I just wanted to start a thread that I can easily link in other threads when necessary.

This is why I believe everyone should wait at least 12 weeks before stocking a tank (algae eating clean-up critters are an exception.)

Here is WHY:

1) You are playing God to fragile critters that were taken from the ocean. Their care and well being is your #1 priority. You are creating a mini ocean environment and you need similar water quality and certainly stability. How long has the ocean been around? How long has your tank been setup? Shouldn't you wait a little longer??? :confused:

2) Throw the test kits out the window. Here is a quote that I believe in,

"Patience and observation, rather than daily use of a water test kit, is a better approach to any new marine aquarium setup." (Nilsen, Fossa, p. 29-30)

Sure go ahead and WATCH the cycle and learn how to use your test kits- no harm done there, BUT once again, your tank is not ready even if you SAW a cycle within 2 weeks. The simple reason is because water quality changes over time and will continue to change as your tank ages. Another quote:

"As the time goes by in a new saltwater aquarium, the water conditions become safer and steadier. The populations of various decomposing bacteria that are vital for the balance of the system have built up and stabilized, normally after about 12 weeks." (Nilsen, Fossa p. 30)

3) This is more geared for n00bs, but every new tank has a "getting to know you time frame." It takes more than 12 weeks to learn how to operate your tank. Can you maintain the same pH, alk, salinity, temperature, calcium, nitrate, nitrite, etc, etc readings ?? Do you know how to filter a tank? Have you decided how to skim and do you even have a good skimmer? What are your reasons for having a DSB, BB, or SSB? *because Rob said so is not the right answer!! :mrgreen: Are you using bioballs and why? Are you running carbon and why? Is your backup pump ready for emergencies? Will your heater cook your tank? Do you know how to read your test kits and make the necessary adjustments? Is your RODI unit setup? Please add to my list. My point is, you shouldn't even be thinking about fish and corals just yet.

It personally took me 4 weeks to get the temp stable in my recently setup nano and I've been in the hobby a few years. 150w metal halide and 12 gallon tank- NOT EASY!

4) Are you in this hobby for the right reasons? There are those who really don't care about the critters and setup a tank to have something nice to look out and well, that's just too bad. The good thing is, those people don't stick around too long. The true reefers enjoy the blood, sweat, and tears it takes to keep a tank and we are nicely rewarded with a gorgeous tank: patience repaid.

I firmly believe EVERY newly setup tank NEEDS a 12 week cycle.
There are my beliefs and I challenge you to cycle for no less than 12 weeks.

I understand all the excuses: the test kits said my tank was ready, the LFS said my tank was ready, my tank looks ready...... From this point forward, you read the post: NO EXCUSES :mrgreen:

And just as a note- 12 weeks is a minimum- certainly using uncured LR or other factors will/may require a longer wait.

gwen, im not 100% sure whats THE right & only way to set up a tank these days. I do know there are roads that lead to headaches and there are roads that lead to enjoyment. in this hobby its garanteed at some point that both these roads will cross paths even if you know what your doing, or what your systems doing. observations and experience show that you can take a larger piece of established reef, transplant it into a younger system and it matures quicker than starting fresh via seeding with a cup of established sand. im never going to say your wrong, i totally respect your option, you air on the side of caution, which is great, and your healthy tanks are your testamont to the fact that your doing it right . as for stability in three weeks instead of 12 weeks. we are always going to be the observers here, nature shows us through our own inventions to test nature. its a cause & effect hobby!

their are 3 stages to learning in this hobby,
1) we have principles to grasp & make sence of,
2) we then try to apply these principles to build our creations,
3) and somewhere,,, and at some point in the near distant future we really start to understand the how and the why and thats where the clarity sets in, starting the natral progression towards a never ending thurst for information.

My belief: There is a saying that i saw at a skydive launch pad. "Learn from others mistakes, because u wont get the chance to make them yourselves"

This isn't as extreme as skydiving, but the principles sound!
noobs should make a real effort to track down a tank buddy to learn off before they even think of getting a system of their own , watch and do the maintenance, learn the equiptment needed, the needs of the animals they keep.
In the meantime they can see what works, buy right equiptment along the way, and learn some of the pit falls that can be avoided, but above all, really start to understand the why & how

One of the wonderful things the Internet has given us is the ability to communicate with each other to disseminate new ideas, methodologies and vital information. We can have differing opinions based on our readings, education and experience all with out malice. The recipient of said information can make there own decision as to which path they wish to follow. Actually, they will take bits and pieces of information from various sources and put together their "Little Piece of the Ocean" and begin the journey we all have taken in the beginning. They will, hopefully, learn as they go along just as we did and become successful reef keepers.

I have a great deal of respect for Gwen. She is an important contributer and an asset to the Talking Reef Community. I feel her post is in direct response to my method mentioned in different threads. We happen to disagree on the waiting period for the "Cycle" to complete and the addition of critters.

Gwen, none of my response is to be taken personally. I'm simply replying to a thread you started, stating our differences and why. The folks can decide for themselves. Education is the purpose here.

For clarification of what gives me the right to make such statements that follow, a synopsis of my bio. I began in the hobby in 1946, 60 years ago, I was heavy into freshwater until I went into saltwater in 1966, went completely out of freshwater and into saltwater exclusively in 1972. From 1972 to date I have been in retail, installation/maintenance, wholesale, and now Internet sales. I set up my first "Reef" tank with LR, LS, sump/refugium, UV Sterilizer, Skimmer with Ozone generator in 1988. Over the years I have installed 100's of marine aquariums and sold thousands both wholesale and retail. When doing installations I offered a 30 day guarantee on all livestock. To say I know it all would be very wrong. To say I know a system that works would be quite accurate.

Gwen's way works to be sure but to say it is what everyone should follow is irresponsible, in my humble opinion.

1) You are playing God to fragile critters that were taken from the ocean. Their care and well being is your #1 priority.I agree totally!

How long has the ocean been around? How long has your tank been setup? Shouldn't you wait a little longer???It's true, the oceans are as old as time itself. However, what we are waiting for is a "cycle" to begin and stabilize our tank environment. It's true, this takes time. In the '60s,'70s and '80s, we had to wait about 12 weeks for the "cycle" to complete. Some times longer. With the advent of the use of LR and LS the "cycling" time was shortened considerably. Now, set up properly, following established protocol, a "cycle" can happen in a much shorter time frame. My 135 "cycled" in two weeks. That means the population of nitrifying bacteria present in the LR and LS is sufficient to convert the available nutrients. If we don't add critters for ten weeks the population of nitrifying bacteria will die back because of the lack of food. Then when you add critters you may very well have another "cycle" because the nitrifying bacteria population may be too low to convert the available nutrients from the newly added critters. A dangerous position to put yourself into.

