hi all, ive had the i4 since it came out, never had sps till now and wondering for all those that have the i4 and sps, how far down from the leds do you keep your sps? also what % do you keep your day whites,blues, and lunar whites,blues? and what % works and what didnt? i was keeping the day whites and blues at 100%, but when i put sps about 16 inches below from the leds, they started turning white, bleached after like 2 weeks. so today i turned the day whites to 50%. did i do the right thing? any suggestions? or do sps and i4 dont get along??? anyone else have the same problem?

You need to acclimate your corals to the light. With my G I start them at the bottom and move them up with my LED's on 100%. If I have to start it higher in the tank I make a little shade over the individual coral. Your I is much stronger so I can't give you specific advice. Turning the LED's down will reduce the intensity but since many SPS need intense light I don't think this is a long term solution. I know that Dick's SPS are doing great under his I and I am sure he will chime in here soon.

what i usually do is when i get them from the LFS i see where they are placed and put them at the same level on my tank and then work them up, does everyone with their i4's keep their day whites at 100%? i thought putting them down to 50% and leaving the day blues at 100% would help.

For sure this will reduce the intensity of the lights.

well not sure if it helps now but i lowered the the corals and lowered the intensity of the day whites to 50% and the day blues to 80%, ill leave them like that for a week i guess, does that sound right? and then after a week ill raise the corals a bit and the lights too? maybe i can save some?? i took the ones i thought were dead and smelled them, they smell, and i heard if they dont smell they are dead but if they smell they are still alive. so i hope i can save them.

I would not move the coral and change the light intensity at the same time. Have you lost more than one coral from bleaching? You know, I realize that I haven't asked about which SPS, your tank parameters, and other fish, corals and inverts in your tank. Just to make sure that we aren't missing anything could you fill me in on them?

what are your tank parameters right now ?? test calcium, alkalinity, phosphates, and nitrates ... we will go from there. i am thinking that this is not a lighting issue, but something else. if it was the intense lighting they would have started to bleach within a couple of days.

i came in late tonight, i noticed my stag horn was white (bleached) on one side but the other side looked fine and pretty much the same with the rest of the sps, thats why i lowered the lighting, i get them right from the importer who gets them from the oceans, so im not sure if the sps are use to the intensity that the i4 produces at 100%. my softies are fine. i will check my parameters in the morning and post them as soon as i can. im gonna leave the corals and midway and the lights dimmed for now.

that sounds a lot like shipping stress, PO4, or nitrates ... maybe even high or low magnesium. have they ever shown any polyp extension since you have had them ??
i will check here tomorrow for parameters.

yes they show their polyp extensions, but not after they turn white and when i feed them i see the slime come off them and stretch, im going to check my parameters this afternoon, and i will post them.

checked my parameters, calcium is 490,kh was at 9dkh, phos. was at 0. i was actually thinking my parameters would be worse but i guess they arent, and the tank and live rock is doing what its supposed to do.

where are the nitrates ??

oops sorry nitrates were at 0 too but i dont have a test for magnesium. should i get one?

if you plan on keeping SPS ... a mag test kit is a big +. it is the third factor in calcium and alk.

Besides the staghorn what else is in your tank? What corals have you lost?

i have all different kinds of corals. im one of the lucky ones for a few reasons a really good friend of mine is an importer who supplies most of the LFS stores in the tri state area. so he lets me come in and buy whatever i want at cost. it just upsets me that i have some of these cool corals and theres something not right about how im taking care of them and im not sure what yet. i never tried a metal halide yet, this is my first reef tank, i had discus most of my life. i have all my corals combined in my 120 gallon tank. elegance, frogspawn, mushrooms, yellow leather, acro's, monti's, i have about 30 pieces of different corals in my tank. with too many fish for a reef tank too. i already learned a bunch of lessons for my next tank, 1. dont buy a half cirlce tank (kinda a pain for corals, looks awesome but just harder to work with) 2. dont buy so many fish for a reef tank, 3. set up a fish room. and the list could go on. im not sure i will buy led's on my next tank. i think i will go with m.h.'s next my i4 gives me alot of trouble, the computer freezes on it all the time. im having to actually switch it off and on every day. it may have to be returned.

could also be allelapathy (or however you spell it). which is chemical warfare between corals. i would seriously consider running a hefty amount of carbon in the system to alleviate some of the chemicals in the water. soft corals and SPS corals dont get along very well in a closed system.

all of my softies are far away from the sps's, is it true sps can be very near by other sps? like 1/2inch to each other? i know to keep away from the softies though.

