OK. First, a little about myself. I have had many very successful freshwater fish tanks. I had one that was so established it no longer needed a filter and I only had to do water changes every 5 months. I have tried a couple salt tanks (one a joint venture with my brother) and they both had some mixed success. After reading some forums and doing some of the podcasts, it appears one of our biggest blunders was not using live sand or live rock and trying to get it going from “dry” scratch. We also used backpack filters with filter bags and active carbon as the only mode of filtration.

From reading posts and listening to the serious hobbyists, this is what I have, and what I’m planning on going with. Let me know what you think.

What I have:

I have a standard 29 gallon tank. Plain old 2’6” X 1’ tank. (Would like to get bigger, but apartment complex only allows 30 gal or less)

100 watt heater

My plans:

20 pounds live sand + 10 pounds regular sand

25 pounds live fiji rock from LFS (it will be fully cured)

Instant Ocean in 25 gallons of RO water

A backpack filter for a 30 gallon tank filled with a combination of live rock pieces and Seachem Matrix Biofilter Media (http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753906&cp=2767036.2860209&pg=2&fbn=Taxonomy%7CFilter+Media&fbc=1&clickid=topnav_dropdown4_link6&parentPage=family&keepsr=1) I have thought about getting a backpack filter for a 60 gallon tank and filling it with the above mentioned things to make the secondary area bigger.

API Saltwater test kit

Now, that’s my tank and filtration plans. Please let me know what you think about this as an initial setup to get the cycle rolling. I have also heard some people SWEAR by protein skimmers and other people say they hurt filtration because they remove some cool bacteria. I also will get a powerhead eventually, but without any coral I am hoping to wait on that expense (with all the other stuff I'm getting up front).

Even though we don’t plan on rushing anything into the tank, EVENTUALLY we want to have 1 percula, 1 bicolor pseudochromin, 1 cleaner shrimp, a couple small hermit crabs and either a flame hawk or a dwarf angel of some sort (this will be the last fish we add). I feel this is a pretty low bioload for the tank size (3 small fish, a couple crabs and a shrimp). Are these fish all compatible with a reef tank?

Where I really need help is lighting because for some reason, I can’t understand what people are talking about as it pertains to reef lighting and what I need. I know I’m supposed to have around 3-5 watts per gallon for a reef tank, but there are all these different types of light and stuff that no matter how many times I read it, it doesn’t make sense. I know information similar to this has been posted, but since every setup is different, I'm curious as to what people think about my proposed start.

And one last question. I live in Orange County CA. This is going to sound either smart or completely insane. Is it advisable to pull a little water from the ocean and put it in my tank to get some good bacteria in there? Like I said, that could sound completely logical or insane. I'm interested to see which.

Thank you in advance.

Hi Noobeef! Welcome to TR!

Okay....sounds like you're doing your research! Good for you! Have you, by any chance, used this tank for a freshwater system or have you ever dosed copper-based medication in it? If so, you might want to consider trying to get that stuff out of the silicon in the tank. The copper is pretty toxic for most invertebrates.

Filtration - I, and most of those here at TR, are proponents of protein skimming. A skimmer is mostly removing dissolved organic compounds. Bacteria are typically not affected by this. Some people worry about plankton getting ripped to shreds in pumps (which are part of the skimmer compilation); however, they usually do not decimate an entire population. In terms of bacteria, if you are going with live rock and sand, you will have so much bacteria within these substrates - so NO WORRIES!!!! I actually had a huge bacterial bloom in my tank recently and my skimmer actually stopped producing!!! I was almost wishing it would get some of the bacteria out of the tank!

Are you planning on having corals at some point?? If so, I would seriously recommend investing from the get-go in a skimmer!

Your fish load and selection sounds okay for the tank. You're not going with large fish or tangs that need lots of space to swim about.

Lights - again, so much of this depends on what you want to do with the tank...if you want to have corals, then your needs will be much different.

Ocean water - this is debatable. There are a lot of potential parasites in the ocean waters. You would NOT want to get these into your system. In addition, depending on where you collect the water from, there could be a lot of toxins present. People that DO collect water for their systems typically travel a ways out, where the currents are strong and the water is deep, in order to collect clean water. I would recommend starting out with manufactured salt mixes. It's much easier to know what you're working with. If bacteria are your main concern, starting out with live rock and sand would be your best, and safest, bet!

Cool. I am planning on adding coral at some point down the line (4-5 months at least). I don't plan on putting in anything ultra delicate until MUCH later. So for soft corals like some hearty shrooms, etc. what type of light is best?

The tank is new, so no copper in the sealant from ich meds.

Personally, I LOVE T5 lighting. There are more and more tanks using these types of bulbs and are getting just as good of results as MH lighting. They are also more energy efficient.

If you have dough to spend, the Solaris LED lights are also pretty cool, and also very energy efficient. I find it difficult and confusing to talk about watts/gallon, because each tank and lighting system is soooo different.

If you're a handy person, you can even build your own lighting system with the different kits/components. Shrooms don't need a ton of lighting, but if you're wanting to go with corals down the road, then why not start off the appropriate lighting?

Check out some of these links (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/local_links.php?catid=18), where there's hopefully a bit of information to get you going!

Thank you very much. The other question I have is for filtration. Like I said, right now I'm going to go with the backpack filter that came with the tank. I was thinking about getting a 60 gallon ready backpack filter instead thinking at that size it would almost be a mini sump. Or would it be worth my time to creat a 10 gallon sump under the tank in the stand?

IMHO sumps are nice to have...you often can fit much more into them (such as a skimmer!); however, if you can't drill your tank, then maybe that's the best option for you. Do you have space for that kind of backpack filter?

I have space for a 60 gallon backpack filter, yes. Is it worth buying a 60 gallon backpack filter to use over the 30 gallon one the tank came with, or is the difference they would provide negligable?

I'm going to PM our sumpzilla master (JustDavidP) and see what he has to say!

IMHO sumps are nice to have...you often can fit much more into them (such as a skimmer!); however, if you can't drill your tank, then maybe that's the best option for you. Do you have space for that kind of backpack filter?

I was just perusing a cool dealer site (http://glass-holes.com/main.sc) who sells overflow kits and diamond bits for drilling your tank. Even has some tutorials (http://www.momsfishsupply.com/overflowinstallation.html) and instructions for drilling your own tank. The video of someone with a hand-held drill drillling a 1.5" bulkhead even gives me enough confidence to do it myself!

Welcome to TR Noobreef! Good to have another SoCal reefer on board. Make sure to go to that Marine Aquarium Expo (http://www.marineaquariumexpo.com/) in OC in April (in your neighborhood).

I have a standard 29 gallon tank. Plain old 2’6” X 1’ tank. (Would like to get bigger, but apartment complex only allows 30 gal or less)

Hmm... Your problem with that 29g is not the volume so much as the dimensions. 12" from front to back will prove pretty tough to arrange LR and provide space for flow and maintenance. 30" long is OK, but you will have to hang your light fixture, or come up with a custom hood since most fixtures are 24" and 36" long. Not necessarily a deal breaker, but you could pick up another 20-30g tank of better dimensions for relatively cheap ($50). A 30g breeder tank (36lx16dx12h) may serve you better.

20 pounds live sand + 10 pounds regular sand


If you are not planing on a DSB (4+"), an inch or less for SSB is recommended to prevent your bed from being too much of a nutrient sink.

25 pounds live fiji rock from LFS (it will be fully cured)

This is a bit light on the LR, IMHO. I would recommend more like 30-40 pounds.

A backpack filter for a 30 gallon tank filled with a combination of live rock pieces and Seachem Matrix Biofilter Media (http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753906&cp=2767036.2860209&pg=2&fbn=Taxonomy%7CFilter+Media&fbc=1&clickid=topnav_dropdown4_link6&parentPage=family&keepsr=1) I have thought about getting a backpack filter for a 60 gallon tank and filling it with the above mentioned things to make the secondary area bigger.

Like RB, I would recommend a sump in a stand. This will help reduce noise and clutter, provide space for a refugium, and you can add up to 20 more gallons to your system without having the apartment complex know that your tank is more than 30g. ;)

To overcome nitrate accumulation over time (in about 1-1.5 years, many nanos have their nitrates climb to 30ppm and above), I recommend agressive water changes (25%/week) AND efficient protein skimming AND a refugium. Get a good protein skimmer, not a $30-$60 piece of junk. Protein skimming can allow you to feed less sparsely, allowing your fish and corals to thrive.

Now, that’s my tank and filtration plans. Please let me know what you think about this as an initial setup to get the cycle rolling.


Give you tank plenty of time to establish the cycle. Keep track of your parameters, and watch for a major diatom bloom. The diatom bloom is a welcomed sight as it usually means you cycle is nearly established.

Unlike some, I do not think you need a decaying shrimp or other booster in your tank to start the cycle (although it probably cannot hurt); there should be enough decaying stuff that you could not remove from your LR to launch the bacterial process.

I have also heard some people SWEAR by protein skimmers and other people say they hurt filtration because they remove some cool bacteria. I also will get a powerhead eventually, but without any coral I am hoping to wait on that expense (with all the other stuff I'm getting up front).

Cool bacteria. I like the sound of that... :)

Bacteria can multiply at an exponential rate. This thread by Eric Borneman, entitled "The Building of a Reef (tank)" (http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic23945-9-1.aspx) illustrates how bacteria would handily consume the volume of your tank if there wasn't something to stop it. That "something" is a food source, or lack thereof. Our LR and sand provide enough substrate for an immense amount bacteria to live on/within. I wouldn't worry that a Skimmer was removing a small percentage. Your bacteria will grow back in leaps and bounds.

I would get good flow now, to help break up and keep the food and detritus suspended instead of getting trapped in your sandbed and LR. Two Koralia Nanos to provide opposing flow would be perfect.

