Hello everyone. I have been frequenting a different board and someone identified this site in a post. I'm glad they did. After reading a few pages of posts, I see that people here are friendly and ready to help fellow reefers.

Me: I'm a 33 year old E-6 in the Air Force stationed at F.E.Warren AFB here in Cheyenne Wy. I am a command level evaluator and an untermed "Technical advisor" for our MMIII ICBM's. I inspect the teams that build the missiles. I (along with my co-workers, find solutions and workarounds when the teams find they are out of technical data to do their jobs and I also research new updated equipment for the teams to use in the field.
I have two sons, one's 2 and the other is 3 and they love fish. My wife want's me to get back into it but she agrees that I should step up to reefing. I've had numerous freshwater setups and 2 different salt water ones in the family but I wasn't the keeper of either. I want the tank setup for the experience and relaxation of the view and also so we don't have to buy another 4 legged house roaming pet.

My tank: I have a 65g reef ready tank that's 36w, 18d and 24h. We were limited on space. I built the stand as you can see below. That's my 3 year old in front of it. The stand is 36" tall and the canopy is 10" tall.
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh298/ndfastang/DSC05313.jpg


I have a 20L tank below that I put the baffles in for a sump, skimmer section and fuge. The pic below shows what I did and where I'm at today.
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh298/ndfastang/DSC05331.jpg

My skimmer is a Berlin Classic that I believe is rated to 125g but I got it for $75 so I took the deal. I plan to have 2 Koralia 3's for internal circulation and an Eheim 1260 for a return that will net me around 29 times cycle rate. I hope that's good. I'l have a 150w and a 200w heater in the supm. One in the skimmer section and the other in the sump (I like having a backup). I have a T5 retro kit with 4 bulbs and two balasts. I'm getting another set of lights now since we went from FOWLR to a reef plan. Right now I have, from front to back, (all 39watt T5's) ATI Blueplus, ATI Actinic, UVL Aquasun and an ATI Aquablue. I think I'm going with another Blueplus and maybe a 75/25 or two Blueplus's. Not sure on that one yet. I'd like the ability to have whatever I want in the tank even if it means putting some stuff up high on the rock. The lights are 5 inches off the water line. I dropped them from the 8 inches in this picture. I hope the wattage will do.
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh298/ndfastang/DSC05316.jpg

We sat down and planned what we think would be a good livestock setup for the tank that would be hardy and easy to maintain. I go TDY alot out of state and the wife needs to be able to focus on feeding and maybe top off untill I get it setup for ATO.

We are going with about 55-60lb of Figi live rock and a 2-2.5" live sand bed. To give you an idea of what we want in the tank. I'll list our hopeful inhabitants and see what you all think. For corals, we have so far, monticap, some mushrooms, a torch, a sun coral, a chili coral, hammer, a toadstool, green polyp leather, and some different color Zoa's(my favorite). I haven't read on too many more but we've seen alot we like. The fish we would like are 2 false percs, a yellow tang, a lawnmower blenny or a red scooter blenny, a red spotted hawk, a 6 line wrasse, a green or a spotted mandarin dragonet and we'd like a blue hippo but understand if the tank's too small we'd settle for a Kole, blue spotted Kole or a yellow eyed Kole to replace the hippo. The boys would love a "dorrie" in the tank. My cleaners would consist of (of course some of the fish) 2 cleaner shrimp, around 3 or 4 peppermints, 10 or so blue legs and 10 or so Nassarius snails. What do you all think of this livestock list? I fear I'm not putting a big enough clean up crew in but I can add more later. They wouldn't go in all at once anyways. I have to gradually add them as the tank matures.