Some varsities of coral are more forgiving of proximity than others. But all corals have some natural "space protecting" behavior.

Bobby brings up a good point about allelopathy. This is another space protecting behavior. Soft corals are often allelopathic. On the reef it keeps other corals from settling too close. In our tanks it becomes a source of irritation to other corals. I always run carbon.

I agree with your lessons learned, I love my corner tank and would probably buy another but it is more difficult to work with. I had a problem with my Solaris' computer locking up. Unplugging it would reboot it but a few days later it would happen again. Did they suggest that you reset your's with a white button inside of the light? Unfortunately it had no more effect than unplugging the light. Then they sent me a new circuit board to install and that fixed the problem.

ok, but what about the sps, can they stay near each other? i have mine about 1/2" and some 1/4" near eachother. is that safe?

this is off the topic, but i found a very small all black blenny, it must have been hidden in one of the sps i picked up, are all blennies reef safe?

I don't know about the blenny but I am wondering how many corals have you added over how long of a period?

SPS should be fine right beside each other. i have some that almost touch. are the SPS up or down flow from the softies ??

basically how i have my tank set up is all my softies are low in the tank with the mushrooms and yellow leather, my lps, in the middle and all my sps at the very top about 15 inches below my solaris led i4, which is not working right and im waiting for a new computer board from pfo, they said it will take 3 weeks for me to get. im wondering if i dont have enough flow for them as well, i think i need to buy stronger power heads any recomendations? i have 2 korolia pumps but i dont think they move enough water for my size tank and especially for the sps.

its still too early to tell and with my solaris i4 not working correctly it may make things worse but it looks like the ones that are doing good will make it, the ones that turned all white, i might have lost but the ones that didnt look like they will make it. I'll know now when i get new sps to place them lower in the tank at first. when you guys do that how many days do you leave them lower and how many days does the transition to the top of the tank?? i thank you all for all your help.

Hi tlpmyd:

Sorry to hear your having troubles, but I'm glad your posting because I am in or near the same situation (new I4, bleaching of some lps and wanting to include sps) and this dialogue should help, very experienced folk on this board. Powerhead wise I love my vortechs, but they are pricey. I have two in my 110 and they move water all over the place. I had to get rid of my green star polyps because I suspected they were killing (killed) a nearby frogspawn, so yes, be careful about overcrowding and upstream/downstream. I was overzealous with the I$ when I first got it, now I'm back down to 45% on blue and whites.

p.s. I have a black blenny too that I did catch "gumming" the edge of a cup coral, but I couldn't tell if he was doing any real damage or not, seemed just kind of like a angry little thing he did from time to time. The real damage was done by the innocent, shy little regal angel I had. What fun it was to get him out of the tank once I learned he was not reef safe! The blenny does not touch the hammer, torch, candy cane, or leather corals I have right now but I don't know about sps.

I think that the chemical warfare could easily move from bottom to top. Next time you blow off the rocks watch for a while and see how the debris is moving throughout the system. What LPS are you keeping? Many have long sweeper tentacles that can sting neighbors several inches away.

I have 2 K2's and 550 gph (after head loss) through the return in my 54 corner. I have to carefully position my torch or it gets unhappy from too much flow but the SPS would probably be happy if I added more!

ok i think i found out what i was doing wrong with my tank, originally i have said that my buddy runs an import business and lets me do some shopping at his shop, not knowing what kind of lights he had he was keeping his sps under 250 watt s mh's and i was keeping mine under the i4, right under the i4,close to the top which pfo states is equal to 400 watts. so i think i was bleaching big time. also i believe that i dont have enough flow for my tank, i do have two hydor korolia's in each corner but i do not believe it is giving enough flow to the sps, i say this because i see the polyps not really moving on the sps. now with that being said, if the sps are only getting minimal flow, some but not alot, is that bad as well? do i have to buy a pair of eco tech's?? hehe. i went with the hydor's because they were adjustable, and alot cheaper then the eco tech's, the ecotech's look great and save space, but the flow goes straight ahead, where as the hydors i can angle. but if im wrong please someone tell me, because i really want those eco techs lol and just need an excuse to drop 1000$ on a pair of water movers lol.

