PDA

View Full Version : I need some help ID'ing too.



bychance
09-22-2008, 07:03 AM
CarmieJo offered that this is a zoanthid of some sort. Can anyone pin point it exactly?

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b371/bychance/Aquarium/IMG_0003.jpg

And what about this?

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b371/bychance/Aquarium/IMG_0002.jpg

Do either of them require any special care? They came to me hidden on LR i purchased. I don't think I'm quite experienced enough for these type of creatures yet..... I guess It's time I learned.:huh:

Phurst
09-22-2008, 09:45 AM
The first ones definitely appear to be common zoanthids. Nothing really to their care besides good water and plenty of light. the second one I'm not sure about.

Amphibious
09-22-2008, 11:16 AM
I'm leaning toward a sea squirt on the second one. More pictures at different angles would help.

The thing about hitch hikers is, they come in barely surviving the rigorous treatment in collecting, curing, shipping etc, and then we give them a home that at once is toxic. If they live through all this, then they have a fair chance of surviving for a while in our systems. If they survive the near sterile conditions of our reef systems and find a food item they can ingest and digest, then they may reward us with a long life. Many, dare I say most, do not survive and parish if not from the hardship of it all, then starvation. There are things you can do to help them survive.

First is the obvious, keeping your water parameters optimum through testing, water changes and adding the correct additives as needed, not sporadically.

Second, and too often overlooked, is feeding regimen. Many of the more exotic hitch hikers, such as sea squirts, require regular additions of phytoplankton. I know for a fact that most hobbyists never add phyto and some that do, add too little and not often enough.

Dick

bychance
09-22-2008, 02:02 PM
Thanks Phurst & Amphibious!


I'm leaning toward a sea squirt on the second one. More pictures at different angles would help.

I will try and get some other pictures tonight when I get home. This thing has two round openings that it appears to take water in. Every now and then it closes them and quickly reopens them. You can see one of the two openings on the right, in that picture.

There is also a little funky thing growing at the very base of it. I doubt I'll be able to get a picture of that.


Many, dare I say most, do not survive and parish if not from the hardship of it all, then starvation.

I hope I can keep it alive! It's kind of neat....
It looks like it could really use cleaning... If that is even possible...


There are things you can do to help them survive.

First is the obvious, keeping your water parameters optimum through testing, water changes and adding the correct additives as needed, not sporadically.
What about nitrates............ <ugg!>


Second, and too often overlooked, is feeding regimen. Many of the more exotic hitch hikers, such as sea squirts, require regular additions of phytoplankton. I know for a fact that most hobbyists never add phyto and some that do, add too little and not often enough.

Do both of these need the phytoplankton or just the squirt?
Is this something you can get at a LFS?
How often do they need it?

Some directions would be greatly appreciated!
Thank you,

CarmieJo
09-22-2008, 08:01 PM
You can grow your own phyto or buy it at the LFS. Some of my zoas take bits of meaty foods like mysis or Cyclopeeze but others do not. Routinely blowing the rocks off with a turkey baster will put food in suspension in the water column and the zoas will eat that. I've not seen much of any feeding response from mine when I add phyto.

fat walrus
09-22-2008, 11:49 PM
Sea squirts, AKA tunicates are zooplanton feeders. Zoanthids would also appreciate zooplankton. Zoanthids will even take mysis shrimp.

Amphibious
09-23-2008, 07:00 AM
While tunicates (sea squirts) may very well trap an occasional zooplankton, my research on tunicates indicates they are primarily consumers of phytoplankton and bacteria. Here's a quote from Dr. Ron Shimek's article, "Tunicates or Sea Squirts: A Wet Link" found in Reef Keeping magazine.

"Very fine particulate organic material, mostly bacterioplankton or small phytoplankton, is filtered from the water and is caught on the mucous layer lining the branchial basket. Tunicates are awesomely effective suspension-feeders; even small ones can filter hundreds of liters of water per day and remove well over 95% of its bacteria."