I hear about Chaeto in the fuge for nitrates and I will have some LR rubble in it too with some LS but I don't know what else. What would be the best materials to put in it? I read that some of the fish eat copopods. I hear people say they house them in the fuge. How does that work and should I consider? Some of my fish choices like them as far as I've read. I just don't know what would do best for me in the fuge. Any advise or constructive criticism would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Dave

Well Dave let me start of by saying :welcome: to TR.
I'm new to this to but looks like you did your home work and looks like you got a keeper their to :heart:. About the copopods just having a sump give them some were to hide cause most fish will eat them. Now having sand , live rock in there is a good idea that gives them some were to hide and the Chaeto is a good choice to it helps keep ( Don't quote me on this but something like this.)your Nitrite, Nitrate low. But it will need to be thind out every so often. A good way to get copopods is to put live rock in you tank. They are probably all ready hiding in the rock.
Well I'll let the others comment more on all this since I'm new to all this.
But the setup and stand looks nice. :up:

Keith

Hi Dave, and welcome to TR.

Beautiful job on the stand and canopy, they look great!

It sounds like you've done a good bit of research so far and are in the right track equipment and setup wise.

If I might give my $.02 on your stocking list, I think there are a couple of items you should reconsider.

Your coral stocking list looks fine with the possible exception of the chili coral. They are non-pohoto synthetic, require feeding with phytoplankton and have specific care requirements. they are considered fairly difficult to keep.

As far as livestock, I think you're planing to overstock your tank. As you know the hippo is definitely not a good choice for this tank. IMO, no tang is a good choice for a tank this size, including the yellow and Kole. The mandarin may not do well either. They are copopod eaters and require a lot of LR to keep enough pods in the system in keep them from starving. The general rule of thumb is 75 pounds. People have been successful with less, but those successes are few and far between. Most mandarins end up starving unfortunately. The tank also needs to be very mature before one is added. 6 months at a minimum, and I'd prefer a year. The red scooter blenny and sixline would directly compete for food with the mandarin as well. I'd pick either the blenny or the wrasse and forget the mandarin. So, that leaves us with the pair of clowns, a lawnmower blenny, a spoted hawk and a six-line. That is a much more appropriate stocking level IMO, and fish that will do well in a tank your size. Again these are just MY OPINION, so take my suggestions for what they're worth.

Anyway, welcome again, and feel free to hit us up with whatever questions you have.

Thanks for the responses guys.

I thought of the 6 line and the mandarin eating the same thing but didn't consider getting the mandarin until last. I'm aware of the 6 month general rule and planned to stick to it. What I didn't think of was the blenny eating the same stuff. I actually considered dropping the idea of the 6 line but can't decide which would be more hardy and beneficial. We want a variety of colors and the ability to have fish at all levels of the tank instead of just down low or mid level. I can handle one of the three but it'll be hard to decide which to get. I like the idea of the Blenny eyeing everything. The boys would have a blast with that. I do like the colors of the others too though and they all have some type of beneficial factor to them being in my tank. Decisions...

I liked the look of the chili and she wanted it. I didn't read on it and that seems to be apparent now. Maybe we'll skip that one here. Thanks for saving me alot of reading.

I hear that nobody should go with a tang because of size but I see so many of them in similar tanks for extended periods of time. When we decided to go with the yellow and one of the others, we understood that we'll have to get them small and either sell them off to the LFS for credit when they're too big, or hopefully our plans to get back to our other house up north would work out in 2 years and we could take everything up there to a 120-150g setup in my bar (basement). I don't plan on having large fish in this tank. I know the hippo is beyond borderline for my tank but the other two were said to be better in a smaller setup like mine. Not that they were great but that they would be OK. I'd like a good vibrant, hardy tang of some sort with some good blue color. I just want to be sure to inhabit more than just the bottom of my tank with fish.

If i were to concentrate my fuge on copepods, would I be OK to have one of the 3 fish in the tank. I'm going with Figi which is said to be less dense than other rocks and fills more space. It sounds logical to me that the weight wouldn't mean as much as the mass. Am I thinking right on this? I really want to get the rock in and see where I sit with space. I would add more after curing if needed later. I just don't want to pay for so much rock only to not want that much in the tank. I'm also going with some LR in the fuge and sump areas to help but I'm limited on that space too.

I'll have to re-look at what we like and see if anything else fits the bill. I'm sure I'm not going to get it perfect the first time but would surely like to try and get close.

