. Or if possible add a wind turbine to the mix to beef up production on more weather packed days, then again theres more cost so payoff once again gets adjusted.

The only real way I suppose would be to watch the consumption and reduce as much as possible. I assume your thinking in line of a battery bank which would stabilize the usage curve and if large enough capacity you could feasably let the system charge up while really watching consumption for an initial period then ride it out. Problem there of course is the over time thing once again. Most battery banks require replacement around the 5-8 year mark and given the nastiness of the chemicals the waste tends to cause more harm than the entire system will do good. Then again I'm not sure if you can even get away with that as theres oddness abound with the grid assist vs. grid tie here in the states.

Ann Marie
11-29-2009, 01:07 PM
The bags can be reusable as well. I was wondering if I turned them inside out and put them in the dishwasher if that would be clean enough to store (not to culture) the same species of phyto in?

When I go to split the culture, I could probably just rinse the bag out to remove the clumps of phyto and then bag and seal what I was going to store in my refrigerator. Since part of what originally grew in there is being replaced I would think that the chance of contamination would be low as long as I didn't introduce anything new.

I'm always on the lookout for ways I can improve my footprint since I know that in certain areas I have a much larger footprint (like when my chillers turn on or my MH on my reef tank comes on) :) .

sunny d polyp
12-08-2009, 09:21 PM
Ann Marie how do you hang the bags? I know on the box of food saver bags it says you can reuse by washing in the dish washer, I use 1 liter flasks but would love to try something easier. If you Google "alternative fuels in Texas" it will bring you to a site where they hang ( it looks like) 30/gal bags of phyto out side in natural sun light. I guess you could rinse the bags with alcohol to be sure they are sterile but I'm curious about how you hang them.

Ann Marie
12-08-2009, 09:33 PM
I use a saudering iron to put 3 holes in the bag. One for the air tubing, and two for an "S" hook. I fold the bag over just to increase the holding power of the bag. I have attached a chain across the shelving unit and hang the bags from that.

If you were going to rinse the bags with a chemical, you might as well use the flasks. I use the bag and then toss it. I do share phyto with a friend and I put his back into the bag I just used and then I seal it using the food saver.

sunny d polyp
12-08-2009, 10:23 PM
Thx Ann Marie.

THEJRC
12-09-2009, 12:13 AM
If you're looking for something good to clean your bags / flasks / whatever out with you should use alconox soap. It's fairly cheap and rinses very clean. It's also a very popular cleanser used in labs. You can get it in powder form from FAF and Carolina and a little goes a long way.

As far as the 1 liter flasks (or the bags for that matter) I still prefer the gallon jug method. three uses before chucking into the recycle bin (without cleaning) or about 15 uses with cleaning (use a toilet brush and alconox) is a pretty long life cycle for a vessel that holds quite a bit!! Downside is it's plastic, upside is you can recycle it easily,

As far as the commercial systems, typically they use a hose clamp (plastic or metal) to hold the bag onto a PVC elbow where the air inlet is drilled in.

As far as a preferred method I guess it depends on your circumstance!!! With my current projects I'm consuming about 7 gallons of culture every 8 days... my cultures yield 9 gallons every 8 days which gives me a gallon for reserve which I will refrigerate and try to use within 24-48 hours of pulling. I also like dry martini's so I've been using the empty glass jugs from my Gin to replace the plastic jugs I'm using from time to time. It's an empty jug that I will end up sending to the recycle bin anyways so I might as well get a few "second" uses out of it prior. They seem to work well but I have to ramp up more cultures to keep with my current usage so they sit empty and dry until my usage drops!

sunny d polyp
12-09-2009, 08:43 PM
Hello JRC good to hear from you again, you were the one that got me started on that soap and I've been using it religiously every since. I'm trying to save some time, it takes a while to clean the flasks, I tried to clean them in the dish washer but the alconox soap must not be dish washer safe because it turned my kitchen floor into a cartoon strip, what a mess. :D
I noticed you have been working on your site "Copepod Geek", looks nice, I would love to pick your brain and find out why I'm copepod challenged, they do great for a while and crash, I have tried everything but I have finally put this endeavor on hold, I have managed to do well with the 3 phytos which you had a big part in.

sunny d polyp
12-28-2009, 12:16 PM
many posts from me about phyto, I guess JRC is bored with me.:p

Ann Marie
12-28-2009, 12:51 PM
Sunny,

Perhaps he didn't see a specific question in your post. I know I didn't so maybe that's why he didn't reply.

Ann Marie
12-28-2009, 12:53 PM
How much phyto should I be using in my tanks. I know a lot of it has to do with size of tank and what's in it, but just a ball park amount would help. As it is now, I just add a splash every few days.

sunny d polyp
12-28-2009, 01:03 PM
Hello Ann, I add 1cup of phyto every other day to my 75/gal heavily stocked reef; JRC and I have been conversing for about 6 months, he has taught me 80% of what I know about culturing phyto. What kind of phyto do you use, is it live? I combine 3 types together and dump in the mix to my fuges.