If anyone is interested in reading the complete article, it can be found here - "Tunicates or Sea Squirts: A Wet Link" (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-03/rs/index.php)

Dick

bychance
09-23-2008, 07:47 AM
So the sea squirt likes phytoplankton and the zoanthids likes zooplankton. Is there a combo of the two available?

From what I gathered both of these are very small and are stored in water?

Can someone explain the feeding process using these two planktons?

Thank you,

Amphibious
09-23-2008, 12:04 PM
Getting the proper nutrition to all the inhabitants of our reefs can be challenging. One has to be careful in not overfeeding and causing a spike in nutrients bringing on an algae bloom. Another challenge is feeding enough to serve the needs of the various critters we keep. I'm of the belief that most reefers UNDERFEED in fear of OVERFEEDING and our tank inhabitants suffer because of that practice. The coral reefs are awash in something that has been called "marine snow" (MS). I call it "primordial marine gallimaufry" (PMG). In other words, MS and PMG, in the ocean, is a mixture of phytoplankton and zooplankton, in which there is a nearly countless number of different microscopic and macroscopic critters. From different single cell algae (phytoplankton) to the larval stages of corals, shrimp, reef fish, oysters, clams and a host of other things (zooplankton), some of which would be new to science if each were studied and cataloged. How could a hobbyist possibly duplicate that feast? We cannot! BUT!!! There's always a but, isn't there?

What we can do is research food items made available to us by companies in the business of providing different feeds to the aquaculture field. Their food items hold the best promise to a healthy reef system. For many years the feeds available were inadequate or non-existent. But today there is a wide choice of feeds available to anyone wishing to provide their invertebrates and filter feeding critters. Here's what I feed my tank and how I do it.

I have tried many products over the years. To keep this discussion from getting too long, I'm only going to mention the products and method I use, not those that I rejected, for whatever reason.

DISCLAIMER: The following is not recommended to those with inadequate filtering systems to handle the bio-load of such a regimen. You must take into consideration that I can do things that some of you cannot because of my experience, attention to detail, extravagant measures in filtering compared to most and other nuances of this hobby that I take for granted that many of you over look or are unaware of. If you chose to follow this path, I cannot be held responsible for the results your experience, good :) or bad. :(

There are just too many variables involved. This is what works for me and my system. Nothing scientific here just basic ingredients in unmeasured amounts. The KISS method works for me.

The ingredients:

From Reef Nutrition (http://www.reefnutrition.com/):
Phyto Feast
Roti Feast
Arctic Pods

From your favorite LFS:
Frozen Cyclopeze (the freeze dried are worthless in my humble opinion)

Vitamins: (also from your LFS)
Selcon (American Marine, Inc.)
Zoecon (Kent)
Marine-C (Kent)
Vita Chem (Boyd Enterprises, Inc.

Now, The Cultured Reef's secret mixing formula. My "primordial marine gallimaufry", PMG. Remember KISS! I use Reef Nutrition's bottles to hold and keep the mix after everything is blended together (not blended as in blender). After mixing the above compounds I add a few drops of the four vitamins and cap the bottles for mixing. Swirl them a bit and their ready to use. Store in refrigerator and or freezer if not to be used up within a month.

I turn off the main pump that feeds the sump/refugium and feed an amount that mixes in the water column and is quite noticeable for an hour or more. My pump timer turns the pump back on after 30 minutes. I have two Koralia #4s for circulation. That water movement keeps the mix in the water column for the filter feeders to utilize.

One more note on this. In my daily feeding of the fish (frozen brine shrimp, Mysis shrimp, Cyclopeze and Arctic Pods fortified with the 4 vitamins) I add an ounce or two of PMG. This provides a small amount of food for the filter feeders on a daily basis.

So, there you have it. Let the questions or critique begin.

Oh, by the way, bychance, I don't target feed the my zoanthids or any other filter feeders. By providing the PMG in the water column, they seem to get enough to thrive.

Hmm, one more thing, I am not in any way affiliated with Reef Nutrition or your LFS and receive no compensation from either. Although I should be!!! :rotfl:

Dick

bychance
09-23-2008, 12:22 PM
Thanks Dick! A wealth of info!