There is strong argument to get corals first and then fish later. Corals can help you process the nutrients in your tank while deriving a good portion of their needs indirectly from light, while fish are messy and put greater demand on you to add nutrients to the tank. Either way, just go slooooow so the tank biology keeps up with you.

Even though we don’t plan on rushing anything into the tank, EVENTUALLY we want to have 1 percula, 1 bicolor pseudochromin, 1 cleaner shrimp, a couple small hermit crabs and either a flame hawk or a dwarf angel of some sort (this will be the last fish we add).

Hawkfish in general have been known to pick on snails, hermit crabs, ornamental shrimps, and small fishes. They can be pretty aggressive, so proceed with caution, especially in a small tank. If you do chose a flame hawk, add him last, and feed him well.

Where I really need help is lighting because for some reason, I can’t understand what people are talking about as it pertains to reef lighting and what I need. I know I’m supposed to have around 3-5 watts per gallon for a reef tank, but there are all these different types of light and stuff that no matter how many times I read it, it doesn’t make sense. I know information similar to this has been posted, but since every setup is different, I'm curious as to what people think about my proposed start.

I love this topic, even though I believe that flow is as important as light. I too heard 3-5 watts per gallon when I started out, and I (after only 2 years) now know better.

A MH watt is not the same as a PC watt is not the same as a T5 watt is certainly not the same as a LED watt. Think not in watts/gallon but in depth, spread and heat transfer, (and ultimately - PAR). The closer the fixture to the coral, the more PAR there is. Therefore you, could get the same results hanging a 65w fixture hung 6" over a coral than a 130w hung 12" over a coral. A deep 24"+ tank is going to need a much brighter fixture to provide useful radiation on the bottom than a 12" deep tank.

Spread is pretty easy. MH, PC and T5 have very wide spread, and provide decent coverage from front to back in many tanks. For example, a tank can get away with just one MH bulb for every 24" of length. These bulbs cast light in all directions. This is why we use reflectors to recapture some/most of this otherwise lost radiation. The more efficient the reflector, the more radiation your bulb will shed on the tank. You may be able to get along with 20-30% less wattage by having an excellent reflector. Although pricey for T5 fixture, I really like the looks of Aquactinics fixtures for their efficiency and reported minimal heat transfer. Running a tank without the need for a chiller is a big plus in my book.

This brings me to LED fixtures. LED fixtures are terribly expensive and have very narrow spread (perhaps too narrow, making it a bit tricky to cover front to back without hanging the fixture higher). Otherwise, they have little to no heat transfer, can have reduced "leaked" light from your tank(see, limited spread has its benefits :tongue2:), have a long bulb life, can be electronically dimmed and can save 30-40% or more in electric bills. I purchased one of these, and although I like it well enough, sometimes I think I could have done as well with a high end, 4-6 bulb T5 fixture. But then I would be changing bulbs out every 8-12 months. Hmm, I'll stick with the LEDs. :p

And one last question. I live in Orange County CA. This is going to sound either smart or completely insane. Is it advisable to pull a little water from the ocean and put it in my tank to get some good bacteria in there? Like I said, that could sound completely logical or insane. I'm interested to see which.

If you are interested in using natural sea water, you shouldn't draw the NSW yourself. You should buy it from a retailer at $0.60-0.70/gallon, or simply go to the Scripps Institute and try to access their public spigot (but not within 2 weeks after a rainfall). I've never been, but I used to buy NSW from a store that got their water from them. You could google (or search on RC) for the location and access times.

As far as bacteria is concerned, assuming that you are not using dried, baked or otherwise "dead" rock, rely on your LR to provide that for you. Choose your LR wisely. Some people love LR for the bio-diversity, some people revile it and use only dead rock. I found a piece with some beneficial Halimeda alga on it (as well as some other micro algae) and they sprung back to life - even after an extensive "lights out" curing process.

Lastly, since your in OC, check out a Pacific Reef (http://www.pacificreefstores.com/) store closest to you. I keep hearing great things about this mini-chain of stores, but I do not live that far south to make the trip practical.

Whoah.. lots of good advice here :) I was getting from work, to baseball, then to cook dinner and get the kids down... and now.. here I am to read this :) Good thread.

I'm going to comment on a few key points. If you want my drivel about other issues, please do let me know.

You say you don't want to do corals and such right now and were looking to do a "Fish Only with live rock". That's fine, but in the future, if you do want corals, you will have to reconfigure and therefore, spend twice the money. ALL reef configurations can be used for fish only, and if and when you want, you can upgrade lighting and such, and go full blown reef. Your call...my opinion :)

If you go "fish only" the "Backpack" is okay. Basically (for the benefit of readers), you are speaking of a hang on the tank or HOT filter. These are fine for fish only (FO). I use them for my seahorse fry tanks and other fish only systems in my home. Personally, I don't use media in there, but live rock rubble and foam pads to catch detritus. I clean them weekly. You can use these filters, canister filters, whatever your heart desires with a FO. But using them on a system that will eventually house corals and other sessile inverts will result in higher nitrates than you want. (My opinion) I'd invest in a decent HOT skimmer instead, for a tank of that size.

Sumps.... ah...what is there NOT to love about em... they hide equipment from the display, can be configured to hold a refugium ... or not.. and grow some of the funkiest life in your system. Again, my opinion only... if you can do one... do it. Besides all the benefits listed above, you increase your water volume, which is always a good thing. Mother nature is more forgiving when it comes to additional volume.

Fiji rock is dense, as mentioned above, try to equal pound of rock per gallon (more if you can). I love Fiji rock. More porous rock = fewer pounds per gallon.

I'd rethink a dwarf angel in a tank that small. They like to roam. They'd fit...yeah...but be happy? Not sure about that.

If you want to use natural salt water, do listen to the podcast on the topic. There is lots to be said. Bottom line is this, if you can get "good water" (listen to podcast) then go for it. If there is any chance of getting questionable water, pass, and mix your own from a good commercial mix.

Lighting.. it's not that hard. For a fish only, you could use a simple fixture sold from All Glass Aquarium...with the single tube. Basically, it's what is "pretty for you". For corals and other photosynthetic life, you need to replicate the sun. The watts per gallon rule is a good starting point, but is not a perfect recipe. Basically, to reach 4 watt's per gallon for your tank you would need a bulb configuration of 120 watts. See.. 120 divided by 29 = 4.13.... over 4 watts per gallon. Be sure to read about "temperature" of light to ensure that you are in the right kelvin scale for coral and not for algae :)

Dave

I want to thank everyone for the good advice. Ironically, I can only post at work as it's when I have the most time. :rotfl:


You say you don't want to do corals and such right now and were looking to do a "Fish Only with live rock". That's fine, but in the future, if you do want corals, you will have to reconfigure and therefore, spend twice the money. ALL reef configurations can be used for fish only, and if and when you want, you can upgrade lighting and such, and go full blown reef. Your call...my opinion :)

I would love to be able to start off with the corals, but I can't front the money right now (I'm one of those people who refuses to go into debt other than a car or house ;)) for the tank, the skimmer, live rock, live sand, tank stand AND the nifty lighting fixture. I'm hoping I can make it as reef ready as I can now by getting everything but the lights cause I know that will run me close to 200 bucks (maybe a little less).

I wouldn't worry that a Skimmer was removing a small percentage. Your bacteria will grow back in leaps and bounds.

I would get good flow now, to help break up and keep the food and detritus suspended instead of getting trapped in your sandbed and LR. Two Koralia Nanos to provide opposing flow would be perfect.

I'd invest in a decent HOT skimmer instead, for a tank of that size.

I think I will invest in a protein skimmer after reading a few replys like these.

30" long is OK, but you will have to hang your light fixture, or come up with a custom hood since most fixtures are 24" and 36" long.

My LFS has a unit they sell that's 30" that has like 4 different bulbs. It has the blue light bulb and other bulbs. (I'm still not too bright, pun intended, when it comes to lighting so I don't know what the bulbs are all called) It costs 180 bones so I'm going to hold off on that unit until I get some corals.

Sumps.... ah...what is there NOT to love about em... they hide equipment from the display, can be configured to hold a refugium ... or not.. and grow some of the funkiest life in your system. Again, my opinion only... if you can do one... do it. Besides all the benefits listed above, you increase your water volume, which is always a good thing.

OK, I'm interested, but I would like to know how I can set one up WITHOUT drilling the tank. Reefbaby showed me a DIY sump that used a siphoning mechanism. She also gave me the link to Melevesreef.com to show me how to make it. Unfortunately, I would probably flood the entire apartment building and proceed to burn it down with an electrical fire if I made that thing. I would rather develop some sort of pump that pulled the water out like a backpack filter and then dropped it down into the sump then pump it back in from the sump. Simple. Is there anyone who can give me advice on how to make such a contraption? And if it is possible, what should I put in the sump and how should it look when completed? Pictures would be sweet! If that sort of thing is not possible, would it be in my best interest to get a 60 gallon spec backpack filter to create more water volume? It would seem to me (the newbie) that a filter of that size would act almost like a mini-sump. I could be wrong. It's happened before. ;)

Hawkfish in general have been known to pick on snails, hermit crabs, ornamental shrimps, and small fishes. They can be pretty aggressive, so proceed with caution, especially in a small tank. If you do chose a flame hawk, add him last, and feed him well.

Bummer. :cry: In the salt tank I had in the past, he was the coolest little dude in there. Everytime I walked in the room, he jumped around and came right to the front of the tank and watched my every move.

HOT or HOB refers to "hang on tank" or "hang on back" skimmer, which is a skimmer that *literally* hangs on the tank vs. sitting in a sump beneath the tank. If you're not able to build a sump, then this would be the best option for you.