Thanks for the ideas and recommendations. I'm open to more.

Dave

Welcome to TR Dave. We appreciate your service to our wonderful country, thank you!

I like the fact that you have done some research and involved the family. That's a great thing to do.

Some of what I'm going to address has already been stated but my opinion should reinforce theirs. Also, we don't know the level of knowledge you have so bare with us on the basics if you already are aware of them.

We are going with about 55-60lb of Figi live rock and a 2-2.5" live sand bed.
My choice would be to go with about 90 lbs of LR. Generally it is recommended to use about 1 1/2 lbs per gallon of system water. Your live sand bed at 2.5" will contain and support aerobic bacteria good for the initial two cycling events. One, the conversion of Ammonia (very toxic) to Nitrite (very toxic). Second, the conversion of Nitrite to Nitrate (much less toxic, tolerated at low levels). Nitrate, if not converted to Nitrogen gas will continue to build to toxic levels. Along the way it will fuel other problems. How do we handle this Nitrate problem? I use and promote DSBs (deep sand beds) of a 4" minimum. This allows for anaerobic bacteria to develop and convert Nitrate to Nitrogen gas which is then released to the atmosphere. For more information on DSBs, go to this link on my web site and read Dr. Ron Shimek's article Sand Bed Secrets (http://www.theculturedreef.com/aragonite.htm) Click on the thumbnail picture of the book. You will come away with a better understanding of sand beds and the Nitrogen cycle which all tanks go through.

For corals, we have so far, monticap, some mushrooms, a torch, a sun coral, a chili coral, hammer, a toadstool, green polyp leather, and some different color Zoa's(my favorite).In addition to the Chili Coral that Phurst mentioned, I'd caution you on the Sun Coral also. It requires special feeding because it is not photosynthetic either. It needs to be fed separately. I'd forgo that for now until you see the level of commitment generated from the family while your gone.

I haven't read on too many more but we've seen alot we like.This is shared by all of us. :rotfl:

The fish we would like are 2 false percs, a yellow tang, a lawnmower blenny or a red scooter blenny, a red spotted hawk, a 6 line wrasse, a green or a spotted mandarin dragonet and we'd like a blue hippo but understand if the tank's too small we'd settle for a Kole, blue spotted Kole or a yellow eyed Kole to replace the hippo. The boys would love a "dorrie" in the tank.As mentioned by others, your tank is too small for any Tang. They need a minimum of 6' of length for their comfort and that is a hard fast rule. Yes, you could get a little one with the intent of upgrading your system when he outgrows the tank. Please don't even consider that option. It is cruel to the fish because even at 1 or 2" the Tangs are programed to roam wide and far and they will be stressed out in your tank. A stressed Tang will soon be a diseased Tang and then you have real problems to deal with. By the way, the disease usually times it's arrival upon your departure on a TDY trip. No kidding!

The clowns (Ocelaris or Percula) are okay. Be aware that other species of clowns, cute and friendly in small sizes grow into territorial beasts. Ask here before buying. Scooter Bleenies and Manderins require live copepods to survive and Phurst covered the reasons for not having them.

I will be the one to inform "The Boys", sorry, no Dory guys. Dory is a tang that reaches 12" in length. Your tank is too small.

My skimmer is a Berlin Classic that I believe is rated to 125g but I got it for $75 so I took the deal. I plan to have 2 Koralia 3's for internal circulation You got a great deal on the Berlin. I used one on my 75 gal for several years and loved it. When it comes time to shop for your Koralia #3 pumps please check out our web site - Koralia Pumps (http://www.theculturedreef.com/koralia.htm). We are a Tr sponsor. Besides having good prices we offer free shipping.

As I was typing this I see you responded, so I will continue on. You said you are open to more recommendations. That's good.