Which size of Koralias do you have?

i have 2 400gph koralia's, now remember i have a half circle tank, its 48 inches long and 32 inches high, its 120gal., i keep the koralia's one in each corner so they push the water towards the middle and angled a little down, kinda right over the top of the sps. but i can tell its not reaching some of the sps because their polyps dont really move.

with that being said, what is or is there a good gph flow rate for sps? also is there anything mandatory to get with keeping sps? like a calcium reactor? i only have my uv and protien skimmer. but if sps require something else please reccomend it to me thanks to all who have been helping me.

I think your are way under-flowed for SPS. You want to think in the 25-30 tanks per hour range. I have a 54 corner and I have 2 K2's and another 500+ gph through the sump for about 30 tanks per hour.

i agree with Carmie, you are WAAAAY under-flowed for SPS. i have just under 6000 gph in my SPS tank and am working on adding 2 eductors to my return lines to quadruple my flow from the returns.

could that be another reason why my sps are getting white that fast? between bleaching by the stronger light and not enough current? i guess i'm gonna have to buy a pair of ecotech's for my tank. do you guys think it will be better with them? they go from 500- 5000gph. i was just worried that when i put them both up on each side of my tank, it will blow the sps right off the live rock. but i guess we will have to see wont we. thanks again for all your support.

Hey there:

Vortechs are actually rated 300-3000 gph and I love them, just saw they were coming out with a smaller version for this summer but you probably want to go with the MP40s for sps. They seem to produce wide flow and can be programmed different ways to produce a random, chaotic flow. I've got mine placed at different heights on the back and they seem to produce a lot of "wind", too much sometimes for lps like torches. Get the battery backup too. This is a very helpful thread since what you want to do is pretty much what I want to do but am having a hard time with my water parameters right now. No stocking until it's dead on perfect.


Matt

Flow is as important for your corals as light. You could certainly go with the Vortech or Ecotech's. Koralia has just come out with controllable pumps too. All of these pumps make a wide stream and if positioned properly will not over power SPS. I did have to move my torch because it was unhappy with the flow.

Hi Carmie:

Vortechs are made by Ecotech Marine just to clarify. I had a bad weekend with the tank and had to chuck a few formerly nice pieces, ugh. My Nitrate levels are high (I think my filter pads as bubble baffles in the sump might be causing this) and the "big four" are not near what they are supposed to be but i have an off thread question maybe someone can help with. Clown fish hosting lps, good, bad, or ugly? Just trying to narrow down what is making things go south. Thanks.

Matt

Vortechs are actually rated 300-3000 gph and I love them.

I really like my MP40W Vortech as well. Very wide gentle flow all around my tank, helping to keep detritus suspended. Just one is perfect for my 55g. It really can move sand around though, so placement is not without limits.

BTW: The MP40/MP40W is rated at 1000-3000 gph, while the upcoming, less expensive (under $300?) MP20 (http://www.ecotechmarine.com/products/mp20.htm) will be 500-2000 gph. The MP20 will have updated wave modes, but will not be wireless, so it cannot communicate with other pumps. I run the MP40W at 25-30%, which probably translates to 1500-1600 gph. If the MP20 was out when I purchased, I probably would have just gotten that and set it to 60%.

There is great coverage on the Vortech on the latest Reefcast episode (#28) (http://www.reefcast.com/downloads.php), with an interview with Ecotech Marine announcing the new pump and why they think Vortech technology is special.

Hooray for the return of TalkingReef! Not to pick nits but the Ecotech site says MP40W is 500-3000 gph. I don't know if they changed it or not but I studied those things for months before I bought them and I had 300-3000 stuck in my brain from somewhere. Anyhow, it's way variable which is great.