However....back to the sump and overflow...you can ALSO get a HOB overflow! Pretty much what Melevsreef did, you can actually buy from some online vendors. It's a type of box that sits on the back (or side) of the tank, has a siphon that keeps the flow going, and brings the water down to a sump beneath the tank. In the sump, you can have your skimmer, fresh water top-off system, refugium, whatever....and then you just have a pump that pumps the water right back up into the tank!


Here's a couple of links for you:

Marine Depot (http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage~PageAlias~overflow_boxes__index.ht ml)- if your aquarium does not have built-in overflow, CPR Continuous Siphon Overflows/Prefilters are the best means for getting water from an aquarium to a filter system without expensive modifications to the tank.

http://www.f3images.com/IMD/600/CR1511/CR1511_2.jpg

http://www.f3images.com/IMD/600/CR1511/CR1511_99.jpg


I personally have never used one, but I have read good reviews on them....plus, it saves you the hassle of trying to build it yourself!
http://www.f3images.com/IMD/600/CR1511/CR1511_1.jpg

Well, those definitely seem interesting. Something that is concerning me with the siphon method is overflow. If for whatever reason the siphon was broken (algae buildup, something getting caught in the tube, whatever) wouldn't the return pump overflow my tank? And going the other way, if there was a power outage wouldn't the above mechanism empty (until it got to low for the siphon to break) extra watr into my sump until it overflowed?

Well first :welcome: to TR. Wow their a lot to reed to just get to the bottom I guess I should be reading around the forms more often to keep up with everything. Cause I'm pretty new to all this stuff and Wow they gave you allot to read.
About a sump they are a good idea like the others said. Cause since my first tank did take off so good and when I tough my tank plans out again I add a sump and from doing water test to see when the tank is done cycling. I noticed that the levels are not going up as fast as when I set the tank up the first time.
Melev's site is a good one I think anyway. Plus he has his on podcast. Which if you ask me I think it funny. But most people would think their Teenagers running around drinking beer and doing a pobcast at the same time.
Melev has on his site some were but can't seem to find it right now. Probably should have booked mark it. But Melev has some were on his site of how a sump works and how they are usely setup but here is a good pick I found on his site. Melev's Reef - Sump Model A (http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/a/sump_model_a.html) The way i know is cause I 'm looking at making my own sump to save some money and I can make the way I want to work with my setup. Wow I think this is the longest thing I wrote in a long time.

About the Overflow I just noticed what Reefbaby posted. I heard allot of bad stores about cpr and was told if I got one to get a extra pump to keep on hand. Their are float sensors out their that you could get and put in your display tank that would shut the power off to the return pump if the water get to high.

O and one more thing if you didn't fill your tank up yet you could go to you local fish store and get them to drill the tank for you if your worried about losing the siffen and cold save some money in the long run.

O and one more thing if you didn't fill your tank up yet you could go to you local fish store and get them to drill the tank for you if your worried about losing the siffen and cold save some money in the long run.


It's already filled with plain salt water (no rocks, no sand, nothing). Im trying to figure out something in my head right now. I'll get back to you after my lunch trip to Home Depot. ;)

I want to thank everyone for the good advice. Ironically, I can only post at work as it's when I have the most time. :rotfl:

Shhh.. that's what I'm doing.. and as Bobby said, on your tax dollar :)

I would love to be able to start off with the corals, but I can't front the money right now.

Again, in the end (just like I did years ago) you'll spend more money replacing what you purchase for a FO. The filter you are looking at (canisters etc) cost 100 bucks or more. A skimmer for your system is only a few extra dollars. Good choice on the skimmer purchase. I agree, you can hold off on lights for now.

OK, I'm interested, but I would like to know how I can set one up WITHOUT drilling the tank.

Then use an overflow box like Christi showed you. There is no fool proof way of pumping out of the tank, and pumping back in. If either end fails, you still end up with a flood. You probably couldn't match the same pump rate (which you'd need to do) even if you used the same pumps. They all run a little different.


Dave

Wow... I'm soooooo proud of my Talkingreef family.. You are all great lil' salty helpers :)

D

OK. Here’s my thinking. I found a nifty looking gadget (you’ll have to tell me if it’s a good product/company or not) that skims as it overflows. Here is the LINK (http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~OE1318.html) for the gadget. Now it says it will not lose suction and let the tanks overflow in the event of a power outage. I’m a conservative person by nature, so I will want a backup plan. Now for my crude, Microsoft Paint diagram and what it is supposed to be saying.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e9/Pogomako/NoobeefSump.jpg

The sump at the bottom is a 10 gallon aquarium. I figure I will fill it up to around the 4/5ths mark. In the event of a power outage where the O/F unit continues to siphon away, there would be 2 extra gallons room in the tank and plastic container below it to catch any overflow. By the time the sump AND the plastic container are full, the main tank should have lost enough water that the O/F unit can’t suck the water up anymore. In the event of siphon malfunction, I will place the return pump near the top of the water line so it can only overflow the main tank by a gallon at most. I can live with 1 gallon of overflow if it came to that. Once again, this unit is supposed to be overflow proof, but one of the reviews from the customers said their unit did cause an overflow. Is this a good backup plan, or are there fundamental problems involved with my thinking?

Also, if this is a worthy plan, what the heck do I put in the sump? Live Rock? What? I feel like putting the lone heater in the sump is a bad idea. If the return pump OR the O/F unit have something go wrong, the water turns cold and everyone dies. :cry: I may put a second heater in the sump in order to have two in case one goes. So what do you think of my diabolical scheme?

Well I have 2 heaters one big on in my tank and a little 10w in my 10g sump. The reason for in case the power ever goes out and the pump doesn't come back on I still have heat in the tank or if one goes. Plus the heat seems to be even all around the tank better. Since my floor is kinda cold now. With that said you could turn the heater off in the sump in the summer and let it cool the tank down slowly. In the sump you could just put base rock in there. That you can get from a fish store. The overflow box I don't know to much about it but. I saw the same thing when I was looking for one then found out I should have got the balls and just drilled my tank and if it busted just fix it then. But I didn't and got a box for $42 with a U tube and it's been working fine so far. If you don't trust in them to much you could MSG Rob and ask him how his has been. I took the plunge with one cause Rob had one and did drill his tank so I figured that was good enough for me. And if you ask me anything that does two things usely means one of them don't work as good as the other or that just does one. Now about loosing the suction if you don't keep it clean. Ya it could get clogged like anything els.

Okay... the two heaters.. good idea. Most of us do the same.

The overflow.. good idea. I like the self priming and non-siphon qualities.

Now, you need to match your return pump flow, with the overflow capabilities and you should be all set. There seems to be no flow rating listed for it. The aqua lifter system therein is only 3 gallons per hour, but what is the total flow rate capabilities? You'll need to know that in order to match it with the proper return pump.

As long as you run the sump low enough that it can handle whatever water empties during power outages, you will be good to go.

Dave

having two heaters is a good idea....I, like many of us here, have two in my sump....the second one is set to 0.5C lower than the other one, so it only goes on if the temperature drops (i.e., the first heater fails). That way I'm not wasting the wattage with two heaters all the time. Since you DO have a turnover through your sump, there's not a problem with keeping the display tank to the proper temperature. I would advise against putting a heater in the display tank. Not only is it unsightly, but many slow moving creatures, such as snails, can get burned and hurt before they are quick enough to realize that they've latched onto something hot!

In terms of overflowing, or siphoning out your entire tank into your sump, you can also drill a small hole in the overflow siphon....this breaks the flow should the water level drop to a certain point.

Also, rather go with less volume in the sump...this will partly depend on which skimmer you decide to go with. but, don't fill up the sump to full or near-full capacity. There's really no need for it. You can, as Dave has done with his tanks, design a sump that has a refugium compartment in it as well. THIS compartment can have a higher level, with a deep sand bed and macroalgae.

having two heaters is a good idea....I, like many of us here, have two in my sump....the second one is set to 0.5C lower than the other one, so it only goes on if the temperature drops (i.e., the first heater fails). That way I'm not wasting the wattage with two heaters all the time. Since you DO have a turnover through your sump, there's not a problem with keeping the display tank to the proper temperature. I would advise against putting a heater in the display tank. Not only is it unsightly, but many slow moving creatures, such as snails, can get burned and hurt before they are quick enough to realize that they've latched onto something hot!

In terms of overflowing, or siphoning out your entire tank into your sump, you can also drill a small hole in the overflow siphon....this breaks the flow should the water level drop to a certain point.


I think the main reason I want to have a heater in the main tank is if the return pump were to malfunction, hot water wouldn't be getting to the tank which could freeze them. If the power goes out for an extended amount of time, they freeze regardless. But with one in the tank and one in the sump, if the heater in the main tank crashes, they survive. If the return or O/F unit crash, they survive. If the heater in the sump crashes, they survive. As far as the snails go, I'm willing to sacrifice a snail on the off chance he gets too close to the heater at the wrong time if it insures the rest of the tank better. Besides, I could take your route and make the sump one about 1/2 a degree warmer so the main tank one never turns on unless something goes wrong.

I'm less worried about the sump overflowing than I am the main tank. Like I said, I can keep something underneath the sump for emergencies. I can't do much about the tank itself.

I guess it depends on the room temperature of your household. If the return pump were to fail and you were to have no flow from your sump to the display tank....the fish/corals can withstand a slight temperature drop.

In the end...it's up to you...I think it also depends on the size of your set-up. Smaller tanks, of course, would drop in temperature quicker than larger tanks...

I guess it depends on the room temperature of your household. If the return pump were to fail and you were to have no flow from your sump to the display tank....the fish/corals can withstand a slight temperature drop.

In the end...it's up to you...I think it also depends on the size of your set-up. Smaller tanks, of course, would drop in temperature quicker than larger tanks...


It's a 29 gallons, so its a wee little tank. ;)

I still don't know about the sump. It sounds like the right move, but the chance of it overflowing scares me a bit. Actually more than a bit. My entertainment center is pretty close to the tank. A small overflow wouldn't get to it, but a 5 gallon overflow could have some SERIOUS consequences.