2) Throw the test kits out the window. Here is a quote that I believe in,

"Patience and observation, rather than daily use of a water test kit, is a better approach to any new marine aquarium setup." (Nilsen, Fossa, p. 29-30)I'm familiar with and respect Nilsen and Fossa for the most part. However, I totally disagree with them on this one and here's why.

Saltwater, for the most part, is crystal clear. Ammonia, and the Nitrogen compounds we are trying to eliminate or reduce in our aquariums is not visible to the naked eye. That is why we must use test kits designed to bring their levels in our aquariums to light. For the above quoted authors to make that statement and for you to advocate boggles my mind. While staring daily at a tank full of LR and LS what is it you are expecting to see??? You cannot "see" the cycle except with test kits.

Sure go ahead and WATCH the cycle and learn how to use your test kits- no harm done there, BUT once again, your tank is not ready even if you SAW a cycle within 2 weeks.This was addressed above. I'll just reiterate, if you don't feed the bacteria they will die back. This could lead to a mini-cycle and potential problems when you do add fish 10 weeks down the road. And, your doing more than learning how to use your test kits. You will witness the cycle event. It's very important in your learning curve to "see" a cycle as it happens.

The simple reason is because water quality changes over time and will continue to change as your tank ages.I agree but, perhaps with a different understanding. In the beginning of a new tank the water, for all practical purposes, is essentially sterile. At the completion of the cycle, in whatever time frame you subscribe too, the water is at it's best. Over time the water does change, it degrades. That's why we use skimmers, UV sterilizers, refugiums, carbon, etc, and advocate regular water changes, all just to try and keep the water quality up to par.

Another quote:

"As the time goes by in a new saltwater aquarium, the water conditions become safer and steadier. The populations of various decomposing bacteria that are vital for the balance of the system have built up and stabilized, normally after about 12 weeks." (Nilsen, Fossa p. 30)This is addressed above except for one important statement, "normally after about 12 weeks." It is my belief that the authors are not advocating waiting 12 weeks to add critters but, to add them cautiously over that time testing as you go along. I don't have their book so I can't be sure about this statement. But, this is my gut feeling.

Number 3) & 4), I agree that people need to learn their systems, and the use of equipment and test kits, etc. Too, many times people jump into a saltwater tank without proper education.

I firmly believe EVERY newly setup tank NEEDS a 12 week cycle.
There are my beliefs and I challenge you to cycle for no less than 12 weeks.This is obviously where Gwen and I differ the most. No problem on my part, Gwen, you can and will continue to put this method to practice. It works for you. Testing, witnessing the cycle and proceeding with caution works for me. I can accept our differences. But, the folks will decide which method they wish to follow. Both work!

I understand all the excuses: the test kits said my tank was ready, the LFS said my tank was ready, my tank looks ready...... From this point forward, you read the post: NO EXCUSES :mrgreen:I've said it before (not in this post) and I'll say it again, the worst place to get advice for setting up your reef tank is your LFS!!! It's sad but true. My guess is about 90% of LFS give out bad advice. So, newbies, join Talking Reef Community or another if you prefer (I don't know why you'd to join any other forum, you've found the best). Ask questions and listen to people like Gwen, Rob and many others, too. You could even try my method. :grin:

Gwen, thank you for starting this thread and allowing me to communicate my thoughts. You've been a wonderful new friend and I love you. http://www.theculturedreef.com/01F0B5~1.GIF

gwen, im not 100% sure whats THE right & only way to set up a tank these days.

What is your opinion of the right way?


I do know there are roads that lead to headaches and there are roads that lead to enjoyment. in this hobby its garanteed at some point that both these roads will cross paths even if you know what your doing, or what your systems doing.

I agree with this to a point. Eric Borneman is a perfect example of doing everything right and still something out of his control happened. Hurricanes happen, diseases aren't going away, bleaching is occuring. However, it can be easily stated that those with patience are those with more roads of success. Why hurry up for disaster to happen now- you are only asking for the road of headaches. We all know "nothing good happens fast in a reef tank."


observations and experience show that you can take a larger piece of established reef, transplant it into a younger system and it matures quicker than starting fresh via seeding with a cup of established sand.

Moving/transfering a currently established system into another tank is not an example of setting up a brand new tank in a matter of a few days or weeks. I am speaking of tanks where everything is new.


im never going to say your wrong, i totally respect your option, you air on the side of caution, which is great, and your healthy tanks are your testamont to the fact that your doing it right .


How could you not be cautious when you are pulling fragile resources out of the oceans? Give it time and there will be strict regulations and only certain people will be allowed to have reef tanks. Only a matter of time. In many ways, I want that to happen especially on the LFS end, but it can be very bad at the same time and many people will suffer. People need to take their own responsibility now so we don't have to deal with regulations later. Properly cycling a tank is one way we can harvest less out of the oceans.


as for stability in three weeks instead of 12 weeks. we are always going to be the observers here, nature shows us through our own inventions to test nature. its a cause & effect hobby!

Lets leave the testing up to the researchers. We can't afford for every person to try setting up a tank in a few days just to see what happens. Observe as much as you can, absorb all the knowledge you can, and do this to the best of your abilities- that is my challenge. When people say, "I think my tank is ready" ... you aren't ready... what does it hurt to wait longer? Are you really passionate about the hobby or are you here for the look of the tank?


their are 3 stages to learning in this hobby,
1) we have principles to grasp & make sence of,
2) we then try to apply these principles to build our creations,
3) and somewhere,,, and at some point in the near distant future we really start to understand the how and the why and thats where the clarity sets in, starting the natral progression towards a never ending thurst for information.

