Setting up a mini reef tank

[henry]

I'm thinking about going with a 10 gallon or a 5 1/2 reef tank. Is it possible to go with a berlin setup with a tank this small? and what type of fish will i be able to put in there besides clownfish and damsels

[Rob]

yes its possible to use a berlin system in a nano tank.
nano tanks are inherently unstable, so constant care and monitoring are required.

im not sure if this is your first tank, but i would not recommend this if it is your first SW tank.

as far as inhabitant you are limited. you can have your share if snail and small crabs, even a cleaner shrimp or peppermint shrimp or two.
For fish you are really limited to damsel fish, like damsels, clowns and chromis. you can also look into other small fish like firefish, and gobies.

many people try to do a anemone and clown fish combo, bu tthe needs of anemones are uite high, and its not recomemnded for newbies.

another very interesting (more so than the clown and anemone in my opinion) is a shrimp goby and a pistol shrimp.. do a bit of looking on shrimp gobies. the interaction between the two, is truely awesome..

Rob

[henry]

thanks for the reply

yea it would be my first saltwater tank , i know it would be easier with a bigger tank but i'm up for the challange. plus the petshop where i work at right now doesnt pay me enough right now to get the 125g dream tank that i want :wink:
i have a few follow up question

1 - Is the berlin system the best system to go with with a nano tank?
2 - What type of protein skimmer can i use for it? i though a skimmer would be to big to use for a 10 g or 5 g tank
3 - is it better to use live sand or the regualr marine sand they sell
4 - I think im going to go with the shrimp goby and pistol shrimp combination, a banded cleaner shrimp and a few snails and hermit crabs. Would a clownfish added in there be too much for the tank

[Rob]

yea it would be my first saltwater tank , i know it would be easier with a bigger tank but i'm up for the challange. plus the petshop where i work at right now doesnt pay me enough right now to get the 125g dream tank that i want :wink:
i understand the cost restraints, and as long as you understand that a nano tank can be ten time the work.. ok..
Please dont tank that as negative, i just want to make sure you are aware.. .now that we got that outta the way, lets answer your questions.. :)



1 - Is the berlin system the best system to go with with a nano tank?
probably.. do a 4-5 inch deep sand bed, about 1 Lbs of live rock per gallon, lots of current (about 15 tanks an hour) and a skimmer.


2 - What type of protein skimmer can i use for it? i though a skimmer would be to big to use for a 10 g or 5 g tank
you can look at a skilter 250, shoudl be good for 10 gallon, or look at http://www.aquatraders.com they have a handfull of skimmers that will work, most of the small ones are less than $40



3 - is it better to use live sand or the regualr marine sand they sell
i woudl use real live sand.. one bag should be more than enough, so it wont be real expensive


4 - I think im going to go with the shrimp goby and pistol shrimp combination, a banded cleaner shrimp and a few snails and hermit crabs. Would a clownfish added in there be too much for the tank
great choice, they are really cool.. :) and yes, it may be pushing it. the tank is goign to be small, so it wont handle much bio load. i would also check to see of that coral banded shrimp is compatable.. they get pretty big, and those shrimp gobies, stay pretty small..

if you go with the 10 gallon (which i suggest you do ;) ) you "might" be able to add a clown. keep it to a percula, or an ocellaris, adn only after a while.. make sure the tank will handle the excess bio-load.

and fianlly, as anything else.. do as much homework as you can before you add your first critter.. and feel free to bring any questions you have here.

[henry]

banded coral shrimp grow big? in liveaquaria.com they have them only growing to 2 inches [http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=698&TopCatId=525][/url]

[Rob]

i dont know what they are measuring when they say 2"
i have seen them much bigger than 2"
maybe just htere body

also see the section on that page where they say

It may harass other smaller shrimp of different species

personally i would say stay away from it... especially with the shrimp goby, and pistol shrimp...

besides, i belive they need large tanks...

[henry]

i'll take your advise than about not getting the coraly banded shrimp

15 tanks an hour meaning i would need 150 gph in a 10 g tank right?

[Rob]

yeppers... and if you dont keep any coral, you should be good there...
a couple small powerheads, and you shoudl be set.

[henry]

you mean i can't keep any corals ?????