You really shouldn't have a problem with it overflowing, if you set it up right. Seriously! It's something that we all worry about, but take precautions for!

You will need to drill a small hole in the intake (from the main display). When the water level drops below that point, it sucks in air and breaks the siphon.

The most important thing is to calculate what this volume would be and to be sure that you leave at LEAST this much space in your sump. That's what I meant with not wanting to fill the sump up too high. Sumps should be constructed to be able to sustain a power outage and handle the amount of water from the display to the point of a siphon break.

Does this make sense??

You will need to drill a small hole in the intake (from the main display). When the water level drops below that point, it sucks in air and breaks the siphon.

You mean on the return right? Cause if he use a overflow box you want it to keep the siphon so when the power comes back on that it will flow water and not overflow the tank.

If you ask me I would drain the tank and get it drilled that is the best way to make sure your tank doesn't over flow and probably the cheapest way to go. I got Diamond drill bit on ebay for like $8 with free shipping and came with a big packet of papers on how to drill a tank and thick glass from Saltydepot on ebay.

Yes, of course, if he's willing to drain the tank (which isn't a huge loss at this point since there are no rocks or sand), that would be the most effective!

:) I drilled mine 2/3 full..but would NOT recommend that to anyone else.

Dave

It's a 29 gallons, so its a wee little tank. ;)

I still don't know about the sump. It sounds like the right move, but the chance of it overflowing scares me a bit. Actually more than a bit. My entertainment center is pretty close to the tank. A small overflow wouldn't get to it, but a 5 gallon overflow could have some SERIOUS consequences.

I was also afraid of a sump when I had my 24g nano-cube, but I made sure to get an overflow tank with minimum points of failure - and now I do not worry much at all. The overflow is more floodproof than the siphon or aqualifter type, but if you feel uncomfortable about it, maybe you should just go the HOT or All-In-One route.

Our efforts here are simply to point you in a direction of lower nitrates, sleeker appearance, quieter operation, and a refuge to cultivate critters. You need to provide a way to reduce nitrates in your system, and a skimmer, significant macro growth, DSB are key parts of that solution. With aggressive (25%/week) water changes and smart feedings and good flow, you can do away with one of those items, but not more than one if you want to keep nitrates from eventually climbing.

With that said, I think there is something fascinating about a DIY all-in-one, and something quite pure/modular about a HOT solution, but in the long term, neither will keep nitrates down low enough for corals unless you find a way to reduce nitrates.

Ways of doing this? Hmm. A 29g is 16-18" tall? How about a 4" DSB, an in-tank Tunze Reefpack 200 ($200 - for running carbon and protein skimming), growing some in-tank macro and have 30 lbs of LR, and two Koralia Nanos for flow. Do 5g water changes every week, and use your stand for an 5g auto-top off reservoir. Bang!

Keeping with the sumpless setup, you could also look at products like the 4g HOT CPR Aquafuge (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=3618), but they wont give you as much fuge real estate as a decent sized sump. Tunze 9002 skimmers are quiet and effective, but new HOT skimmers like this one from Precision Marine (http://www.precisionmarinedirect.com/store/viewItem.asp?idProduct=633) ($160) might be worth looking into.

Dave - do you have a picture of your pipe drills to make it more clear where the siphon should be broken? I don't have any pics here with me to post.

ask and you shall receive. Now, keep in mind, this is for the commercially available U-Tube with directional returns. If you have a lock line return, from PVC plumbing, you simply need to ensure that the directional nozzle is directed upwards, and not set lower in the water column than your sump can handle.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/Return.jpg

See the drill hole there? Just remember, you can drill it all you want, but if you don't keep it clear of coralline algae, green algae etc. you will still siphon. Same goes for snails blocking the hole, but at that point, what control do you have. If you keep the tube clear of algae, to include film, there's a less likely chance that a snail would want to be up there anyway.

Dave

You really shouldn't have a problem with it overflowing, if you set it up right. Seriously! It's something that we all worry about, but take precautions for!

You will need to drill a small hole in the intake (from the main display). When the water level drops below that point, it sucks in air and breaks the siphon.

The most important thing is to calculate what this volume would be and to be sure that you leave at LEAST this much space in your sump. That's what I meant with not wanting to fill the sump up too high. Sumps should be constructed to be able to sustain a power outage and handle the amount of water from the display to the point of a siphon break.

Does this make sense??

I was planning on leaving enough room to allow for some overflow in the event of a power outage. I even had plans to put some sort of plastic dish under the sump to catch the extra water if there wasn't enough room. That's not my main concern. My main concern is if the siphon loses pressure and stops siphoning. Then the return pump keeps returning...and returning...and returning until I have water creeping it's way towards my 46" Bravia. :(

Yesterday I put in 40 pounds of live sand and 22 pounds of live rock. I figured there are about 23-24 gallons of actual water in the tank when at full capacity. I plan on adding a few more pounds of live rock (4-5), but I found the only two that interested me at that store. The others weren't as pretty and/or they were lame in their shape. So by the end of the week I will have over 1.5 pounds of live sand per gallon of water and 1 pound of live rock per gallon.

I am ordering the protein skimmer today online (since both LFSs close to me feel the need to rob you blind on protein skimmers. :madmad:). Right now I have a backpack filter with live rock rubble in it and an empty filter bag. I have the empty bag in to catch up some of the residue from pouring the sand in last night. I plan on taking the bag out this evening when it is fully clear again.

I have literally gone back and forth on the sump like 10 times. It's an hour to hour thing right now. I talked it over with my wife (because we are doing this jointly) and she is against the sump for fear of the overflow. I am sorta for it and I know I could talk her into it IF I have enough facts backing it up, but there are tons of sites and experts who have been at this a long time that have no sump.

Please explain to me what the sump does other than hide your equipment. To me, from what people are saying, it sounds like another fish tank below that just makes your tank bigger. How does the sump act as a filter when it sounds like it's a regular tank? I understand the concept, but if it has live rock and sand (like the main tank) and the same water flows through both of them, what is the difference? I know this will probably sound like a lame question, but I don't get it.

Keeping with the sumpless setup, you could also look at products like the 4g HOT CPR Aquafuge (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=3618), but they wont give you as much fuge real estate as a decent sized sump.

Now this is interesting. This may be a nice compromise to the sump. It seems sorta like a HOT power filter, only clear. Not much is said about that thing, dows it have an intake pump and then just an overflow thing where the water is pushed back into the main tank naturally? That would be ideal as we wouldn't have to worry about overflow. I have plenty of ruum behind my tank for this sort of contraption. But what sort of things do I put in there to make it worth while as a filter?

I also see that it has one with a Protein skimmer built in? What do you think about that skimmer? Does AquaFuge make solid skimmers? Also, would I need the optional light?

It's not "lame" at all. Again, the only dumb questions are the ones not asked...

Yes, the sump increases the water volume. Increased water volume = more forgiving system in cases of salinity swing, over doses of kalk, or other additives, and stability in temperature because it takes longer to heat and cool down larger volumes of water. It also gives you an area to add extra live rock, if you don't want wall to wall rock in your display tank. It hides the ugly pumps and tubes for skimmers and other filtration. It gives you an area to put an extra heater as a back up. It provides an area where you can add top off water, kalk water, and other "additives" where said additives can mix with the system water, and ease shock to the display tank inhabitants. Finally, I also use my sumps as a holding place for any questionable hitch hikers that I need to keep from the display until identified. All in all, I like sumpage!!

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/Mmmm_Sump.gif

Now, with that said, my very first tank had no sump and worked fine. It had the pumps and tubes and all everywhere, which was distracting, but again, it was a very healthy 20 gallon mini reef.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/Nano.jpg

Nobody wants to make a "decision" for you and your reefing pal (congrats by the way, most of us do NOT have understanding spouses.. like this ol' Portugee fisherman says... "she's a keepah".) Most of us have learned the dos and don'ts and just want to pass on our experiences. Heck, less than 3 decades ago, people told us we were nuts trying to keep corals in glass boxes. If we don't experiment, and push the envelope, our hobby will go nowhere.

Dave

Well I'll let the others comment on this more. But the main reason is to add more volume of water. Disaster happens more easily in less water. You could get away from a sump and have a good tank. But you are going to have to do water changes more often and keep a close eye on it. A small tank can turn sawer fast and you need to catch it in time.

I also see that it has one with a Protein skimmer built in? What do you think about that skimmer? Does AquaFuge make solid skimmers?

It looks like a good way for you to go but I don't know about the skimmer much. But you could check my tread I started about http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/filtration/6098-skimmer-advice-29g.html If you need help with finding a good one.:up:

Another big plus to having a separate sump is to have a compartment with a refugium, such as Dave has done with his tanks. Refugiums are awesome! You can have a deep sand bed in the fuge, which will significantly help to reduce/breakdown nitrates. In addition, the fuges are great places for growing macroalgae (another nutrient exporter) and for letting copepods/amphipods and whatever else propagate without the fear of getting eaten! The then release eggs/plankton that make it to the main display as a source of food.

In terms of your flooding....if you plan it right....and this is the trick...then you ONLY have enough water in the sump (or the area that gets pumped back to the main display) as it could possibly hold in case the overflow were to fail
In other words....let's say your display tank holds 50 gallons. But, with the plumbing and how the overflow is set up, it's more like 45 gallons that are actually in there (everyone has a few centimeters extra that can fill the tank). If the return section of your sump holds a maximum of 5 gallons, OR alternatively, if your return pump is placed at a point that it could only RETURN 5 gallons, then you'd be safe...even if everything failed. This doesn't, of course, mean that you can only have 5 gallons in your sump. Sumps are usually divided up into sections. One section could be a refugium and this sections can be filled...it would drain into the main compartment of the sump, which has a lower volume and holds the return pump.