My belief: There is a saying that i saw at a skydive launch pad. "Learn from others mistakes, because u wont get the chance to make them yourselves"

This isn't as extreme as skydiving, but the principles sound!
noobs should make a real effort to track down a tank buddy to learn off before they even think of getting a system of their own , watch and do the maintenance, learn the equiptment needed, the needs of the animals they keep.
In the meantime they can see what works, buy right equiptment along the way, and learn some of the pit falls that can be avoided, but above all, really start to understand the why & how

I agree ;)
The reef hobby is extremely important and the knowledge we are learning every day helps us learn how to keep the reefs in the ocean that much longer. Our hobby both saves and destroys the reefs. Lets try and do our part to help the reefs stay around for many years.

Thanks for your opinions. I'm not getting fiesty or anything- I'm just too passionate *if there is such a thing.* :)

I feel her post is in direct response to my method mentioned in different threads. We happen to disagree on the waiting period for the "Cycle" to complete and the addition of critters.



Yeah somewhat and I wanted this here to link to other threads for those people who need help understanding the importance of patience.
My lunch is over and I will have to respond at another time. :)

I'll pitch in my 2 cents worth and say I fall somewhere in the middle. We do have a ethical obligation to give the creatures in our care a stable, healthy environment. This hobby is expensive and personally I want to optimize my fish budget. I do believe that impatience is the number one enemy for many people in this hobby. On the other hand there are people like Dick who have been keeping salts for decades and have the EXPERIENCE (and tank size) to push things. He knows more than I ever will. The guy that really worries me is the one who says "I just got my first nano and it cycled in 1.65 hours using the latest wonder product that I bought at the pet store in the mall. I went back that afternoon and bought a Dory and a Nemo and an anemone. Doesn't my tank look beautiful?"

I am new to reefs but have had a lot of fresh and old school saltwater FO experience. I read for a couple of months before I bought anything. Then I found a bargain on a used set-up and bought it. I waited until I found a guy who was tearing down his tank and bought all of my LS & LR from him. Since it was from an established tank I never saw a cycle. I added hermits and snails after 3 weeks with no change in parameters. I waited 2 more weeks and added my first fish. Now, 16 weeks into my tank, I have a clean up crew, 2 chromis, a maroon clown, a fire fish, and a six line wrasse. This was a comfortable pace for me.

I believe in testing and in observation. If all my parameters are dead on and my critters don't look/act right I am going to dig to find out what is wrong. This is another reason that I want to research what is normal before I buy. If my critters look great but my params are off I am going to correct them. file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/All/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg

just a quick responce of my opinion to setting up a tank gwen, i sit down & sketch a detailed plan, arm myself to the teeth with information that over time i may have forgotten, and information on how to build components so i can spend my money on more important items.
once or twice a week at the max for testing since im familiar with the cycle proccess. buy the highest grade products i can afford and stick to a strict stocking chart. of yeah, & i quarintine everything.........no exceptions!!!

superman quick rundown:cool:

this post seems very opinionated. i agree with various points from various posters. but it's a subject we best stay un-bias about. None of us are researchers, or scientist, or published like the delbeek, sprung, borneman, tullock, etc, etc. and even then. you know what i've noticed from all researchers, scientist, and reef-lovers alike.

they all have their opinions based off their experience.

and if i cycled a tank in 1 week and did it successfully over and over and over again over 100 times. why would i want to change that? (saying that everything went perfectly to plan) instead of being bias on our experiences and knowledge. let's set up a good foundation for a BEGINNERS cycle period. because we have our ways. but BEGINNERS don't have their own way. and their way will be the wrong way if not guided by others.

now they come to TR to learn and we have a difference in opinion on cycling. that's perfectly fine. but i want the BEGINNERS like i once was to know a steady proven cycle (safest) for them to follow. and i believe we can all agree on that.

i'll leave it up the to experts like gwen or dick or whoever wants to take a shot at it to post a CYCLING FOR BEGINNERS the safe and easy way. however long it takes, be it 8 weeks or 8 months. whichever you think a new hobbyist with the eagerness to follow our kind advice can handle. so we don't have to lose any specimen of corals from the world. or a beautiful fish.

but then again i speak my words from my bias opinioin. my opinion is to try not to be opinionated in a hobby that will be forever changing. i mean back in the 80's undergravel filters were the way. but now we know it's impossible to have a stable system with UGF. but again some people will try and accomplish it. but we as a community will tell others to stray away from such techniques.

trying to make a point but not be hated for it. this hobby will continue to change. and with the way technology is and the ease of knowledge at your finger tips. we will be learning and discovering new things at such a fast pace. we are bound to find faster ways to cycle. and better ways to feed. and better lighting solutions. etc,etc.

or... we might learn from all the technology and knowledge that... we just have to let nature do it's thing, even in our aquariums and just enjoy our hobby together.

i am going to take up for the "noob"....whether one is talking about substrates, cycling times, stocking lists, lighting or whatever, a noob only has the information given to them (which is usually the local LFS)

what it took for me to get to the internet was disaster....not because i didn't care about the critters that i had purchased (the tears that have been shed could fill an ocean), but because i didn't know....i was listening to a shop that has been here forever...

at this point, i have spent hour upon hour reading, reading, reading....and what have i come up with?....everyone has their own way of dong things and no one way is going to guarentee you success....are there basic guidelines to be followed, sure there are, but no two tanks are the same and each should be treated as such

the best we can do as noobs is read as much as possible, evaluate the sources, and form a sound game plan.....when in doubt, ask....and ask again, if needed

thanks guys..
im not going to write a 5 page post, even though i could.

what i am going to do is podcast my thoughts on this.

i think it is a great debate, and there are many valid points on all sides.
i will try to summarize these points for the show.

im going to come out now and say that my opinion falls in line with what Dick is stating, with many of the same reasons which i will discuss, but, if someone with a differencing opinion would want to come out the show, we can have a healthy debate on the topic.. :)
if not i will will get the show recorded for this week.. (which is our milestone show number 50.. :D)

So, can I join too?? :-)

I have to admit that the first tank that I set up, I was very naive and very impatient. Although I had been reading a book all along and was very keen on getting any advice that people could give to me, I had just moved to another country where I didn't speak the language and didn't even know that reef forums existed! Now that's a nOOb for you! At any rate, I had good advice from the person that I bought my setup and live rock from...he is a hobbyist-turned-retailer. I had live rock that probably suffered with our move from Germany to Sweden, but still got it into the tank relatively soon. I actually let it cycle for probably two months, but was testing continuously. I didn't really know what I was doing or how long to wait, I just knew that the tank looked ugly and though that I needed something to eat the algae.