Ann Marie
12-28-2009, 02:52 PM
Hi Sunny

I do culture my own phyto, Nano and Iso. What kind do you use? My tanks aren't heavily stocked, I have 4 tanks and am hoping that I can talk my husband into letting me keep one more for a frogfish. The biggest problem with that is I don't know where to put it. The reason I have so many tanks is that most of them are really species specific.

I've learned a quite a bit of information here and from a manual on culturing that I have.

sunny d polyp
12-28-2009, 03:42 PM
Sorry, I just read your posts again and realize you already culture your phyto. I have Tet, T-iso Galbana and nano. I just have one tank a 75/gal mostly LPS corals. If I had room I would love to have species tanks but I know I would get carried away and my wife would have to step in and stop me hehe. I was raising rotifers for a long time but stopped and just hatch brine shrimp and feed the newly hatched critters to my tank every other day.
I have the manual from Frank Hoff (Plankton Manual) the manual has a lot of info, this may be the one you already own.

THEJRC
12-28-2009, 06:26 PM
oh man, this thread slipped away from me!!!

Sorry!!!

Sunny,

go back a week or two before the pods crash, how are you feeding, aerating, and changing water on your cultures?? As cultures get more populated a higher oxygenation rate is typically needed as these guys will run a high metabolism rate especially with readily available food. What are the cultures doing when they crash? And what kind of pod are you raising, what type of vessel?

Ann,

How much to add really depends on the system itself really. I tend to not be very sparing when adding Live algaes but very very sparing when feeding preserved algaes. I've been known to dump a gallon or two into my 300 gallon system just for the heck of it. The trick is to look at what your goal is and where you are targeting the algae, if your goal is to merely induce zooplankton populations dosing your refugium with a splash here and there is typically fine. My goals are to sustain a much larger bio-diversity so I tend to feed quite a bit (1 gallon or so weekly) in sump and all tanks. Since many of my tanks on that system are used for breeding and examination the higher concentration allows me to support my critters. Then again, I'm accustomed to increased algae growth and my system is balanced out as a high nutrient system. If you feel like adding more just increase slowly over time to allow the system to balance itself.

sunny d polyp
12-29-2009, 10:36 PM
The first time I began with plicitilis I ordered from FAF, it was the dry cysts and within a couple pf weeks I had 4 - 2/liter brine shrimp hatchers I also purchased from FAF full of roti's, I was removing and adding back 700 ml's from each hatcher every day for months until I grabbed the wrong jug of what I thought was my roti culture water and was actually a gal of phyto culture water with .6ml's of sodium hypo-chlorite and crashed them all. I was adding twice a day 100ml's of phyto (tet, t.iso and nano mix) that I am culturing, they would clear the vessel in an 8 hour period. I then bought from FAF a qt of roti's and began the process all over again and had no success, none what so ever. I bought a total of 4 qt bottles of plicitilis in a two month period and every time within a few days when they were beginning to multiply to a decent population the culture would crash. I'm not sure if it was because I started with the cysts or what, I talked with FAF several times and they told me to feed the roti's "Roti-Rich" in stead of phyto, so I tried that also and had the same failed results. I finally gave up because I assumed the cope God was going to seek vengeance upon me for my being cope-pod challenged. Sorry for the long post (not my last) but I wanted to give you all the info up front. The sg of the culture water was 1.022 (I know they prefer 1.015) this is closer to the sg of my tank 1.025 (I was concerned with osmic shock) and the ph is 8.1/8.3, temp around 78/80F. The water is from tank partials strained thru a 50 micron sieve and diluted with ro/di water.

THEJRC
12-30-2009, 10:50 AM
ten to one your getting some cilate or other contamination from the tank partials, you may just want to try sticking with RO water on the next run. Try dropping your salinity down to 1.020 (they can handle around a 7 point bounce before shock hits).

Roti's are quite different from pods, but most of the general culture guidelines remain. due to their small size they become prey to a ton of other contaminates that most pods will endure. try using fresh RO first then go from there! Also, make sure the water never quite goes clear! the 700ml removal daily was a great start!

Ann Marie
12-30-2009, 02:19 PM
Thanks J!

I do find that I have to clean my glass every day because of algae build up on it. But I truly believe that diversity equates to stability in our marine environments. My fish appear happy, and my corals look good so I guess I really don't mind cleaning the glass.

I've had my anemones split more often then normal since I've been dosing phyto. I wonder if there's a link. They are a beautiful deep red, my water is stable and they grow so I can't imagine they are stressed. Perhaps they are splitting because they are just happy. Whatever it is, I'm going to have to take some into my favorite LFS for trade. I hate the thought of that because someone that won't care for them properly may buy them.

THEJRC
12-30-2009, 04:01 PM
Bio-diversity is key!!

Most reefkeepers run extremely low nutrient, which works in the aspect that it keeps the bad stuff in check, the problem is it doesnt do much to make the good stuff thrive. Both methods are good, it's just a matter of preference and how much you're willing to take on the downsides.

In higher nutrient systems nuisance algaes and critters such as aptasia will easily take hold and run rampant if unmanaged. Fortunately there are a number of ways around this (through better bio-diversity no less!). It's the difference between running a "reef tank" and a "ecosystem". fun stuff!