Does this make any sense??!!??

thanks for hanging in there dude....

Another big plus to having a separate sump is to have a compartment with a refugium, such as Dave has done with his tanks. Refugiums are awesome! You can have a deep sand bed in the fuge, which will significantly help to reduce/breakdown nitrates. In addition, the fuges are great places for growing macroalgae (another nutrient exporter) and for letting copepods/amphipods and whatever else propagate without the fear of getting eaten! The then release eggs/plankton that make it to the main display as a source of food.

In terms of your flooding....if you plan it right....and this is the trick...then you ONLY have enough water in the sump (or the area that gets pumped back to the main display) as it could possibly hold in case the overflow were to fail
In other words....let's say your display tank holds 50 gallons. But, with the plumbing and how the overflow is set up, it's more like 45 gallons that are actually in there (everyone has a few centimeters extra that can fill the tank). If the return section of your sump holds a maximum of 5 gallons, OR alternatively, if your return pump is placed at a point that it could only RETURN 5 gallons, then you'd be safe...even if everything failed. This doesn't, of course, mean that you can only have 5 gallons in your sump. Sumps are usually divided up into sections. One section could be a refugium and this sections can be filled...it would drain into the main compartment of the sump, which has a lower volume and holds the return pump.

Does this make any sense??!!??

thanks for hanging in there dude....

It makes sense. It's kinda what I was thinking in that crude picture I drew. Keep the return pump high enough in the sump that it can't pump more than a certain amount back. But I'm kinda digging the idea of the HOT fuge that rroselavy linked. That's pretty cool and I could get some interesting things growing in there. :agree: Speaking of, when it comes to cultivating all these critters, are they things I buy and put in there (macroalgae, worms, copepods/amphipods) or are they just naturally gonna start growing with live rock and sand? Also, is mineral mud (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=7319&rel=1) a good thing to put in the bottom of the fuge, or is live sand better?

Speaking of, when it comes to cultivating all these critters, are they things I buy and put in there (macroalgae, worms, copepods/amphipods) or are they just naturally gonna start growing with live rock and sand? Also, is mineral mud (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=7319&rel=1) a good thing to put in the bottom of the fuge, or is live sand better?

They'll start to reproduce from critters in the live rock, macro from other's tanks (that you will steal :) ) and live sand. You CAN buy some refugium critters, but most friendly hobbyists will just pass along some LR rubble, sand or macro to you.

Mineral mud has its place in some systems, but it can get messy and could cause water problems if not done and cared for properly. Best to start off with live sand and later, put in mud if you want.

Dave

Where should I start looking to rob someone? ;) Will a LFS let me grab some macro algae, and what does it look like by the way?

An LFS will charge you for it.

Since you are in Cali, you'll probably not find (or find it hard to find) caulerpas. Personally, I like chaetomorpha. It looks like this:

http://www.oceanproaquatics.com/shop/images/Chaetomorpha.jpg

I'd poke around and see if there is an OC hobby group. Tie in with them and there will probably be someone there who would love to give you some. They have to harvest it from their refugiums from time to time, since it does grow, and needs to be removed.

Check some of the larger boards like Reef Central, and ask around. Otherwise, it's not that expensive from an LFS. You could get some and then give to others later.

Dave

By the way, I should support/clarify my statement about "not finding caulerpa"...

In California, some bonehead or boneheads, from the hobby and quite possibly, from the public aquarium industry, released water into the Pacific that contained either the algae itself, or parts thereof. It has become such a nuisance, an environmental nightmare, that it has been banned in the hobby over there on the left coast.

Noxious Algae Found In Southern California Coastal Waters (http://swr.nmfs.noaa.gov/hcd/caulerpa.htm)

SCCAT [THE CAULERPA INFORMATION CENTER] Southern California Caulerpa Action Team (http://www.sccat.net/#the-caulerpa-information-center-1e86c5)

Dave

Sorry. Another question. Does a sump/fuge need light, and if so, can a normal flourecent do the job?

Im leaning heavily towards this guy: Medium HOT Fuge (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=3618) along with this protein skimmer: Bak-Pak 2R+ Reef Ready Protein Skimmer (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4392+4412&pcatid=4412)

Is that a solid filtration system when combined with the 40 pounds of live sand and 25 pounds of live rock in my main tank?

I think anything you do should be good enough. The skimmer I don't know but was told AquaC Remora and Tunze. Has a good nano skimmer.

A sump, holding just filtration etc. does NOT need light. A refugium, if used to grow macro, DOES need light. A refugium, holding just sand and rock does NOT need light.

Lighting can be simple. A clip on light, with a fluorescent bulb (6500 K) is fine. I use this:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/loa.jpg

You can get them at Home Depot cheap. They can mount under a big tank stand. If you are using a hang on refugium, the tank lighting will probably suffice. Otherwise, products like the CPR hang on, come with a little light.

Dave

Now this is interesting. This may be a nice compromise to the sump. It seems sorta like a HOT power filter, only clear. Not much is said about that thing, dows it have an intake pump and then just an overflow thing where the water is pushed back into the main tank naturally? That would be ideal as we wouldn't have to worry about overflow. I have plenty of ruum behind my tank for this sort of contraption. But what sort of things do I put in there to make it worth while as a filter?

I also see that it has one with a Protein skimmer built in? What do you think about that skimmer? Does AquaFuge make solid skimmers? Also, would I need the optional light?

I'll continue to play the part of the devils-advo sumpless guy (even though I now swear by them :tongue2:)...

IMHO, I would steer clear of the CPR Aquafuge PS (with skimmer). Have I ever had one? No - so I cannot vouch for its ability to draw gunk out of the water. I can predict, however that you will probably get a better HOT skimmer elsewhere. Skimmers are notoriously difficult to design optimally, combining it with the fuge probably involves compromise. Closely compare the Aquafuge PS skimmer to CPR's BakPak skimmers. If you see noticeable design differences, then more than likely the Aquafuge PS skimmer has more compromises. A separate skimmer will probably have much longer dwell time for the bubbles.

With that said, I urge you to do some searches on NR (http://www.nano-reef.com) to find real user feedback. There are also units for sale there sometimes that you can pick up for up to 50% off. A recent sale (http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=150712&view=findpost&p=1550480) for a very clean looking unit (older non-PS model with the clear back and no light shield) just sold for $80. I like NR because there is always a fervor for DIY mods to overcome the limitations of the AIO nano products. Some real ingenuity sometimes surfaces.

The Aquafuge is the same concept as an upstream refugium. You could make your own by drilling a single hole in a second small tank for a bulkhead with return pipe. into a small tank and having that tank raised slightly higher than your 29. Pump water into the fuge, and it will drain back into your tank. One NR member even bought two Acrylic Seaclear tanks of identical length (but different heights just so he could plumb such a fuge. The CPR just hangs off the edge of your tank and has some baffles, but is essentially the same thing. There are a couple of companies making similar products, but CPR seems to have the best quality/cost ratio.

Sorry. Another question. Does a sump/fuge need light, and if so, can a normal flourecent do the job?

Im leaning heavily towards this guy: Medium HOT Fuge (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=3618) along with this protein skimmer: Bak-Pak 2R+ Reef Ready Protein Skimmer (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4392+4412&pcatid=4412)

Is that a solid filtration system when combined with the 40 pounds of live sand and 25 pounds of live rock in my main tank?

A fuge doesn't need light unless you want to grow macro. Fortunately, as DaveP mentioned, this just needs to be a 5000-6700k bulb (for optimum growth spectrum), and can be as simple as a flourescent flood bulb or simple PC tubes. I have a 6500k LED fixture (http://www.nanocustoms.com/product_info.php?cPath=17&products_id=19) that chews up only 5 watts and has a 5+ year bulb life, but is as bright as a 13-15w PC. You could probably get a small 13-18w PC Finnex (http://finnex.net/itemdetail.php?id=19) light for $35-40 that would fit neatly over the Aquafuge and do quite well.

The CPR Bakpak may perform OK, perhaps as well as a Remora, but if you are going to spend $140 on a new skimmer - I would make sure to get one that is also quiet. My Remora is fine in an office environment, but I think it is too loud for a bedroom, den or in a room with an AV system. I think the Tunze 9002 is supposed to be the quietest, but that skimmer hangs inside your tank. The plus is that it is a less ugly to look at then a powerhead dangling in your display. I still vote for the Tunze Reefpak 200 so you have a place to stick carbon.

Oh and yeah - these HOT skimmers tend to let some micro-bubbles escape back into your display. No harm to the display, but you may grow tired of looking at them, or having to turn off your skimmer every time you wish to take a picture. My Remora is a micro-bubble factory!

Your choice.

The Aquafuge is the same concept as an upstream refugium. You could make your own by drilling a single hole in a second small tank for a bulkhead with return pipe. into a small tank and having that tank raised slightly higher than your 29. Pump water into the fuge, and it will drain back into your tank. One NR member even bought two Acrylic Seaclear tanks of identical length (but different heights just so he could plumb such a fuge. The CPR just hangs off the edge of your tank and has some baffles, but is essentially the same thing. There are a couple of companies making similar products, but CPR seems to have the best quality/cost ratio.

I could use this stand (http://www.petco.com/product/13738/Penn-Plax-Tank-Stands.aspx) along with some stuff stacked on top to hold a tank up above by a few inches. Now the problem is finding someone to drill a hole in a glass tank for me. Worst case scenario, I could grab a tank like this (http://www.petco.com/Shop/Product.aspx?sku=796476) to use. The large one is 3 gallons and its plastic so I could easily drill a hole in that one myself. Total price would be somewhere in the neighboorhood of 75-80 bucks with a water pump. Obviously that doesn't include a light, live rock and live sand, but the small aquafuge (which has less space) is going for about 120 bucks not counting shipping. Not sure if it's better or not, but that "design" I just came up with would allow for more surface area on the bottom of the refugium as well.