To make a long story short - I don't believe that there's a set number of days/weeks/months that EVERY tank should be allowed to cycle. BUT, I do very strongly believe that there should be more information out there to beginners and there should be some standards for them. And if that includes testing the tank cycle in order to learn the whole salt water chemistry, then I think that's a great way for them to begin (it also helps to curtail the impatience...something to do!).

I also think that the cycle is HIGHLY dependent on the size of tank (as Dave says "solution to polution is dilution!"), substrate or none, live or dead rock and the quality of all of the above.

Having said that....I wish you all a great day! :-)

going out, buying tests and using them, helped me to better understand how my tank works......letting the LFS do the testing for me was a mistake....i never really understood what they were testng for and it kind of removed me from the whole process.....i highly recommend testing, especially for us noobs

the only thing that really makes sense is cheng21tang's idea of putting together something for beginners. but don't be so long-winded, no beginner will be able to stay awake reading all these debates and quotes from authors they have never heard of.

i am going to put it together, and will do my best not to be boring as heck.. ;)

going out, buying tests and using them, helped me to better understand how my tank works......letting the LFS do the testing for me was a mistake....i never really understood what they were testing for and it kind of removed me from the whole process.....i highly recommend testing, especially for us noobs Oh, dreams, I could not agree more!!! I am so proud of you for making that statement. I see people bringing in water samples for LFS to test. What a waste of time and money (Yes, I know it's free but, the consequence is expensive.) If you are going to be a reef aquarist you MUST raise your standards to becoming a professional aquarist for several reasons. First, because these animals are precious. Second, as Gwen stated in the beginning, "You are playing God to fragile critters that were taken from the ocean."Even if you are buying aqua cultured specimens. Hopefully, you are supporting aquaculture enterprises. They are the future of your hobby. Put your money there!

Reefbaby, I don't believe that there's a set number of days/weeks/months that EVERY tank should be allowed to cycle. That's an accurate statement Christi. Every tank is going to be different, because of the many variables inevitably encountered. Each aquarist is going to take our information and adapt his own variation based on his understanding and financial ability to set up his reef. Their cycle may be in two weeks, four weeks or 12 weeks. They must test along the way to learn when the cycle event happens.

fat walrus"no beginner will be able to stay awake reading all these debates and quotes from authors they have never heard of"I sincerely hope you are wrong. The biggest mistake Newbies make is to not do their research. If you are a Newbie reading this, read every word!!!

i am going to put it together, and will do my best not to be boring as heck.. Please, do so Rob. If one person grasps the concept of researching before leaping it will be worth the effort.

Thanks, for everyone's input into this important thread.

Dick

i'm i'm one year into my research on keeping aquariums. and i've read everything i can get my hands on. and every thread that has something to do with our underwater friends. reading everything is not enough. being caution and noting all of what we do or put into our tanks is the best way to accumulate knowledge for the well being of this hobby.

over one year and i still don't have my tank.... i'm sad.... but it's okai no rush. waiting for the podcast ROB

Christi:
To make a long story short - I don't believe that there's a set number of days/weeks/months that EVERY tank should be allowed to cycle. BUT, I do very strongly believe that there should be more information out there to beginners and there should be some standards for them. And if that includes testing the tank cycle in order to learn the whole salt water chemistry, then I think that's a great way for them to begin (it also helps to curtail the impatience...something to do!) I think this hits the nail on the head!


Wendy:
going out, buying tests and using them, helped me to better understand how my tank works......letting the LFS do the testing for me was a mistake....i never really understood what they were testing for and it kind of removed me from the whole process.....i highly recommend testing, especially for us noobs Absolutely! To really understand your tank you have to have a grasp of the water chemistry involved. I've read literally 100's of posts that state "The lfs said my parameters are great" but the poster doesn't know what the values are. Many people are afraid of the chemistry and are happy abdicate the responsibility. I do occasionally take a sample into my favorite lfs and have them test it just to verify my results.

Rob, this is a GREAT show idea. I bet it could become the most downloaded podcast!

The actual act of buying in every aspect of our life sometimes numb's the senses to the point that sometimes we forget the most fragile rule.
" The hard line is - losses are completly unexceptable "
if something dies, its a shame we are quick to replace it with something else.
As with anything ,there are guidlines to follow in this hobby, if learning the most common and proven path leads to success so be it, just as long as we dont lose site of compasion & understanding for the animals we are manipulating. Because without this fragile rule the reefs will be so devoid of life that our children wont even know they existed.

cheng, over one year and i still don't have my tank.... I'm sadIt sounds as though you are having to practice patience just to get into the reefing hobby. I commend you for joining the forum and participating in the discussions. You are learning much and will be rewarded for it.

CarmieJo, Absolutely! To really understand your tank you have to have a grasp of the water chemistry involved. I've read literally 100's of posts that state "The lfs said my parameters are great" but the poster doesn't know what the values are.Good point CarmieJo. They also don't understand what they mean.

veriann, " The hard line is - losses are completely unexceptable "
(and)
As with anything ,there are guidlines to follow in this hobby, if learning the most common and proven path leads to success so be it, just as long as we dont lose site of compasion & understanding for the animals we are manipulating. While I agree losses are unexceptable, they also are inevitable. We are dealing with living critters that are subject to all kinds of maladies many of which kill quickly. It is our responsibility to provide the best home possible within our means. There in lies the problem. Many hobbyists refuse to buy certain equipment to lesson the cost of this hobby. I've said it for years, "The true cost of this hobby is not the equipment! It is the continuous replacement of livestock due to premature death caused by the lack of proper equipment designed to provide a safe environment for our charges." We truly are playing god when it comes to keeping any living pet, wet or dry, because we are manipulating them.