I hear that nobody should go with a tang because of size but I see so many of them in similar tanks for extended periods of time. When we decided to go with the yellow and one of the others, we understood that we'll have to get them small and either sell them off to the LFS for credit when they're too big, or hopefully our plans to get back to our other house up north would work out in 2 years and we could take everything up there to a 120-150g setup in my bar (basement).Please read the following from someone who has been there and done that or at least tried. Selling them off when too big is more hassle than what it's worth. Your tank is going to be set up, established, LR decorated, etc. Do you think that tang, or any other fish, is going into a net with out a struggle? They are nearly impossible to catch with out tearing the LR out. Forget it. Moving them in two years is living in the future, we live in the now. Have you ever moved a fish tank cross country? It's a disaster waiting to happen and it will happen. It can be done but think for a minute. Your moving a complete household, wife, kids, cars and only you know what else. Adding a fish tank, filter system, livestock and water, again, I'll repeat it, is a disaster waiting to happen. It sounds easy but it's not. It sounds like the 120 or 150 gal in the basement is in the planning stages. That's going to be a great tank but, live in reality, Dave. Are you going to set that tank up ahead of time, allow two months for the cycle to happen? Or are you going to set the current tank back up the moment you get in the driveway? Because after making the trip "up North", you, the Wife, the kids and the fish are going to be stressed to the max. Am I making any sense? Do you understand? You would be better off selling this set-up and have the fun of taking the wife and boys on a buying spree once settled up North. Maybe you have a better plan, I don't know.

Just trying to point out reality, Dave. Hope you are not offended by anything I've said.

Dick

Yo Dave... thanks for joining the family...and thanks for all you do for the good ol' US of A. I work on the peripherals of DoD. Security guy here, at a contractor site. I know of the work you do. Keep up the good fight!

Nice rig you have going there. You really did do your homework. Congrats to you and your family. You're going to love the world of reef.

Dave

It would take alot to offend me. I welcome informed posts until I start being called stupid or my family is insulted. I'd like to think I'm an adult. I know sometimes I don't act the part, but......

THe other house I speak of is already mine. It's almost paid off by renters that will be out before I get there. I'll be ghosting it for a year. We go up there at least twice a year. It's only 10 hours away. That's with 2 dogs and 2 kids on different stop schedules. We have that all planned out. I have to deliver my race car up there early so I planned on the setup then. I'll have the water, new rock and new sand setup. Her brother will make sure everything is ready for me. All I'll have to do is plug some heaters and pumps into the power inverter and make the trip alone. I can make it in 8 hours alone. I'll have a few totes in the hatchback and make my way. She's related to half the town up there.

We've kind of agreed that the Hippo wouldn't do well and will look elsewhere for another type of bright interesting fish. As for the clowns, I've read on them and understand the territorial part. I'm just looking at a set of false percs. I see they're offered for sale as a mated pair. I might go that route. The 6 line is surely going to stay but what else we go with will have to be researched more. She really likes the green mandarin but we're not going to play that game. I think we're going to focus mostly on the corals but would like some colorful fish.

I really can't say how much LR I'm going to go with. I have to get some and put it in. I may end up with more. I just found a picture of a 65g with 51lb of LR in it and it had tons of room for more. I just threw out that numbar as a starting point.

As for the sand, We measured the tank and it looks like we could be satisfied with about 3.5 inches in it ans the 1/4 inch worth with the eggcrate in it totaling 3.75". Going that route we might skip the sand in the refuge for more LR rubble down there. This way the copepods have more area to grow and breed. Thanks for the link on the sand beds. I'll have to really read into it hard.

As you can see, I haven't read as much as I need on the inhabitants. I mainly focused on the setup first and the fish next because we were going FOWLR. We just recently decided to go all out.

I'll be sure to check out all the vendors here. I haven't had time to peruse past the forums and the photo gallery yet. I'm supposed to be studying for my E-7 test. I still have a month or so before I have all the hardware in hand and am ready to start cycling. Rest assured, I'll be reading until then.