Well you could make your sump out of whatever you want I even seen piks were people used a plastic tot like rubbermaid.

:welcome: to TR Noobeef
WOW! This thread has had a lot of traffic in 2 days!

Here is the link to http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/podcast-episodes/240-natural-seawater-podcast-episode-30-a.html

I could use this stand (http://www.petco.com/product/13738/Penn-Plax-Tank-Stands.aspx) along with some stuff stacked on top to hold a tank up above by a few inches. Now the problem is finding someone to drill a hole in a glass tank for me. Worst case scenario, I could grab a tank like this (http://www.petco.com/Shop/Product.aspx?sku=796476) to use. The large one is 3 gallons and its plastic so I could easily drill a hole in that one myself. Total price would be somewhere in the neighboorhood of 75-80 bucks with a water pump. Obviously that doesn't include a light, live rock and live sand, but the small aquafuge (which has less space) is going for about 120 bucks not counting shipping. Not sure if it's better or not, but that "design" I just came up with would allow for more surface area on the bottom of the refugium as well.

Hmm.. 3 gallons is kinda small. I would aim for 4-5 as a minimum. I was thinking about a 10g AGA tank (which costs about $12 at Petco) drilled ($15 diamond bit (http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/Plumbing-and-Pumps-Schedule-80-Plumbing-Diamond-Glass-Drill-Bits/c14_15_41/index.html), borrowed hand drill, $4 plumbers putty), $17 Maxijet 900, and some $4 tubing. About $40 not including lights ($10/gallon).

Breaking a $12 tank is not so costly, but the glass on the 10g is pretty thin; drilling 1/8" glass may be a bit more precarious than 1/4" glass.

I would rather see you buy a used 4g+ CPR Aquafuge at $80 (search craigslist.com in your area) rather than spend the same amount on a more gangly 3g arrangement. How about this large factory-seconds "minor blemishes" CPR Aquafuge for $89 (http://cgi.ebay.com/CPR-Aquafuge-Hang-On-Refugium-Large-Factory-Seconds_W0QQitemZ280190939032QQihZ018QQcategoryZ46 310QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQ_trksidZp1638.m118.l12 47QQcmdZViewItem). Wow. At that price - I may buy one!

Just remember to leave 5" clearance behind your tank to hang an Aquafuge...

How about this large factory-seconds "minor blemishes" CPR Aquafuge for $89 (http://cgi.ebay.com/CPR-Aquafuge-Hang-On-Refugium-Large-Factory-Seconds_W0QQitemZ280190939032QQihZ018QQcategoryZ46 310QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQ_trksidZp1638.m118.l12 47QQcmdZViewItem). Wow. At that price - I may buy one!

Just remember to leave 5" clearance behind your tank to hang an Aquafuge...

THANKS for the link! :cheers:

I have another question that's sorta off topic with this one. I put some more live rock in the tank yesterday. I'm now up to around 36 pounds and there's roughly 24 gallons of actual water in the tank. (So I reached the 1.5 per gallon mark :agree:) But I realized this morning that the tank is starting to smell. It's not an obnoxious smell, but it's not particularly nice. Is it simply the fact that it's a new tank and the smell is from live rock die off? I didn't think it would smell this bad this quickly so I'm a little concerned about it. :o

That normal for the first 1-2 weeks. But make sure you got your test kits and test every so often so you can see when your tank is done cycling. like everyday or every other I say after the first week I would start testing. O and a reminder change 5g every week to.

That normal for the first 1-2 weeks. But make sure you got your test kits and test every so often so you can see when your tank is done cycling. like everyday or every other I say after the first week I would start testing. O and a reminder change 5g every week to.

So the live rock stinking up my tank a bit is a normal part of the process? I plan on doing a 2 gallon water change tonight (started the tank on Tuesday) and then a full 5 gallons next Tuesday. I also plan on putting an extra powerfilter on with some nitrate reducing media and a filter bag. I want the filter bag in there for a few days to catch all the dust from the live sand.

I have never tried to cycle a tank before without a skimmer, so I can imagine that it will take longer. There is always a bit off die-off on the live rocks, even if they've already been cycled at the LFS. This is normal.

However, you should refrain from doing water changes until you know that you've gone through your cycle. You need to build up the number of bacteria in order for them to convert all the ammonia and nitrates. Get some test kits: measure ammonia, nitrates, nitrite, pH in the beginning. Once you're rounding the bend of the tank cycle, then you can do a water change.

That sounds good. ya it will stink really good for a couple of days. I got uncured rock and cured it in my room and had to leave the door open all the time. I could have passed out from the fumes.

=Reefbaby;72883However, you should refrain from doing water changes until you know that you've gone through your cycle.

well I just did a water change on my tank but had it cycling for about 2weeks before I put the live rock in and just put the rock in 2 days before doing a water change. So should I hold off on water changes for 2weeks?

test your water...let's see what your parameters look like. If you change the water too frequently, or too soon, you're never going to build up the population of bacteria that you need to get over the hump of your cycle. Be patient...let's see what your values are. :)

I have never tried to cycle a tank before without a skimmer, so I can imagine that it will take longer. There is always a bit off die-off on the live rocks, even if they've already been cycled at the LFS. This is normal.

However, you should refrain from doing water changes until you know that you've gone through your cycle. You need to build up the number of bacteria in order for them to convert all the ammonia and nitrates. Get some test kits: measure ammonia, nitrates, nitrite, pH in the beginning. Once you're rounding the bend of the tank cycle, then you can do a water change.


I'm going to get a skimmer in the next day or two (or at least order one online since LFS likes to kill you on those. So no water changes despite the smell? I was thinking a couple gallons to get some freshness in there after the never touched water got bombarded with all sorts of goodies (36 pounds live rock and 45 pounds of live sand).

test your water...let's see what your parameters look like. If you change the water too frequently, or too soon, you're never going to build up the population of bacteria that you need to get over the hump of your cycle. Be patient...let's see what your values are. :)

OK. I'll check them tonight. I'm still gonna put that extra powerfilter on though with a bag because the tank needs a little help collecting some of that stupid dust from the sand. It has sort of been stuck at the same cloudiness for a while now. There was an initial settling, but it seems to be sort of stuck at it's current cloudiness.

well hear or my # since I was taking them for my tank page
Ph7.8
Ammonia 1-2 ppm
Nitrite 5 mg/h
Nitrate 10 mg/h

You'll be pleasantly surprised when the cycle is done. The low tide smell will be replaced with crisp, fresh, salty beach smells :)

Dave

You'll be pleasantly surprised when the cycle is done. The low tide smell will be replaced with crisp, fresh, salty beach smells :)

Dave


Gotta love those low tide smells. :sick: I grew up in Dana Point, CA. I was close enough to the beach that those low tide smells would blow in off the harbor at times. BUT most of the time it was that wonderful crisp beach smell. :D

Question about lighting. Would this light be sufficient for a reef tank of my size? (29 gallons with 30"L x 12"W x 18"H)

BriteLite

SmartLite fixtures feature a marine grade, black powder-coated metal housing with built-in reflector for maximum light output. The fixture have electronic ballasts to ensure that the light operates at optimal efficiency. It has on/off switch and grouned power cord. It is also ventilated for cool operation.

Includes 8800K PowerCompact bulbs for use with freshwater or marine tanks.

BL30155 30”x6”x4” 1-55 watt Ultra-Daylight

Ebay Link (http://cgi.ebay.com/BriteLite-by-CSL-30-55w-Power-Compact-PC-NIB_W0QQitemZ280074454576QQihZ018QQcategoryZ46314Q QtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262)

well if I was you I would go and list to all the podcast especially the 3 part one on lights.

well if I was you I would go and list to all the podcast especially the 3 part one on lights.

Unfortunately I'm at work and listening to podcasts isn't possible. Forum chat all day long :), but throwing on headphones and listening to podcasts is pushing it. lol

Bottom line.. 'fraid not. Would be pretty light, for a fish only, but if you want to keep photosynthetic critters, it'd be sub-par (no pun intended). Double that light...and you are closer but not perfect :) I have 110W over my bowfront and can't keep zoanthids happy. If you want to keep SPS corals, clams and other specimens with "intense light" needs, you are talking about 200+ watts.

The other thing to keep in mind is the temperature of the lighting. The "Kelvin" rating. The rating of natural sunlight at sea level is 5500K. You may also want a fixture with two switch components; one for the actinic blue bulbs you will want, and one for the "full spectrum" bulbs. We often have them on timers so the actinic blue light comes on first, followed thereafter by the full spectrum and at the end of the photoperiod, full spec off, followed by actinic blue. It better replicates the natural rise and set of the sun.

Dave

Bottom line.. 'fraid not. Would be pretty light, for a fish only, but if you want to keep photosynthetic critters, it'd be sub-par (no pun intended). Double that light...and you are closer but not perfect :) I have 110W over my bowfront and can't keep zoanthids happy. If you want to keep SPS corals, clams and other specimens with "intense light" needs, you are talking about 200+ watts.

The other thing to keep in mind is the temperature of the lighting. The "Kelvin" rating. The rating of natural sunlight at sea level is 5500K. You may also want a fixture with two switch components; one for the actinic blue bulbs you will want, and one for the "full spectrum" bulbs. We often have them on timers so the actinic blue light comes on first, followed thereafter by the full spectrum and at the end of the photoperiod, full spec off, followed by actinic blue. It better replicates the natural rise and set of the sun.

Dave

So explain something like this guy.

Light fixture (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380006442377&ih=025&category=46314&_trksid=p3984.m106&_trkparms=algo%3DMESSL%26itu%3DSS%252BSI%26otn%3D2 5%26po%3DOp1%26ps%3D15)

It's listed at 130 Watts (65X2) It comes with a 12000K bulb and a 460nm actinic. Is the 12000k bulb practically useless because it's over twice the Kelvin rating that takes place at natural sea level?