Dick

when someone breeds the toughness inherant in triggerfish and eels and crosses that with the exotics, & someone makes synthetic corals that look real, for those that are the in it for the look without the expense. that day will be a happy day!
its been a great insight this thread. i have found through this thread that i dont sit on the fence with my animals, that i take a harder stance than i was willing to admit

walrus, i read anything i can get my hands on......i spend hours surfing the web & visiting forums

dick said:.......We truly are playing god when it comes to keeping any living pet, wet or dry, because we are manipulating them.

for me, this is probably the hardest part of the hobby....trying to be tolerant

i can handle the patience, all the research, the money thing freaks me out, but i know that if i want to provide the proper environment for these critters, i am going to have to be willing to invest time & money

but, i have low tolerance for i would consider abuse....an example:...there is a guy we met that does tank maintenence...when i told him i was setting up my tank for a mandarin, he laughed at me....then, proceeded to tell me how cheap they are to just replace them when they die....well, that in unacceptable in my book & being new to all this, i was not sure if it is even proper to say anything (is it?)....anyways, any respect of his knowledge that i had went out the window at that very moment...

that is just one example, but you get my point

i think the topic might be straying a bit, so let me try and rope it back in...
i think the real question here is, what do you guys think about a delaying adding livestock after a cycle.

so lets not set it at 12 weeks. but lets say, your cycle completed in 4 weeks (in this example) would there be any benefit to a new hobbyist setting up a new tank, in waiting 2, 3, or 4 weeks after the cycle completes before adding live stock.

i know you dont "have to" but i think what Gwen was really after is, lets open our heads and see if there could be a reasonable benefit to such actions

lets take this to more of a "what if" approach and see what we come up with...

sorry for straying OT, rob:-)

sorry for straying OT, rob:-)
oh, dont worry about it.. conversation is good, just want to rope things up a bit thats all...

ask Gwen, when the site was young, i was a FREAK about keeping things organized and on topic.
i am much better now... ;)

it's not only what are the benefits of waiting a couple more weeks when the cycle is finished. but also what could be the downsides of it. like with bacteria (dick's point) that's doing the nitrification. they need ammonia, and nitrite to live, and even nitrates if you have a denitrification colony (DSB). waiting 2-3 weeks after a cycle means not eating for 2-3 weeks. or at least not getting enough food. i mean if you didn't feed your fish for 2-3 weeks they would be pretty upset.

what's better waiting a couple of weeks. maybe only a couple of days. but how long after a cycle is too long? and is waiting even necessary? cuz when a cycle is done... it's DONE. no BUTS about it. i mean let's make sure all the test results are right on the money and double checked.

i've heard of a quote/comment about the hobby. that we're in the hobby to watch fish, not water. and i mean when we do get done and checked all safety issues. what's keeping us from getting those friends into the water?

what a topic. anyways, good day today in california. so hot.

Regardless if you add fish as soon as your tank has cycled or you wait you are still going to have to add livestock slowly. How much depends on many factors such as tank size, amount of LS/LR and if you are running a skimmer.
The other problem with impatience is that since you are unsure of yourself you add something cheap like a damsel. Then he terrorizes your tank and you have to tear down your aquascape to catch him.

what's better waiting a couple of weeks. maybe only a couple of days. but how long after a cycle is too long? and is waiting even necessary? cuz when a cycle is done... it's DONE. no BUTS about it. i mean let's make sure all the test results are right on the money and double checked.That's my point. In the old days, of which I am a product :D , we had to wait a long time, 12 weeks was common some times longer.

"Regardless if you add fish as soon as your tank has cycled or you wait you are still going to have to add livestock slowly. How much depends on many factors such as tank size, amount of LS/LR and if you are running a skimmer."You are absolutely correct CarmiJo. If I didn't make that clear earlier I apologize. Because the cycle is over doesn't mean you can add a full bio load. You simply must add things a couple at a time and test, test, test to see if you get a mini cycle. It's possible because the opposite of waiting too long could happen. Your bacteria colonies may not be able to handle too big a bio load all at once. You could very well have a death do to Ammonia poisoning. It takes a few days for the bacteria population to reproduce enough and adjust to the new level of ammonia & Nitrite production. Go slow, you will be rewarded.

Dick

i am having mini-cycle as we speak and nothing is in the tank, nothing but dead rock...i was a little surprised by that, but it does show what a delicate system it is

I know I am new to this whole reef tank think, but I think it is logical to assume waiting a few weeks after the cycle is beneficial. Wouldn't you say that the longer you wait the more bacteria and other goodies grow? I was amazed at what two weeks would do to Copapods. Mine went from pinhead size (I used my pin head to actually measure them :) ) to almost. 1/4" in that time. That tells me that things are establishing themselves. Now I am sure at somepoint, they will run out of stuff to eat, but with the LR I would think that would take a while.

Also, I wouldn't think you could put a sand sifting goby in the tank until you have a good base full of stuff for him to sift.

Like I said, I really don't have a clue, it just soulds logical to me.

I know I am new to this whole reef tank think, but I think it is logical to assume waiting a few weeks after the cycle is beneficial. Wouldn't you say that the longer you wait the more bacteria and other goodies grow?

not necessary true. the thing i was trying to state like dick mention earlier is that. once a cycle is done. let's say monday. then you wait 2 weeks. that good bacteria that was in the tank will start dying off. like when you first throw in your LR. that starts the cycle. we have die-off and all that goodie stuff.
ammonia spikes---->
nitrite spikes-------->
nitrate goes up-----> boom water change DONE WITH CYCLE
DSB------------------> NITRATES go down... stable below 10ppm (let's say)

now you have all these good bacteria already grown. boom don't feed them. don't produce enough waste (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate). another boom, now we have the colonies dying off cuz you can't feed them.

basically it's fine to wait a bit. but you can't wait to long. i have to actually look this up. how long it takes nitrosomas, denitrify bacteri, etc, etc to die off. i think it's like a week or so. i'll get back to that.

kinda did drag abit of other stuff into the works here, but hey, thats good banter!
hey, correct me if im mistaken, but im thinking this thread is about done with different view points, it all reaches the same conclusion anyways. if the likes of gwen wait 12 weeks so be it, if the likes of amp wait till he see's the 0 meter so be it as well. . it looks like we have thrown every angle at this topic! at the end of the day, the testing of the water parameters especially when it applies to the noobs learning curve is a must.
As for the more experienced among us---the thread has been fruitful with percieved facts......you know what signs your looking for to proceed to the next level, best leave it to a "each to their own" situation!

I rather tend to think that we're talking about two different subjects here
1. When are the water paramaters (i.e. NH4, NH3 etc) safe (and I would like to emphasize that in case you didn't notice) :-) to put in livestock/clean up crew?

2. When is there a sufficient food source for some specific pod-eating species that we would like to add to our system? as well as When is the number of copepods/amphipods sufficient for participating in detritus clean up?