[henry]

oh you mean no corals with 150gph....so how much gph should i have in the tank if i wanted corals

[Rob]

lol.. yes you can keep corals, but should be carfull what you put in there.
there not alot of room.. coral need bit of breathing rooms as they tend to start chemical warfare, if they get too close together.. either way, again.. its a matter of research... jsut may close attention to what oyu put in there...

as for flow, im sorry, i stated that wrong...
depending on what corals are added, you may beed to increase the flow rate to 20 tanks an hour or so. you can keep some at 15X but you may need to increase depending on the specific coral

[henry]

in the website nano-reef.com says that the only type of filtration thats needed in a nano tank is the live rock and live sand, they say thats the best way to go. whats your opinion on that

[henry]

the website is ..... http://www.nano-reef.com/articles/?article=3

[Rob]

there points are valid... skimming does remove both good and bad things...
this applies to tanks large and small..
they state that it would cause you to have to test and dose trace elements.
it then goes on on to say you should do 10-15% water changes to replace trace elements and remove nitrates... sounds liek they are presenting the solution right there... :roll:

the smallest tank i have ever kept was a 29 gallon. and i use a skimmer..
do weekly water changes and dont add any additives
i cant make a recommendation based on experince for a tank thats 5 or 10 gallons as you were lokking at.

what i could recommend is to start with no skimmer.. keeping a close eye on things and if you need one add one...

sorry i cant give you more specific direction... im sure you could be successfull either way you go. if you are concerned, there shouldnt be any harm in trying it without a skimmer, and monitoring.

[henry]

don't add any addidtives, meaning iodine and calcium suppliments, and things like that?

[Rob]

correct.
a good brand of synthetic sea salt will contain all of your major and minor trace elements, something like Instant Ocean (which is what i use). Check out Podcast Ep-6 for more information on sythetic sea salts
http://www.talkingreef.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=12

i did a whole show on sea salts, whats in them, and stuff like that

[henry]

ok

[henry]

im thinking about converting my african cichlid tank into a reef tank...how much live rock will i need for my 29 g tank

[Rob]

sounds like a great idea :D
(nothing against cichlids ;) )

the "general" rule is about 1-2 Lbs per gallon.
you should be good with about 30-40 Lbs.
a good cost saving option i discused in Episode 17 (http://www.talkingreef.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=31) is to use base rock too..

in this case i would get about 10-15 Lbs of LR and then the rest as regular not live, base rock.. setup the base rock as base, and then add the LR ontop of it... the LR will seed the base rock, and in about 4-6 months you will have all LR..

[henry]

how many inches high will that be in the tank

[Rob]

Hmmm.. well that really depends.. if you get smaller rocks, not as much.. larger rocks.. will be more...

you will likely fill the back 2/3 of the tank... and about 2/3 up to the top...

sorry if that doesnt make sense.. but what i mena is you will bave 3-5" of sand in the front, and about 3-5 fromt he top of the rocks to the surface...

you should be ok.. start at 25 Lb, and see how that works... it may not be enough.. but you can always start there.. and as long as your bio-load is low, you might be able to stay there...

[henry]

Rob, is there any way we could talk instant messaging....do you have AIM

[Rob]

absolutely...
click on the little AIM button at the bottom of my posts, adn you will get me.. :)

if it doesnt work, my SN is webcyberh

[henry]

is the amount of live rock i have in the tank going to factor in on how many fish im going to be able to keep in the tank

[Rob]

to a certain extent yes...
if you have the proper amount of LR, you can keep the normal amount of fish..

less LR, less fish..

now, this is a VERY general rule...
you really have to take into account the bio-load and size of the fish, along with there specific needs. you may be able to keep 2 or 5 fish in there, it more depends on the species and there needs than it does the amount of LR...

the importance of the LR is to be able to process the additional BIO-load.. and proccess the waste and by products of having those fish.

[henry]

i found a website that sells live rock for only about $3.50 a pound and free shipping
ecoreefaquatics.com

[Rob]

looks like a good find, you should submit that link in the Web Link section

[gwen_o_lyn]

Let me just throw something out there- were ick treatments ever used in this tank? If so, then the seals have absorbed copper, and that's not good.