If I gave up everything I enjoyed because of moving, the Air Force would have a seriously depressed person on their hands. I've done well to move everything a few different times. It's the price we pay. We're headed to Germany in 6 years. I don't know what I'm going to do then. They'll have to move our stuff for us. If they break it, they'll replace it. I'll have a tank everywhere I go even if I have to sell off and get new sand, rock and livestock everytime. It'll be a learning experience and I'll have full knowledge of what my final retirement tank will look like. We'll be settled everywhere for at least 3 years and right now that rule is 4 years. I'm not worried about any of that. It's just money. As long as I find new homes for the livestock (give away if needs be) I'll be fine. LFS's will love my donations.

As for what I do, it's just a job. I go to work just like you all do. I just get to travel and see things and wear the same thing everyday. No biggie. Heck, my college is even free.

The family needs to be involved in every decision and plan. If you've looked at the statistics on military divorce, you'd agree with me.

Thanks guys. I hope I don't sound too much like I'm trying to defend my decisions. I just want everyone to understand I've though about alot of it and know I'm not fully "schooled" on the subject yet but I'm trying. I don't just want to give it up and sit on my but and take up video games. This is more rewarding and relaxing for the whole family.

Thanks
Dave

Dave, glad to see we haven't run you off :)

I think the clowns and six-line will be great additions, and a fine starting point. You're not going to want to add all your fish at once anyway, and that will give you plenty of time to research and ask us about your next purchases.

What kind of racing do you do?

good to see the amount of research that you have done !! i have to agree with everyone else on the first post and replies.

i am usually one of the first to reply, so sorry for my tardiness in this thread. in my defense though ... i am rebuilding my local clubs website. always fun doing that.

ANYWAY ... welcome to TR !! you have gotten excellent advise so far.

Nahh. I'm not going anywhere.

The kids and the wife will be happy with the "Nemo's" in there and I'll be happy with the 6 line. Two types of fish I do want to consider are some type of hawkfish and an angel of some sort. I'll only do one angel of course. I like the traits of the hawkfish. The angels all seem to be in the same realm as the tangs regarding tank size. Can anyone recommend a good colorful reef safe angel?

She likes the flame angel and I think the color will set off nicely. I like the pigmy. It's blue and small but might not do well with reefs.

Thanks
Dave

A flame angel (Centropyge loriculus) should work..or a Potters Angel (Centropyge potteri) If and when the tank is "mature" you could probably push the limits, with a small fishload, with a coral beauty (Centropyge bispinosus) or a Lemon Peel (Centropyge flavissima)

Search for "Pygmy Angels"

Dave

Phurst,
I have a 93 Mustang GT that was supercharged, then turbo'd, then supercharged and now it's naturally aspirated but soon to be turbo'd again. I haven't been to the track in a long time now. It was in 5.0 and Super Fords magazine a few years back. You can see my other toy behind it. I had to sell the 54 a year ago. I may be selling the stang when we go over seas. I can't drive it much anyways. I am recovering from multiple artificial disc replacement (not fusion) and I don't think I'm going to be doing much racing anymore. It's time to build a cruiser.
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh298/ndfastang/prostars1.jpg

That's another reason I'm picking up reefing. less physical work and pain in the neck.

Dave

Hi Dave and :welcome: to TR.

My sixline is one of my favorite fish!
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/CarmieJo/DSC_5109.jpg
I also like my C. argi and would suggest one as a possibility for your angel fish.
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/CarmieJo/DSC_4871.jpg
I will say that except for the Geni... there are no guarnateed reef safe angels. However all of the ones mentioned are generally known t be good reef citizens.

About the clownfish. I would probably just buy 2 juveniles. Clownfish are sequential hermaphrodite and if you start with 2 juveniles you will always have a pair!

Thanks for your service to our country. It may be just a job but I sure sleep better at night knowing you are on it!

Very nice car Dave, I bet it was a real beast!

I used to autocross with some regularity until I sold my car last year.

Mine hasn't ran in 4 years.