But... (there's that but).. I don't have the perfect filtering system.
I'm slowly working on it, but it's a long ways off.

What would you instruct your 8 year old to do with his Fisher Price saltwater aquarium?
I am not planning on trying to obtain more of these types of critters for a while. I kind of happen onto them through the live rock. I did kind of grab the live rock w/ some funky stuff on them, but they didn't really show what there were until they were home. I don't have the lights for the zoanthid (which i believe to be a soft coral?). Currently I have it on the highest piece of rock to get as much light as my tank has to offer.

With that said, which of your blend would be the most beneficial to the zoanthid and squirter?

Amphibious
09-23-2008, 12:37 PM
I think in your situation the sea squirt will be the challenge to keep long term. In that case see if your LFS has Reef Nutrition's Phyto Feast or DT's phytoplankton. There are other products on the market too. Ask for a phytoplankton food source.

As far as you zoanthids are concerned, I'd just leave them alone. Zoas seem to do fine with out special foods. I don't know what lights you have but having the zoas up near them may not be the best. Watch their reaction. If they tend not to open up I'd lower them. Another thing about zoas, in my experience they can take a long time to adjust to new conditions. Leaving them put and not disturbing them seems to be a good thing. Once established into the system, then they can be moved around if you want to.

Dick

bychance
09-23-2008, 12:49 PM
Great! Thank you.
I'll pick up some phytoplankton tonight for the squirt.

80% of the zoanthid colony opened up immediately in my tank. They looked like little balls when I was picking out the live rock.

My snail was cleaning the squirt yesterday, which made me a little concerned. I started to remove it, but the squirt was real 'dusty' looking and needed a cleaning and I figured I wasn't always going to be around to keep it off of it, so I let him be and he eventually moved on and the squirt didn't seem to mind.

I am really grateful for all the help I've found on this board! Next time any of you are in the Central Florida area drinks are on me!

Hopefully some day I'll be able to return the favor and help out some poor soul in the same state as I am right now.

Amphibious
09-23-2008, 01:36 PM
Where in FL are you? I'm in Ft. Pierce.

CarmieJo
09-23-2008, 09:59 PM
I would consider zoanthids a low to medium light coral.

bbl_nk
09-23-2008, 10:31 PM
bychance,

That is an awesome attitude! Don't be afraid to join in the conversation, you'd be surprised with what you learn, especially when you have someone like Dick really take the time to help educate us. Suck it up like a "Sea Squirt" and next thing you know, you'll be provinding phytoplankton in the form of information for someone else :)

Amphibious
09-23-2008, 10:44 PM
Thanks for the kind words, Brian.

doctorthompson
09-24-2008, 04:39 PM
I'll pick up some phytoplankton tonight for the squirt.


I'm probably a little late chiming in with this but I'd try a blended ("contains multiple species") phyto product to start with as they'll have the largest variety of particle sizes; and for what it's worth, centrifuge-spun concentrated products like DTs are perfectly fine for this sort of thing. Many planktivores and filter feeders can be quite picky about what size and flavor of plankton they'll capture and even more discerning about what captured particles they will actually eat. (a lesson that everyone who's ever owned a flame scallop has already learned... the hard way, my condolences). Phyto will also feed any existing zooplankton that are in your tank, so you will sometimes see a "feeding response" from zooplankton consuming animals -- they're gobbling up rotifer or copepod sized animals that have been coaxed out of the substrate by the phyto.



My snail was cleaning the squirt yesterday, which made me a little concerned. I started to remove it, but the squirt was real 'dusty' looking and needed a cleaning and I figured I wasn't always going to be around to keep it off of it, so I let him be and he eventually moved on and the squirt didn't seem to mind.


Might want to increase the amount of water flow in there, nothing should really get "dusty" in a typical reef aquarium, especially with products like the Korallia powerheads making "big intense turbulent flow" so much more affordable these days. Wave your hand near it before your next water change and see if you can clean it off a bit. If it is a sea squirt don't try to clean it by blasting it with a turkey baster, at least not until it gets bigger, and even then do it very very gently.

Good luck with the cool hitchhikers!