I would beg to differ and dare to suggest that these might be two very different time points. Some fish, such as mandarins, absolutely require that there is a large population of pods to feed on, otherwise they will starve to death. So, obviously these aren't a proper species to add to a newly-established tank.

I think that both theories are accurate, but I think they're accurate for different reasons!

There...that's my 2 cents! :-)

oh reefbaby!...that is exactly right.....yes, my tank may be ready to house a damsel, but it is going to be at least a year before i can house a mandarin....great point!

there are so many factors to consider

just when u thought it was safe to go back in the water, RB pulls out a valid point.
next time gadget, nexxxxt time!:neutral:

Reefbaby,

Your opinion is always worth much more than 2 cents. Thanks for contributing.

1. When are the water paramaters (i.e. NH4, NH3 etc) safe (and I would like to emphasize that in case you didn't notice) :smile: to put in livestock/clean up crew?IMHO, setting the tank up following the latest established guidelines, eg, LR, LS, sump/refugium, etc, and testing for NH4 NH3 etc, when the cycle has taken place and not before it is safe to add clean up crew but not fish. The reason, not fish, is because the bacteria that established during the cycle are not at a sufficient level of population to handle the bio load that fish put on the new system. Yes, some people throw in a Damsel, continue the cycle event, later wishing to God they hadn't listened to the LFS guy. As you add "things" more NH4, NH3 are added to the system and the population of nitrifying bacteria grows to meet the NEW demand. If you are TESTING along the way and you have good test kits, you may be able to track or plot the rise and fall of the mini cycles that are happening. That's why I advocate nearly daily testing. You simply MUST know what is happening in your reef system.

2. When is there a sufficient food source for some specific pod-eating species that we would like to add to our system? as well as When is the number of copepods/amphipods sufficient for participating in detritus clean up?This is an excellent point Christi. I didn't gear my original post toward Newbies (Noobs, but I prefer to call them Newbies) that couldn't or wouldn't follow direct instructions. They tend to get sidetracked by the "I want it now" mentality and get in over their head. Thanks for pointing out these very important points.

Dick

Originally posted by Amphibious
Your opinion is always worth much more than 2 cents. Thanks for contributing.
Thanks Dick! http://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/love/luxlove.gif

Originally posted by Amphibious
The reason, not fish, is because the bacteria that established during the cycle are not at a sufficient level of population to handle the bio load that fish put on the new system.

I completely agree!

btw...still haven't gotten an email from me??

Christi,

Not yet.

Here's a newbie willing to subject myself to scrutiny:

I tested every 4 days, but did not start testing until after the first week. I assumed nothing interesting would happen the first week. Oops! With "cured" LR, my cycle occurred fast (~2weeks) that I only saw the tail end of the nitrite spike at day 7! Now I wish I tested daily to more accurately chart the process...

As far as the bacteria having enough die-off to feed on, doesn't the cycle bring the tank to the level where the bacteria can keep up with the current production rate of Ammonia and subsequent bi-products? I assume that does not mean that die-off products are necessarily diminishing; Couldn't the rate of ammonia production still be increasing (albeit at a manageable rate)? Wouldn't the amount of time it takes for die-off to completely decay be based on how cured the LR was when added to the tank?

I waited two weeks after the cycle to add half a cleanup crew and a Spotted Cardinal, but I really have no idea where the perfect balance between diminishing die-off and increased fish bioload should occur. This reminds me of Indiana Jones replacing the idol with an equal measure of sand...

I agree with Gwen about giving some extra time for stabilizing temperature. I ran my cycle + 1 week without the Nano's lights, and then - like a newbie - suddenly turned them on to discover that I needed to stabilize the tank's 3.5 degree F temp swings AND I hadn't decided what temperature to maintain my tank. I added another pump, ditched the heater and cracked the lid to maintain 76.5<->78.5 F. I am still not happy with nano's poor ventilation, so I will be making some minor mods. Bottom line is: I should have resolved all this BEFORE adding any inhabitants.

-Scott

and i think this is one of Gwens main point.. that you need to get all this covered before you start adding live stock.

that said, how long is to long..
well as long as you are adding a food source, you tank should maintain as a stable balance indefinitely, are there great direct benefits to waiting that long, i dont see them.. is it bad, no, go for it. as long as there is a food source it should be fine.
i do see this extra time being good for newbies to get used to and learn things they havent experienced yet, so in that its a good idea..

more about waiting after the first cycle phase.
if you have a tank, that has mature LR, there will be loads of live that will live and die on that and algae that will live reproduce and die. this process will continue as long as there is light and a food source. it will not stay self contained, you have to intervene, by adding light, adn adding food. but this will allow it to sty stable.
doing this your bio filtration (bacteria and such) will read a level point and will not go up. it will stay at this level until there is a larger bio load to support the larger bacteria population.

so in short, about the 12 week thing.
should it be required for everyone? no probably not.
should it be required for newbies? it might be a real go idea to have a newbie take extra time as needed to learn and get familiar with things they haven't experienced. such as adjusting temp, preparing new SW, balancing PH, adjusting for evaporation. while most of this can be accomplished in a few weeks, if you haven't learn this by the time your initial cycle phase has completed, they yes, you should wait.
Is there harm in waiting? no, again, as long as you provide a food and light source your tank will continue to stay stable.
do you still have to add live stock slow? absolutely, no matter how long you wait, your bio filtration/bacteria, will always have to adjust to the new bio load, you cant rush these things.
should you test during your cycle? sorry, but this one i have to say yes on. i cant see anything bad coming from testing during your cycle, and many things that are good. i say yes. you will learn how to use your test kits. you will get to confirm you have a good test kit, and you get to see first hand whats going on in your tank during this initial cycle phase

thats my story and im sticking to it.. :D

It's stuck Rob! :-) Wanna make a sticky? :-)

Ok back to this thread- don't have time to read the entire thread, but I will eventually.


My 135 "cycled" in two weeks. That means the population of nitrifying bacteria present in the LR and LS is sufficient to convert the available nutrients. If we don't add critters for ten weeks the population of nitrifying bacteria will die back because of the lack of food. Then when you add critters you may very well have another "cycle" because the nitrifying bacteria population may be too low to convert the available nutrients from the newly added critters. A dangerous position to put yourself into.


How will the population of nitrifying bacteria die back when you already have a small ecosystem going? You have so much life in there already and that in itself can live awhile without adding food. Some people setup just LR tanks- don't add anything else and they sit back and watch what happens.