In order to make things bright enough, would I have to get two of those things and buy 3 new full spectrum bulbs that run at 5500k in order to get a wattage of around 195 + once actinic light to simulate the sunset?

Im not trying to waste your time with "What If" questions. For me, using examples like this is the best way for me to learn.

10K is a crisp white bulb. 12K has more blue to it. There are 14K bulbs that are even more on the blue side. If you are going to have actinic supplementals, I'd go with 10K.

These are far from useless, they are intense :) While 5500K is what temperature the sun is at the bottom of a reef, and it DOES promote growth of algaes and corals etc., it is VERY YELLOW in our tanks. 10K contains the "Full Spectrum". It is what most people are using in lighting. It meets the corals' needs and is also visually appealing to OUR eyes.

2X65watts = 130 total watts of power, over a 29 gallon tank would be in and around 4.4 watts per gallon. This "watts per gallon" rule is just a "rule of thumb" but it is close enough for Government Work ;) In any case, most of us shoot for 5 WPG or more.

Dave

well I have a light like this and think it's good Compact Fluorescent Aquarium Lighting: Single Satellite Compact Fluorescent Fixtures (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+11418&pcatid=11418)

2X65watts = 130 total watts of power, over a 29 gallon tank would be in and around 4.4 watts per gallon. This "watts per gallon" rule is just a "rule of thumb" but it is close enough for Government Work ;) In any case, most of us shoot for 5 WPG or more.

Dave

Now the fact that only one of the bulbs is full spectrum and the other is actinic blue bulb, does that affect the wattage hitting the tank? Or is it the total wattage hitting the tank period?

Personally, I don't even include actinic lighting in my overall equations. I use the full spectrum power and temperature when trying to match the needs of the corals and inverts. Most often, it's because I use two different systems (i.e. Metal halide for full spec and VHO, T5 or lesser PC for actinic) and think of the actinics as "supplemental" lighting, providing the blue spectrum.

I also use moon lights at night, but do not factor the LEDs in either.

If you used 14K bulbs, you'd introduce the blue spectrum into the system, without having to use the actinic bulbs.

They also now make bulbs where 1/2 is full spec and 1/2 of the tube is actinic.

Dave

So I'm thinking this light (http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage~PageAlias~lighting_powercompact_co mpact-fluorescent_current-usa_orbit_sunpaq_fixtures.html) while switching out the the Actinic 03/7100K Blue PowerCompact Bulb for a 65 Watt Actinic 03 / 10000K White (50 / 50) PowerCompact Bulb would be a good light setup for some soft corals and shrooms. That's all I'm really looking to get into.

And since I like to jump around all over the place, was it a mistake for me to put in that much live rock since it increases the die off exponentially? I'm assuming that the live rock die off will come back to life quicker than it would take for the planting of a few small live rock on base rock to take root? Reading over that, I'm not sure if it makes sense. :D

So I'm thinking this light (http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage~PageAlias~lighting_powercompact_co mpact-fluorescent_current-usa_orbit_sunpaq_fixtures.html) while switching out the the Actinic 03/7100K Blue PowerCompact Bulb for a 65 Watt Actinic 03 / 10000K White (50 / 50) PowerCompact Bulb would be a good light setup for some soft corals and shrooms. That's all I'm really looking to get into.

I have the same Current Orbit fixture 2x65w + white LED moonlight) over my 20g QT at work, but in the 24" length. It is a pretty decent fixture, but I haven't kept anything in there long enough to know how well it would do. The fixture also has 3 cords, so you can do the quasi dawn-to-dusk effect if you wish. Many people prefer blue moonlights, but you could simply cover the LED with a lighting gel (blue cellophane) if you want to make it blue.

And since I like to jump around all over the place, was it a mistake for me to put in that much live rock since it increases the die off exponentially? I'm assuming that the live rock die off will come back to life quicker than it would take for the planting of a few small live rock on base rock to take root? Reading over that, I'm not sure if it makes sense. :D

If the LR you added last has more decaying matter than what was in there initially, you basically just extended the time it will take to establish your cycle. No big whoop, Reef keeping is all about patience. Besides - I like decay, it is the smell of bacteria being fed. :)

Seriously, generating more Ammonia in your tank due to increased decay runs the risk of killing some beneficial hitch-hikers that may be on/in your LR. Odds are however, that these hitch-hikers have already been exposed to harsh temps and conditions - so they may be hardy enough to live. I've always been lucky by getting numerous Peanut worms (Sipunculids) on my LR, and I have even them survive being submerged in a cold (70 F) tank without circulation for a few months.

Experts like Calfo and Borneman have admitted to coddling their LR to maintain the life on it. This means close inspection and removal of decaying material, more careful monitoring and water change outs during the curing process. Calfo has also recollected the "old" days when a box of LR used to come with all sorts of crabs, stars and other hitchikers that are no longer seen today.

As far as algae is concerned, I wouldn't worry. If your Ammonia reaches a sustained spike, you could do a water change.

My live rock actually had some nice stuff on it before it started smelling. I saw a tiny starfish, some sort of slug with a flat shell on it's back and a tiny crab of some sort. After two days, my ammonia read out at 4.0. Reading around, that seems pretty typical as it pertains to ammonia spikes.

THANKS for the link! :cheers:

I have another question that's sorta off topic with this one. I put some more live rock in the tank yesterday. I'm now up to around 36 pounds and there's roughly 24 gallons of actual water in the tank. (So I reached the 1.5 per gallon mark :agree:) But I realized this morning that the tank is starting to smell. It's not an obnoxious smell, but it's not particularly nice. Is it simply the fact that it's a new tank and the smell is from live rock die off? I didn't think it would smell this bad this quickly so I'm a little concerned about it. :o

I just looked at the S&H on this and it was almost $46 to my house. A quick search showed some other places selling it for about the same total price and at at least 1 if you ordered $175 total (who can't find another ~$30 to spend) you got free S&H.

So I'm thinking this light (http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage%7EPageAlias%7Elighting_powercompac t_compact-fluorescent_current-usa_orbit_sunpaq_fixtures.html) while switching out the the Actinic 03/7100K Blue PowerCompact Bulb for a 65 Watt Actinic 03 / 10000K White (50 / 50) PowerCompact Bulb would be a good light setup for some soft corals and shrooms. That's all I'm really looking to get into.

And since I like to jump around all over the place, was it a mistake for me to put in that much live rock since it increases the die off exponentially? I'm assuming that the live rock die off will come back to life quicker than it would take for the planting of a few small live rock on base rock to take root? Reading over that, I'm not sure if it makes sense. :D

I think that this would be a good light for what you are wanting to keep. I started out with a Oddysea PC and it was OK but not wonderful. I think the Current light may be of a better quality and come with better bulbs.

You may end up being like me and wanting to keep things that need more light and upgrading the lights later. I ended up going with a Solaris and I am really happy with it. They are pricey initially but are energy efficient and the LED's have a long life so over the years they end up being more cost effective.

I think that this would be a good light for what you are wanting to keep. I started out with a Oddysea PC and it was OK but not wonderful. I think the Current light may be of a better quality and come with better bulbs.

You may end up being like me and wanting to keep things that need more light and upgrading the lights later. I ended up going with a Solaris and I am really happy with it. They are pricey initially but are energy efficient and the LED's have a long life so over the years they end up being more cost effective.


Yeah, I saw the Oddysea's and they were certainly cheaper, but then I did some research and saw they started some fires. I thought about it and came to the conclusion that my apartment burning down may raise the sulfites in my tank.:|

Yeah, I saw the Oddysea's and they were certainly cheaper, but then I did some research and saw they started some fires. I thought about it and came to the conclusion that my apartment burning down may raise the sulfites in my tank.:|
Not to mention that the flames may crack your tank!

Update:

After almost a full week, the ammonia levels have dropped from 4 (on Thursday) down to around .75 last night. The only problem I see is there seems to be a lot of waste on the live rock and some on the top of the substrate (fallen off the live rock). I'm surprised with all the visible waste that the ammonia levels are dropping. That low tide smell has also lessened quite a bit and is almost completely gone. I plan on adding 7 blue tangs tomorrow. :up:















Totally kidding about the last part.

I plan on adding 7 blue tangs tomorrow. :up:

Totally kidding about the last part.

Oh ya kill me :)

Yeah, some of the "die off" is actually going to recuperate and will probably make a come back. It may not look good now, but it's probably past decomposing. If there is some on the sand, you could siphon it off, but I'd not worry, the clean up crew will make off with it quickly... as would the 7 tangs ;)

Dave

Oh ya kill me :)

Yeah, some of the "die off" is actually going to recuperate and will probably make a come back. It may not look good now, but it's probably past decomposing. If there is some on the sand, you could siphon it off, but I'd not worry, the clean up crew will make off with it quickly... as would the 7 tangs ;)

Dave

Who would you recommentd I "hire" for my clean up crew? I've read different opinions of who needs to be there first. What's your's?

Snails are pretty sensitive to water swings (osmotic shock is nasty...exploding snail cells and such). For that reason alone, I hire crabs first :) Blue legged and Scarlet hermit crabs. I also use emerald crabs (mythrax) but others are afraid of them. I've never had one behave badly.

When adding snails, after the tank is stable, you should "match the hatch". Don't get snails that eat green algae (Turbinidae, Trochidae, Cerithiidae & Astraeinae), until you have some algae starting in the system on the glass, rock or sand. Don't get ones that eat meaty foods, like Nassarius, until you begin feeding the system in earnest :) It's as easy as that.