[Rob]

great point...
Copper is known to stay in the silicone seals, and cause problems.

its also one of those cases where unless you know for sure, it may not be worth the risk..

thanks Gwen, i forgot to mention that one..

[henry]

when i switch over to saltwater, would it be ok to keep the already cycled african cichlid water and just takeout the dolomite to put sand and then add salt?

[Rob]

no..
the bacteria that cultures in saltwater is different.
i cant say for sure if it would be bad, but it wont save you anythign to my knowledge...

[mopecula]

When my boys had there 10 gal nano We found that doing a 10% water change a week was enough to keep the tank healthy and without a skimmer. Ofcourse the bio load was very light and we had mostly Zoos and button polyps in there.

[henry]

how much gph would the sea clone protein skimmer add to the tank ?? ( http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=4400&N=2004+113771 )

[Rob]

i dont think the sea clone is a very good unit, i have not persnally used one, but have hear mostly bad things about it. you might want to do a bit more research on that... i think its the prizm that is a bit better... but i cant say for sure, cause i havent used either of them.

but as for flow, it uses a maxi-jet 1200, which if i remeber correctly puts out about 290 GPH. and then take off about 20-30 GPH or so from the skimmer, so its prolly a bit more than 250 GPH.

i would still recommend doing some more research before you make that purchase... i can never rememebr which of these smaller units are good and bad, but just make sure you get some feedback from some peopel that have used it before you buy it

[henry]

what bad things u heard about the skimmer

[Rob]

agaon i havent used it before, so this is just what i haev heard, and also i cant confirm it was the sea clone, but i think it was...

but basically i have heard that it doesnt skim well at all, an that its a waste.

please make sure you confirm this information as i am not 100% sure, i knwo there is one of the small skimemrs that peopel seamed to liek, i think its the prism, but i cant seem to rememebr, or find any of my info on them.. sorry i coudl be more helpfull

[gwen_o_lyn]

I have a red sea prizm hang-on (my first skimmer) and its horrible- I don't recommend one at all. I used it almost a year- it got to the point where I was scared to clean it since I didn't know if I could get it running again. Just so many problems. I just purchased an AquaC Remora and from the reviews I've read, they seem to be one of the best hang-on skimmers. I'm not familiar with the sea clone- sorry.

[elklown]

Henry and other Nano Newbies,

As a fellow nano-reefer I'm going to jump in here and try and help out on some of what was discussed here. Rob or Gwen can correct any bad advice I give.

Cheap Nano Options -

I've done the 5.5 gallon nano, they're great and there is a lot of informaiton on nano-reef.com for 5.5 setups, but if cost is a primary concern, the cost is identical in keeping a 10 gallon and your equipment options will open up too. With either option I would go with a power compacts for lighting, a hang on back filter which can double a fuge and hiding spot for all your equipment (including a skimmer).

Skimming -
I do recommend skimming on a 10 gallon, but not a 5.5. But skimming is a "relative" term. I would go with a inefficent skimmer if any, many reefers stick to very effective skimmers such as a Aqua C Remora on a 20 gallon tank which quite a bit of skimmer power for a small tank. Look to see if you can find one of the older stlye counter-current skimmers such a Sander Piccolo or Coralife Super Skimmer 1 (piccolo clone), you can find them on ebay for about 20 bucks. Another option would be the new Fission skimmer by current-usa for about 30 bucks. Both will fit inside a hang on back filter and are effective skimmers for such small tanks but won't overskim.

Additives - i
If you go with a 5.5, you can skip on the additives, and even in a 10 gallon you can pretty much skip them if you do weekly water changes of about 20%. However, if you keep shrimp that molt often or someday move to creatures with high calcium requirements, try dosing with one of the new nano supplements available such as Nano A/B from Kent Marine.

[Rob]

all great advice..
thanks elklown for adding your input i appreciate it..
:)

[bband]

you can look at a skilter 250, shoudl be good for 10 gallon, or look at http://www.aquatraders.com they have a handfull of skimmers that will work, most of the small ones are less than $40


Here is a link to a mod I made years ago to a Skilter 250 for a 10g nano-

http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/6279/TipsSkilterModification.html

It cut down on the noise and bubbles in the tank and is quite effective with a low bioload. It also give you more water volume and a place for your heater and carbon bag.