Hooray for the return of TalkingReef! Not to pick nits but the Ecotech site says MP40W is 500-3000 gph. I don't know if they changed it or not but I studied those things for months before I bought them and I had 300-3000 stuck in my brain from somewhere. Anyhow, it's way variable which is great.

Their main product page now says 1000-3000 GPH, while the MP40W product page says 500-3000 GPH, which is really confusing. I remember it being 500-3000 GPH (as you have stated), while the 300-3000 GPH figure I remember seeing on a vendor site (MD?), which is how I believe the 300 GPH misinfo got spread around for a while way back when.

At the SoCal MAX show recently, I swore the Ecotech rep told me that the MP20 was 200-2000GPH, so I was a bit confused when their literature and web site contradicted. I will post on their RC sponsor forum to get the real story.

Hey Rroselavy:

Yep, you're right on that. I think it must be 500 but thanks for checking with them, life can be confusing enough without conflicting info.


Matt

Yep, you're right on that. I think it must be 500 but thanks for checking with them, life can be confusing enough without conflicting info.

Ecotech just announced the MP40W Gen2 with improved wave modes and a slower 500 GPH feed mode. Perhaps this is the one that truely does 500 GPH... I posted a Flow Rate thread (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1397150), so hopefully we'll get clarification.

OK, so I got my answer (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=12599878#post12599878). The MP40w runs from 1000 to 3000 gph in normal operation, while the MP20 speed was confirmed at 500-2000GPH.Both pumps run at 500 gph in feed mode. I asked why the MP40W cannot throttle down to 500 gph in normal operation when it can run that slow in feed mode, and Ecotech simply replied that the pump could do this but the software in the driver limits it to 1000gph.

I am not sure I am pleased with the answer, especially as EM just came out with new Gen2 software, and you know this limitation won't be changing any time soon. I also would like to program the duration of the Feed mode so it can be set anywhere between 10 to 60 minutes instead of just being limited to 10 minutes.

Hey Rroselavy:

Thanks for doing the legwork on this, I was following it over at RC. I posted my dismay. I looked back at some of the distributors and they had posted flow rates as low as 100 and 300 gph. I think for $900+ (2 pumps and a battery backup). they should have gotten the info right. I still like the pumps. I just put some foam blocks behind the tank and the already quiet pumps are now imperceivable noise wise.

Matt

Matt

Getting back to the I4, I've decided to keep the unit despite the scratch on top and the bend in the rail that makes one foot crooked, but now I need a hood/canopy. If I can get one 12" high it would match the mock up I did over the weekend. I really liked the light spread better at this height. Anyone have any supplier recommendations for this. I've checked the web and can only find 7" height. I've moved my braching hammer down in the tank and it is a lot happier. Still only running 40% both blues and whites.

I just did a Google search for "Custom Aquarium Furniture" and came up with a few results. Here is one - BRI Aquatic Cabinets (http://www.briaquaticcabinets.com/). I want you to know, I know nothing about them. Just trying to help.


Dick

I just put some foam blocks behind the tank and the already quiet pumps are now imperceivable noise wise.

Foam blocks? Around the pumps? The motor side can get quite hot to the touch without a sound insulator if driven at a high GPH. The foam may act as an thermal insulator and superheat your motors, transfer the heat to your tank, or warp your tank if it is acrylic.

Sorry to go back OT...

Hey Rroselavy:

Thanks for the concern. The foam is 4" away from the pump and there is plenty of air circulation, I've configured it so it muffles sound but doesn't block ventilation. I'm running my pumps a little stronger now (about 75%) and they don't seem to be any hotter than without the foam.

Thanks Dick:

Yes, I google everything. I saw those guys but am afraid to even get a quote, it looks way too fancy. I finally narrowed it down to a Perfecto Prestige series. There's 9" of height for around $250 plus shipping and I could get a custom 12" for a few extra bucks.

Thanks again for all your help,

Matt

im just waiting on a new motherboard for the i4, the menu screen and motherboard are messed up and its messing everything up with the light, funny thing is pfo said they dont keep them in stock so i have to wait a few weeks to recieve it. i hope it comes this week. anyway i noticed sinced i lowered my day lights to 50% most of the sps got better, but some were to burned to make it throught but now i know for the future. do you guys think its mandatory to have a calcium reactor for sps? i only have a protein skimmer. and i added some old powerheads for now since the ecotechs are kinda pricey for me.