Well, we sat down and talked about our fish wish list. We're set on the 2 percs. They'll be the first fish in the tank. Then we're sure the 6 line and the flame angel are next. After that we feel the tank will be setup for awhile and I'll have added the CUC and many corals. throughout the fish additions. She still wants the lawnmower blenny and I do like them too. We'll try one out and if it doesn't work, we'll substitute with something else. We'll probably get him about 8 months out from when we start stocking so it'll be about a year. Somewhere in there we still want something else. She and the boys like the yellow tang but I don't want to be shunned for going against the grain. She did mention the tank up north being a good home for the yellow after it outgrows this tank.

I'll slowly add the cuc so I don't overdo it at once and have many of them die off. I think I want to split the Nas snails for 5 Nas's and 5 Turbo's, maybe even more. That with the 10 blue legs should cover the tank sides and sand bed.

I've searched all night and looked in my pic folder to see the different aquascaping. I saw 2 different 65g tanks with 55 and 72lb's of live rock. They looked baren to my surprise. I'm pretty positive I'll be ordering 80# now since we want more in there for everything. That'll give me more room for more corals too. I'll pile it against the back with alot of crevaces and ledges so the fish can roam in front and still have places to hide. I'll have to watch flow back there though. Maybe I'll keep it just off the back with support rods and have one of the return lines shoot straight down behind it all.

I'll be ordering the pump, heaters and lights soon and I'll plumb the sump setup. Then the RO/DI setup, refractometer and powerheads next month and I'll have all the hardware I believe. I'll get a refractometer, salt test setup and some timers for the lights locally too. I think then I'll be ready for the water setup and then order rock and sand. Does this sound like a good flow?

What would be the ideal way to introduce all the inhabitants to the tank? I heard the fish should be first, cuc should be first,etc....... I think the percs first after cycle and then a few corals. Then a few snails, then the 6 line and flame angel, some more corals and then some more of the cuc depending on how the tank looks.

What do you all think?

Based off current lights, what other 2 bulbs would you guys recommend? I don't want the tank bright white but not overly blue either. I want the colors to really show but want the right light for the bottom of the tank to support whatever I decide needs to go down there.

Thanks. And Happy Easter. My boys searched the house fro 62 plastic eggs with money and candy in them. They found 60 and I can't remember where the other two are. They'll show up someday.
Dave

I think 8 months in you'll have a good idea as to if your tank will support the lawnmower blenny. I love mine, it has so much personality :)

As I'm sure you know, part of the cycle is going to be the usual blooms of diatoms, green algae and cyano. I started adding my CUC as soon as these started appearing, and ammonia and nitrite were zero.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I agree that the "tank up north" would be a much better home for a yellow tang, and I would encourage you to wait until it's up and running before you get one.

I'm affraid I'm not much help where the bulb choices are concerned.

Speaking of angels, I've had good luck with my coral beauty, it's been a model tank citizen.

I think the clowns are a great first fish choice. They are hardy and are fun to watch. To me they always look like puppies wagging their whole back ends instead of just their tails.

As far as the snails go, watch what kind of turbos you get. The snails that you often see are temperate and do not live long in our reef tanks. I would also consider cerith snails. I see mine grazing on algae but they also burrow in the sand. I suggest going over to Project DIBS (http://www.Projectdibs.com) and taking a look at their sustainable snails.

I enjoy the hermits in my tanks but some people do not like them claiming that they kill snails for their shells. IMO they may be just doing their cuc job when a snail dies. Then, after all that work, maybe they are just looking to move into a new place.

I can't help with the bulbs, I am a Solaris gal!

You will be glad to know that shunning and flamming just are not part of the way we do things at TR. The average length of time someone has been in this hobby is 1 year and the average hobbyist stays in the hobby less than 2 years. We don't want anyone to get discouraged and we will tell you when we think you have made a mistake or are about to make one. By choosing fish that are appropriate for your tank you will be more apt to become a long term hobbyist.

Thanks.

I hope after 8 months, I'll have it up and going complete and will be able to get one. She really likes it. I may have to have a copepod breeding tank on the side or return it for something else. We'll see.

I'm not set on when I'll add the CUC. I'll add them as I see the need. If they go in before the fish, so be it.