When you do add critters, you must go slow- everything in a reef tank must be done slow. Waiting 12 weeks, and then buying lots of critters/corals would be a bad idea. Go slow and balance and you will be ok *IMO*.



I'm familiar with and respect Nilsen and Fossa for the most part. However, I totally disagree with them on this one and here's why.

Saltwater, for the most part, is crystal clear. Ammonia, and the Nitrogen compounds we are trying to eliminate or reduce in our aquariums is not visible to the naked eye. That is why we must use test kits designed to bring their levels in our aquariums to light. For the above quoted authors to make that statement and for you to advocate boggles my mind. While staring daily at a tank full of LR and LS what is it you are expecting to see??? You cannot "see" the cycle except with test kits.


The authors are just saying to put testing aside as it's not a high priority- water quality changes over time and I believe something *not sure what-water is maturing for the better* is still happening even after a cycle and that is why we should wait. There is no such thing as waiting too long. Yes n00bs need to learn how test kits work- yes yes yes, but u still need to wait. Not to mention, most of us don't know how the equipment works 100%. And all those other things that take a least 12 weeks to figure out.

Personally chemistry has boring written all over it and watching a cycle doesn't sound exciting- if you're into that, then sure test daily and "watch the cycle".. if not... do like me and watch the diatom bloom and all the icky stuff growing. Once that's happened, I know "the cycle" has taken place and I keep waiting. Do test before adding critters because the levels need to be correct.

Many people are reporting hair algae as apart of the cycle- if that's the case in your tank, we gotta get that out before moving on.


This was addressed above. I'll just reiterate, if you don't feed the bacteria they will die back. This could lead to a mini-cycle and potential problems when you do add fish 10 weeks down the road. And, your doing more than learning how to use your test kits. You will witness the cycle event. It's very important in your learning curve to "see" a cycle as it happens.

If you add 5 fish after a cycle, that is bad. You should be building up slowly and working towards ONE fish. Your cleanup crew that u slowly added will help you get to this point.

Like I stated above: the small ecosystem is established and leveled off- all is good there. Slowly add a cleanup crew and allow that to level off. Feed the tank when necessary.

As far as "witnessing the cycle" - boring *to me.* I watch the diatom bloom- I like watching stuff grow- I just don't find it necessary to "see" the cycle in terms of test kits, but no harm done if you want too. Also helps you confirm that your test kits do work, which they prolly do if they have Salifert written on them. :D



I agree but, perhaps with a different understanding. In the beginning of a new tank the water, for all practical purposes, is essentially sterile. At the completion of the cycle, in whatever time frame you subscribe too, the water is at it's best. Over time the water does change, it degrades. That's why we use skimmers, UV sterilizers, refugiums, carbon, etc, and advocate regular water changes, all just to try and keep the water quality up to par..

Water quality is always changing- yes, but becoming more mature over time- once we have learned to give our tank what it needs, we have learned to achieve good water quality. Most n00bs don't start with the right equipment- don't have a skimmer or at least a good one, using tap water- etc, etc. I believe our water gets better over time because we are learning how to make it better. We have learned what to add and when, etc.


Gwen, thank you for starting this thread and allowing me to communicate my thoughts. You've been a wonderful new friend and I love you. http://www.theculturedreef.com/01F0B5~1.GIF

I love ya too :D

Allow the thread to continue- already ran 15 minutes over my lunch to get this post up, but I didn't wanna think I abandoned the thread!! he he
I will read the entire thread eventually- I promise!

How will the population of nitrifying bacteria die back when you already have a small ecosystem going?

Because every living thing, even bacteria, needs food to live. If Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates are zero then there's not enough food to support the population of nitrifying bacteria. It's time to add some critters to increase the bioload so that those bacteria don't die off.

When you do add critters, you must go slow- everything in a reef tank must be done slow. Waiting 12 weeks, and then buying lots of critters/corals would be a bad idea. Go slow and balance and you will be ok *IMO*.

Gwen - since Dick's http://www.cybergifs.com/emphasis/GoneFishing.gif, I hope he won't mind that I speak in his place here. I think that Dick's always been a proponent of going slow in terms of adding livestock. He's mentioned that many times. I think by him saying that once the cycle has taken place, he doesn't mean that you can then start with a fully stocked tank. First some clean up crew and eventually build up the livestock numbers.

Personally chemistry has boring written all over it and watching a cycle doesn't sound exciting- if you're into that, then sure test daily and "watch the cycle".. if not... do like me and watch the diatom bloom and all the icky stuff growing. Once that's happened, I know "the cycle" has taken place and I keep waiting. Do test before adding critters because the levels need to be correct.
Personally, I think that if someone is an experienced reef keeper and knows what will take place in a cycle and already has reliance in their test kits because they've tested them before on previous or other systems, then I think it's perfectly fine for them to draw the line between testing every few days or testing when they think the cycle is "over" so that they can start stocking.
However, I would recommend all newbies to test through their cycle in order to become familar with their system and the chemistry therein. There are many positive aspects to this and no negative ones that I can think of: 1) they find out whether their test kits are working properly and whether they can correctly read them; 2) they can learn a little more about the chemistry of their tanks and what a "cycle" means; 3) they can observe (in parrallel to testing) what's happening within their tank and will later be much better at identifying problem symptoms within their systems; 4) they can discover the chemistry really isn't as boring as they once thought it to be! http://www.world-of-smilies.com/html/images/smilies/sonstige/eclipsee_Victoria.gif


Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibious
Gwen, thank you for starting this thread and allowing me to communicate my thoughts. You've been a wonderful new friend and I love you.

I love ya too

And I love all of you!
http://www.cybergifs.com/hearts/dogballoon.gif

Rob and everyone,

I just listened to the podcast, great job! I thought I would add my 0.02 (ok maybe .25) to this thread.

EDIT: 0.5: There is definitely no one way to cycle a tank and to try to set a time limit is not really practical. Different strokes for different folks. Although I advocate waiting as long as possible to learn patience and careful selection of equipment and livestock.

1. I'm a firm believer in test kits for the cycle and monitoring the tank. Sure it is much easier (and cheaper) to not use them, but with the complicated chemical reactions going on in the tank during a cycle, I think it is an excellent idea to try to follow it with test kits, if only to recognize where you are in the nitrogen cycle and to get use to the idea of trying to diagnose problems, or at least narrow them down, with test kits.