Hi Tlpmyd:

Bummer about the motherboard and glad to hear about the rebound for some of your pieces. I was over anxious too, these lights are powerful. I'm sure Carla and PFO will take care of you but I know it's a drag to wait. I'm not sure about a calcium reactor, I get a lot of diffferent opinions and I'm curiuos about auto dosers.. What about RO/DI units? Do you use one? I assume my use of the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Tap Water Filter will have to stop and I should invest in a better unit. Dick I read you like Aquasafe Maximus II. Should I get that one with all the bells and whistles? I see they also have an "aquarium" unit for a little less.


Matt

do you guys think its mandatory to have a calcium reactor for sps?

No. I have many SPS in my 135 and I dose daily 90 ml of Ocean's Blend (http://www.theculturedreef.com/additives.htm) 2 part and Magnesium. I've got good color and growth. The 135 is just over two years old and I'm using the Solaris I4 lighting system.

Dick

Tom,

I agree that a reactor is not necessary but adequate calcium is. Out of curiosity, what is your Ca and how are you maintaining it now?

my calcium levels are in range, sometimes a little too high, not sure how since i really dont add much calcium to my tank, ive never seen it below 400 and most of the time its over 500 not sure how that happens. the rodi i use is made by airwaterice, he has awesome stuff and great prices, i have a 60 gal. drum with a float valve in it that my rodi uses to fill, and when its time for a water change i just pump it from the drum to my tank, if i had enough room i would have put it all in the basement and set up a nice fish room with the auto topper in my sump and not my drum. but thats my next project. also this might be an off topic, but anyone with i4's, what do you set your light levels at? i keep my day whites at 35% and my blues at 100%, my nights i just have my blues on at 10%, and 3x a day cloud cover for 10 min. on the solar cycle. but i just change the time to be 3 hrs slower so i can view the tank till about 9pm and then the lights fade to the moon lights

Hey Tlpmyd:

How much is not much calcium dosing? I'm curious because I'm about to get the right level but don't know what to do when I get there (I've been doing daily maximum dosing). I know I will have to experiment with stocking and dosing and testing but a few numbers from the group might help. I have my day blues and whites at 45 with 3x cloud cover for 15 minutes. I have my night blues at 15 and whites at 0. I think it still might be high (daytime) but I'm about to get a canopy this weekend and that should raise the lights 2" effectively "dimming" them a bit. It's hard to know right know unless I buy a meter. I haven't added anything to the tank since my water isn't right and I only have a few pieces left to go by, they seem happy. I do love the fact that you can change the temp and levels on these lights. I took a look over at RC to see what anyone was saying about them and some are still saying there's no savings in electricty and generated heat from a 2x250 MH combo T5 unit. My electric bill has come down about $60. a month, and my chiller just started going on again (it was going on in December with the old PCs).. They just don't get it but I'm not in the mood to argue.

Re: RO/DI your set up sounds great. Unfortunately I don't have enough room for that kind of permanent set up but I did go ahead and bite the bullet and order the Aquasafe Maximus II with all the extras (pressure gauge, tds meter, tank, extra cartridges). Shipped it will be just over $220. which seemed like a good deal and they did have Dick's seal of approval.


Matt

How much is not much calcium dosing? I'm curious because I'm about to get the right level but don't know what to do when I get there (I've been doing daily maximum dosing). I know I will have to experiment with stocking and dosing and testing but a few numbers from the group might help.

Depends on what your Ca uptake is. Once your Ca and Alk are in the "balanced zone", a good method is to test Ca, Alk, and Mg on day one, do not dose for 3 days, and then test Ca, Alk, and Mg. again to see how much the Ca and Mg levels drop.

Once you have those numbers, use one of several online calculators for determining the right amount of 2 part (and/or Mg) to obtain a target level. Here is one:

Reef Chemistry Calculator (http://reef.diesyst.com/flashcalc/flashcalc.html)

If you want to dose daily, divide the amount by 3.