I checked that DIB's project page. when I look at some of the species, they say availability to only breeders. Is that saying they're only available TO breeders, or FROM breeders?

I'll go with the crabs and see what they do. I'll never know unless I try. I'll throw a few extra shells of various sizes in for them to relocate if necessary.

Thanks
Dave

I believe that DIBS is still only to breeders but you will find that some of the critters are available through other sources. I was suggesting it as much as a guide as a site to purchase from. I think that your boys will like the hermits!

It may have been said in your thread already but check out Amphibious' tank thread. He has some really simple PVC stands for his rocks to help prevent detritus build up. I have a powerhead aimed down behind my rock and it comes on for only 30 minutes a night to blow detritus out of dead spots.

Welcome bud - someone that builds the "red button" & has petrol in the blood, this is all i need to know in order to like you already. :up:

good luck with your tank build. it looks the goods already. As you've seen, plenty of advice @ the right pitch :cool:

Thanks. I have considered a PVS stand. I think if I keep one of the return lines pointed down behind the rock, I'll have continuous flow back there. Now do I want that, or should I be piling the rock against the back? I'll have to see unless there's a "golden rule" about this.

I've seen a few PVS setups. I was planning on putting the rock on the eggcrate that covers the entire tank bottom and then filling the sand around it to about 2.75" of sand. Is this not suggested?

Yes I have oil in my veins but I don't build the proverbial "red button" anymore. Now I watch, teach and direct others to. I miss those days. -60* and I'm shoveling snow to get into an 80ft deep hole in the ground. Never mind, I don't miss that. Now guys do it before I even get to site.

tanks are like engines, abit of mechanical sympathy can be applied easily & makes your life easier. Even with rockwork- give yourself proper access for maintainence - so keep it off the firewall if you catch my drift

Sounds great. I like the comparrison. You're going to make me go out in the garage and do something here soon. I've stayed away to recover from surgery but the itch is getting bad.

Thanks
Dave

I myself am a fan of a DSB but either way the advantage of stands is that water can literally circulate under the rock instead of just around it and you can take advantage of the filtration provided by that sand. By placing the rock on the eggcrate you will avoid deadspots under the rock but you also decrease the amount of sandbed you have.

tanks are like engines, abit of mechanical sympathy can be applied easily & makes your life easier. Even with rockwork- give yourself proper access for maintainence - so keep it off the firewall if you catch my drift
V you better watch if he hearts himself he's going to push the red button.:evil::fire:

lol.


Ive got my own defence platform protecting us! My red button disperses multible exploding fosters coldies into the atmosphere as decoys. Which generally effects motor skills & sence of dirrection of the missiles so it hits tasmania instead!! I already have an island, the worlds biggest, but when i retire tasmania is a more manageble size to take over! See - theres a method to the madness! Muhahahaha!

I don't Know what to say but. LOL:rotfl:

You guys are killing me. I'm enlisted. They don't trust us to turn the keys. We have (in my best sarcastic voice) the super smart officers to do that. I just used to put the bomb on top of their oversized bottle rocket.

We're headed to Germany in just under 6 years but would really love Austrailia. I don't think the US Air Force has much there to offer us. She's German and I'm Austrian. We're headed over to see where our families come from and be centralized so we can travel all over europe with less effort. We'd still prefer Austrailia.

Dave

I've seen a few PVS setups. I was planning on putting the rock on the eggcrate that covers the entire tank bottom and then filling the sand around it to about 2.75" of sand. Is this not suggested?

Dreed,

I want to clarify what your plan is. First, PVS is what? Second, are you planning on setting the egg crate directly on the glass bottom, then adding the sand and then the rock? I'm confused.

Dick

I meant PVC. Right now I have eggcrate covering the entire floor of the tank. I'm not sure if that's the best idea but I want to makesure the rocks hit something other than glass if some inhabitant moves the sand enough and a rock falls or something. I'm going to epoxy the rocks but just want to be sure.

So, the eggcrate, then add the rocks on that and the sand around them. That would give the bottom rocks a solid footing.

Am I thinking right?