2. The nitrogen cycle is only the first of many cycles in our little boxes. Eric Borneman wrote up a nice little thread about what happens after the testable nitrogen cycle is finished:
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic23945-9-1.aspx

3. Due to my battle with Cirolanids, my tank went without fish, shrimp, etc for basically a year. I've noticed an amazing number of things in that span of time.

4. Without any predators (no fish, shrimp, hermit crabs) and minimal corals, my tank cycle progressed and I now have a tank TEEMING with copepods, amphipods, mysis, etc. Someone in this thread was asking the benefits of waiting after the testable nitrogen cycle is done. I think Eric's thread above covers that well, but I also want to add that I've never seen so many "pods" and bugs swimming around in any of my other tanks that I added fish and shrimp and hermit crabs to much earlier. I now have only two clownfish that don't make a dent in the "bug" or "pod" population. Patience is a virtue.

5. If people are concerned about the bacteria dying off after the initial cycle, it should be remembered that the lights over the tank are providing energy for photosynthesis and many algae/corals use that light and then are eaten or release waste products that the bacteria can use. You can always add a small cleanup crew (they generate ammonia) and just a little bit of flake food or small piece of shrimp to add a fresh carbon and ammonia source while you plan out your purchases carefully. It is fun to watch various bugs and starfish devour the shrimp/flake food, at least for me :D

Brian

Because every living thing, even bacteria, needs food to live. If Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates are zero then there's not enough food to support the population of nitrifying bacteria. It's time to add some critters to increase the bioload so that those bacteria don't die off.

The light is the key here. Ever see those Ecospheres???
http://www.greenfeet.com/ecospheres.html
You can't feed it- and the same thing will happen in your tank- sure things will level off- if you start with 50 bristles, there may be only enough food for 10, for example. You have your own ecosystem and really you don't need to feed, but you can. I have to admit that I was taking bristles from my big tank and throwing them in my nano during the cycle AND the worst part is that I was feeding them, since I didn't want their population leveling off, I wanted it to increase.


EDIT: 0.5: There is definitely no one way to cycle a tank and to try to set a time limit is not really practical. Different strokes for different folks. Although I advocate waiting as long as possible to learn patience and careful selection of equipment and livestock.

Wait, wait, wait is the only message I am trying to convey- you certainly can't wait too long and too little can harm the balance- that's my main point. If all n00bs waited at least 12 weeks, I think as Eric stated we would get much less threads that start like this: "I just bought a coral and its dying and my tank is two months old"

I am not trying to set a time limit- just recommending a wait of AT LEAST 12 weeks- Eric didn't state a time limit either, but suggests waiting a few months. And you are also advocating "waiting"

Brian- thanks so much for the EB article and your input- much appreciated!! EB can explain much better the stuff happening after the nitrogen cycle than I can- all I know is that "stuff happens" but can't explain it. Seems like someone here is at least on the same page as I am, which seems to be rare :mrgreen:

Personally, I think that if someone is an experienced reef keeper and knows what will take place in a cycle and already has reliance in their test kits because they've tested them before on previous or other systems, then I think it's perfectly fine for them to draw the line between testing every few days or testing when they think the cycle is "over" so that they can start stocking.
However, I would recommend all newbies to test through their cycle in order to become familar with their system and the chemistry therein. There are many positive aspects to this and no negative ones that I can think of: 1) they find out whether their test kits are working properly and whether they can correctly read them; 2) they can learn a little more about the chemistry of their tanks and what a "cycle" means; 3) they can observe (in parrallel to testing) what's happening within their tank and will later be much better at identifying problem symptoms within their systems; 4) they can discover the chemistry really isn't as boring as they once thought it to be! http://www.world-of-smilies.com/html/images/smilies/sonstige/eclipsee_Victoria.gif

I absolutely agree!

they can discover the chemistry really isn't as boring as they once thought it to be! http://www.world-of-smilies.com/html/images/smilies/sonstige/eclipsee_Victoria.gif





http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_11_55.gif

he he he, had to do it!!

ya know gwen.. im not a chemistry fanatic either..

and i personally dont get my kicks from chemistry
but what i do get my kicks from, is understanding my system as a whole, and how chemistry plays into that helps make it all interesting.

ya know gwen.. im not a chemistry fanatic either..

and i personally dont get my kicks from chemistry
but what i do get my kicks from, is understanding my system as a whole, and how chemistry plays into that helps make it all interesting.

so elaborate a litte more- what about chemistry gets u excited?? I need help getting excited about chemistry!!

Keep in mind that we aren't on the same geek level!! he he http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_37.gif

I'd rather stare at my tank for 2 hours a day and look for things wrong than drag out the test kits- if I think there might be a problem, I may test to see what's going on.... if I see cyano or hair algae- I don't need a test kit to tell me my nitrates are outta wack and I'm feeding too much!! Observation is the way to go for me.

Hey! That smiley looks like me.

thats not exactly what i meant..
it was more that understanding some of the chemistry is exciting because it im excited to understand how the overall system works.

i really dont know that much about the chemistry, but i try... i just dont have a knack for it

me neither, glad u understand Rob- still sounds boring.

ha ha Jimm!!

Well it does! I'm serious. I'm always pushing my glasses up like that. I must be geek.

I concluded that chemistry wasn't exciting when I couldn't blow things up with my chemistry set! Even so, I worked in a lab for 5 years doing chemistry. Even if it isn't exciting it is IMPORTANT.

ya know.. i think thats a good way of putting it, at least for me...
it important in understanding the "overall" picture of things

That settles it. I'm not testing anymore! :razz:

Seriously, mixing a few liquids together is not a chemistry experiment or synthesis. We are just taking measurements (like we check our temp probe and hydrometer) and hopefully detecting levels inbalances before they become problems.

With that said, the tedium of testing (and other weekly rituals) can disuade newbies (like myself) from "seeing" the nuances in their biotope. Perhaps testing is best used to confirm/disprove those careful observations.

I love the EB article. Makes me wish I could have established my tank for 6 months without being committed by my spouse and 3 year old daughter.

Oops. I guess Gwen convinced me... :-o

-Scott

BTW: Where does one get the very fancy oversized smileys?

BTW: Where does one get the very fancy oversized smileys?

I use smiley central and also u can do a google search for smileys.