Hey Rroselavy:

That is the exact answer I was looking for! Thank you so much!!!!


Matt

my lights sit 7 inches about the top of the tank and my sps are 5 inches below the top of the tank, so that would be 12 inches from the sps to the fixture.

Matt, you can also drip kalk to maintain Ca and alk. You may need to still dose Mg if there is not enough in your salt mix.

Tom, what does your salt mix up at as far as Ca goes? I would always test before dosing because if you drive you Ca too high your alk will fall and everything will get out of balance.

you know it is funny i use to use tropic marine pro reef but sometimes its so hard to find so i started using instant ocean, and when i did that change i noticed that some corals where not happy about that. but i still use instant ocean cuase not that many place carry the tropic marin pro reef. i really dont test cal. or alk. on a daily basis. i probably should, is there a digital tester that tests for all vitals instead of just one for each? whenever i do test for cal. its in the right range so i never freaked out about testing cal. on a daily basis. my softies look freaking great, especially my green duncans they are huge and multiply so quickly. my sps im still having some problems with. now that i turned the light intensity down and added another power head for better flow. but i still see some turning white. not as fast as before. just startinf from the base and the white is working itself up.

by the way im still way too new at this passion but does a cal. reactor keep the cal levels level ? without doing much more work? like it regulates the cal level and thus makes the corals safer?

I haven't ever used a Ca reactor so I can't comment about that. Ca does not really have any effect on softies. Your stony corals will do better if the Ca is stable and at 425-450. IO only mixes up at about 350 so you need to supplement for hard corals. I think that some of the controllers have a variety of probes to test different parameters.

ok tell me if i have enough flow, i have 2 koralia 1's and 2 433 powerheads that i found in my basement, would that be enough flow for my 120 half circle and sps? to me it doesnt look it hehe but im still new at this, i only threw what i found in my old aquarium junkyard in my basement for now. since i might be buying the bigger tank didnt want to spend much more on this tank because ill probably just convert this one in to an all fish tank. marine angels and such.

what is the total gph flow rate in ther system now???

I have 1700+ gph in my 54 corner tank. I don't know what the rate of the 433's is but I recommend you have a minimum of 2400 gph in your 120.

carmiejo you have a half circle or corner tank? where do you place your power heads to get the max flow? its kinda hard in a half circle to get flow everywhere in my tank, if you have a corner tank its easier to get the flow because you have 3 flat sides to put the powerheads on my half circle really my only choice is the back of the tank since thats the only flat piece of glass i have .im guessing my powerheads are just not strong enough and poor locations of the powerheads

I have a corner tank and the dynamics will be different than your half circle. But I expect that your tank width must be between 4 and 5 feet and I don't think, based on my experience, that a K1 would push water far enough to get good flow for your SPS. My first experiment would be to use 4 pumps. One on each end angled as tightly towards the middle as possible and two in the middle, one slightly one below the other, criss-crossing towards the ends.

well just an update on my situation, first off i took out the 2 hydor karolia 1's i had in my tank since they werent' moving enough water and put them in my 20 gal. long nano cube i made, they work perfect in there. i then bought 4 karolia 4's and place 2 on each end of the back and 2 along each side the overflow box, they work great, now with the pfo solaris lights, i left my day blue's at 100%, (because i light the blue tint) and dropped the day whites to 25%, and now my corals look like they are loving the flow and the light. i see frag corals ive had in my tanks for months finally growing out of no where since i upgraded the pumps and lowered my day whites down. i wish i would have done this in the begining, you have no idea how many corals ive lost because of lack of flow and burning under 100% day whites, i think it was more the lack of flow then anything. even some of the corals that were going bad, are starting to come around. im very happy with the pumps, they really move the water around! i also upgraded my sump pump to 1200gph, so there is probably too much flow lol but i like it. i took out the bioballs and added the rubblerock/dead corals (thanks to the lack of flow and day whites blasting them) haha. but all in all i think i got it going smooth now. of course im eyeing up those new perfecto 300 gallon deep dimension tanks, anyone have one? they look great! anyway thank you all so much for all your help.

I've seen one in a LFS. It was awesome indeed. Even the stand and canopy was of pretty fair quality for a tank manufacturer.