Dave

Ok, got it. Are you thinking right? Possibly. There are several ways to set up a DSB. I've been teaching reefers something different for about 10 years.

http://www.theculturedreef.com/135%20Rock-2.jpg

Here's what I do. PVC pipe supports pushed to the bottom of the DSB with flat rock on top, LR built up from there. None of my rock rests on the sand allowing water to freely flow under the LR keeping the DSB active. When LR rests on sand large dead area can develop and cause the failure of the DSB in that area which can cause problems.

http://www.theculturedreef.com/135%20Rock-9.jpg

This is what the completed aquascape looks like. The PVC is barely noticeable. Now, two years later, no one notices it.

You can learn more of my techniques in my tank thread - Amphibious' 135 reef (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/member-tank-projects/412-amphibious-135-gal-reef.html)

Dick

We'd still prefer Austrailia.

gota keep the place respectable you know. to many fly boys kept crashing due to every second house occupants naked sun baking in the back yards:o

thats why the american bases are all "outback" now - with sand drifters & camels as nabours. lol

Amphibious, Thanks for the link and the idea. I was thinking of something far more complex and didn't stick to the KISS method. I'm going to have to experiment with that.

veriann, You caught on too fast. Don't worry, I won't be the flyboy. I'll be living off my sugar momma and would be one of the naked sun bathers myself. The wife will be the flygirl. She's coming in as an Officer (nurse) when I retire in just under 6 years. My job doesn't afford us the ability to travel outside of the US for obvious reasons. She'll be able to go just about anywhere we have a base with a clinic.

Dave

a german nurse, lucky bugger, why didn't i think of that! :p

Kiss method, OMG whats that

Kill
Indescriminatly
Secluded
Stick insects

Hmmmm, maybe not...how bout.....


Kick
It
Seriously
Sideways

Hey V,

You are a riot tonight. This new found freedom must be sitting well with you.

Amp

yep, plenty of sleepness nights & not one, but two russian brides on their way is enough to put a smile on anyones dial ampage. Just hope they put breathing holes in the packaging this time - last time i got stuck with the return postage...muhahahaha*cough*haha!

My job doesn't afford us the ability to travel outside of the US for obvious reasons.

Not without an Unofficial Foreign Travel Form, and a Defensive Security Briefing anyways :) Sucks doesn't it? Even Mexico, Canada, and Bermuda require prior notification and adjudication... *sigh* I'm a "kept" man too.

Dave

Could it be all that dark austrailian beer that's got him in a good mood?


German nurse sounds better than it is. She's always right no matter what, She's always smarter than me no matter what, She has to get her Masters Degree before I do, She has say in everything (but my race car) we do or get and worst of all, she always wants to give me a shot or play doctor even if I get a simple little paper cut. She even wanted to go in the operating room when they were replacing my c5/c6 and c6/c7 discs last month.

It's not as bad as it sounds. She's great and keeps my head screwed on right.

Amphibious, I read most of your build. I really like the idea of the PVC stands. I only fear the rockwork falling. I think I'd like to go that route with the PVC and epoxy the rockwork together. I was skeptical untill I read where you drilled the two holes in the bottom of the tubes also. That is a nifty idea. The only other concern I have is, I don't want to play with a spray bar for flow or anything down there to keep the sand still other than the crab and snail movement. I'm sure my Koralia's would have a little flow down ther but not much. Without light down there, will I have any issues with little flow or should I try to incorporate some type of flow down there?


When I was stationed at Vandenberg AFB Cali, we went on a cruise to Ensinada and the islands just off Long Beach. No passport or paperwork needed. I just had to sign a paper stating I wouldn't tell anyone anything and that I'd stay away from hypnotists. The same thing when I was at Minot ND. I went to Winnepeg a few times there. That's a PRP thing there if you understand the AF acronyms.

Thanks
Dave

wow we got r'self a keeper around here. But watch V got his flux capacitor working. It will be time before he comes and gets you and have you back before Supper.

i wish i could say i understood that keithy-boy, but not even im that weird..lol