When I stock snails, I go for a mix of traditional mexican turbos and astreas. Astreas are NOT my favorite. If they fall over, they can quickly become food to the hermit crabs. If you can find some "banded trochus", you'll be better off. They are built like the whimpy astreas, but they have a black foot, and are stronger, and can right themselves if they fall, shell first into the sand. I also use nassarius. Just love em :) My "night of the living dead" snails. They stay buried in the sand with their siphons sticking out, and when food hits the water, "wham" they come up like zombies from the graves :) They do a great job of stirring the top layer of sand, and find ANY AND ALL scraps of food or detritus left in those hard to get places.

Ah..and speaking about "hard to get places". I employ a serpent star to help me keep my rocks void of rotting matter. They are great for this. You DO have to target feed them from time to time as they fumble around blindly searching for food, and often don't get their fair share. I pass shrimp or cubes of "formula" products to it once a week or so.

I steer away from cucumbers and such, as they can really ruin the water if they are grumpy. Something as simple as being picked on by another tank mate, or a drastic swing in water quality and whammo..they release their guts and other toxins and make a mess.

I do keep peppermint and skunk cleaners, but they too are skittish when it comes to water quality. Best to wait until the system is stable there.

Dave

Who would you recommentd I "hire" for my clean up crew? I've read different opinions of who needs to be there first. What's your's?

Your question seems to be directed at Dave, but I will give you my list:

I start with snails, but add them gradually so as not to starve them (or require me to feed them). I work up to a final count of 1 snail for every two gallons.

Astraea Snails (http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=563) - LR and glass cleaners; These snails have a cone shaped shell, and need help when they fall upside down.
Nassarius Snails (http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=1763) - Great substrate mixers. Opportunistic feeders of leftover foods and supposedly detritus. It is great to see them emerge in response to feeding time.
Cerith Snails (http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=1159) -I have read that these are great detritus eaters. They seem to come in Mexican and Carribean varieties. These will be my next addition
Tongan Fighting Conch (http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=2174) - Some say these are best for larger aquariums, since they can grow to 4" in size. I had 2 in my nano, and they always seemed to be grazing, and did not appear to grow more than 1/4" in a year. They have been transferred to my 55g.

As far as crabs are concerned, much has been said on the questionable if not deleterious effect of crabs in the reef aquarium. I chose to get a few red legged hermits (http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=620) which seem to be quite harmless and hardy, but I have no idea whether they have any beneficial impact.

I also got a few Zebra hermits (http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=613) from IPSF (http://www.ipsf.com/) (described as "micro-hermits") which are much more active than the red legged hermits, and a couple have doubled in size after switching to larger shells. One particular zebra hermit likes to repeatedly perch himself atop my Caulastrea furcata (for unknown reasons) so I use the turkey baster suction to gently lift him off and airlift him to the far reaches of the aquarium. Not sure if the Candy Cane minds all to much, but I cannot imagine that the crab is doing any good.

I also have one Emerald Mithrax Crab (http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=628), which is known to eat bubble algae along with leftover food and other algae. Mine always hides in the shadows of the LR, often reaching up to grab its food from the exposed areas of the rocks. They are also known to go for small fish, but I have never witnessed that behavior.

Also, I have some IPSF (http://www.ipsf.com/) micro-brittle stars, bristle worms, and cleaner clams to the tank to increase diversity. These live in the DSB/under the rock - so I have no great sense of their impact. Supposedly, they will multiply given the right environment.

Scott,

Those "cleaner clams" don't look like this do they?

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/clams.jpg

Dave

Not to Hijack this thread...but if you buy "cleaner clams", read this:

http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/clams/3547-warning-cleaner-clams.html

I've found a LOT of folks selling cold water, Atlantic Quahogs (Mercenaria mercenaria) as cleaner clams for tropical reef tanks. This simply will not work. Yeah, they may live for a little while, but when they pass (and they will) they make a mess.

Dave

Scott,

Those "cleaner clams" don't look like this do they?

David-

They look similar, but it is my understanding that these small 5/8" clams that I bought from IPSF (under the "Sandbed Clam" moniker) (http://www.ipsf.com/sandbedclams.html) are of the Tapes genus, and are propagated at their facility in Kailua-Kona, Hawaii (http://www.ipsf.com/about.html). I assume that this would make them different than an Atlantic Quahog ( as you have stated genus Mercenaria), but that is only an assumption. My use of the term "Cleaner Clam" may have been in error. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, as I am new to this.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/007/y5720e/y5720e0y.jpg

PS... if you want to dismiss my information, and are interested in purchasing some of these "Cleaner Clams", please contact me. I get them by the bushel in the warmer months and before turning them in to "Clams Casino" or "Dave's Famous New England Clam Chowder", I'll put some aside for you

Not to highjack this too much further, but it seems (from his referenced thread) as if David has found a good use of the Quahog. I say we all descend on his Falmoth home this summer for a real New England Clam bake!

:party:

Question about the cleanup crew.

I have a 29 gallon tank with about 22-23 gallons of water. How many snails, crabs, etc would you all recommend?

Also, does the cleanup crew count towards bioload? Meaning, do I have to sacrifice fish in order to have a complete cleanup crew? I want to have clown, dottyback and one more smallish fish along with a school of 4 chromids. (All this will be done slowly BTW.)

Wow Hi Noobeef just stopping by to see how everything is going. From the sounds of it looks like your doing good think about the clean up crew I see. Ya I starting to think about mine to. But thinking of add more rock to it first. Then going to wait about 2 weeks to see what it does.

But one thing did you go with the HOB sump or what?
Let's see some picks.

I posted this in the equipment section but figured I'd throw it up here too.

I got this skimmer: CPR BAK-PAK 2R , Reef Ready. I'm getting good foam in the chamber and a nice return. But the collection cup keeps overflowing. It just keeps slowly filling up until the top starts to rattle and then trickle. Not sure what to do to stop this as there only seems to be one way in or out of the collection cup.

I posted this in the equipment section but figured I'd throw it up here too.

I got this skimmer: CPR BAK-PAK 2R , Reef Ready. I'm getting good foam in the chamber and a nice return. But the collection cup keeps overflowing. It just keeps slowly filling up until the top starts to rattle and then trickle. Not sure what to do to stop this as there only seems to be one way in or out of the collection cup.

I just glanced at the setup instructions (http://www.cpraquatic.com/pdf/bakpak2R+.pdf) , and it appears you have 2 ways to adjust the skimmer's efficacy. There is an rubber "O" ring that can be slid up/down to make the skimmate wet when the cup is lower, or dry (or drier) when the cup is higher. Also, there is a "Air Control Valve" at the end of your Venturi airline that can be open to varying degrees to adjust air intake.

These two adjustments should serve you well. On my Elos NS500 skimmer, my skimmer would also overflow if the airflow is unrestricted. There is a miniature clamp that pinches the airline, and mine is almost closed!

Unless you have additives or something else that would temporarily make your skimmer go crazy, I would start by raising the collection cup (by lowering the "O" ring) and close down your airline until the bubbles normally ascend 3/4 up the throat of your collection cup. Wait 12 hours to see how much and how dark the skimmate is. If nothing is produced, open the airline just a little more and wait another 12 hours. Keep adjusting this way until you get some dark skim.

If your skimmate is always very watery, make sure you keep a close eye on your salinity. Remember that you are exporting salt water along with your skim, so it has to be replaced somehow.

Let us know how it performs. It sounds like it may be a decent skimmer...

Raise the cup and let it break in. Newer tanks tend to have higher water surface tension from all the hands in it, new plastics etc. It will break in fine. They're good little skimmers. Raise that cup and let it run real dry for a spell. Then lower it a 16th of an inch at a time until you find a happy medium.

SCOTT... You've got yourself Pacific hard shell clams. They can take tropical temperatures. I'd still worry about them upsetting a deep sand bed in a refugium, but if they are not in that kind of environment, no worries. Let us know how long you've had them, and how they do. I'm very interested.

Dave

PS... if any of you are on Cape Cod, you're always welcomed :)

Dave

Raise the cup and let it break in. Newer tanks tend to have higher water surface tension from all the hands in it, new plastics etc. It will break in fine. They're good little skimmers. Raise that cup and let it run real dry for a spell. Then lower it a 16th of an inch at a time until you find a happy medium.

SCOTT... You've got yourself Pacific hard shell clams. They can take tropical temperatures. I'd still worry about them upsetting a deep sand bed in a refugium, but if they are not in that kind of environment, no worries. Let us know how long you've had them, and how they do. I'm very interested.

Dave

PS... if any of you are on Cape Cod, you're always welcomed :)

Dave

Thanks. The instructions were seriously lacking from the manufacturer. I saw the rubber O ring and had no idea what it was for. It's obvious now that it's to keep the cup up. :)

To KAN, I went with something different that seems to be working so far. I kept reading about how some people love sumps/refugiums and some people say they are completely unnecessary. I figured the truth was somewhere closer to needing one cause why would people willingly spend hundreds of dollars to set something up that didn't do any good?

So what I did was I took a 55 gallon Power Filter by Aqueon and turned it into a mini refugium. The Aqueon drops the water in from the top pretty smoothly so I was able to put a 2" sand bed at the bottom of the "fuge" and then filled the rest with live rock rubble. It's like a little 1 gallon (maybe a bit more) HOT refugium. I plan on getting a small light to set up above it so I can throw some macro-algae in it. It only cost me 50 bucks. Because of the size of the filter and the size of the tank, it honestly works like a mini version of one of those Aquafuge HOT refugiums.

I was also reluctant to get one of those HOT refugiums by Aquafuge because that seems like A LOT of weght hanging off the back of my tank. With the medium size HOT fuge and a protein skimmer, I'd have over 40 pounds hanging off the back of a 29 gallon tank. Just made me nervous. I figure the mini refugium, the 40 + pounds of live sand, the 35 pounds of live rock and the protein skimmer are more than enough filtration for the tank.

I will post pictures later in the week probably. :)

An LFS will charge you for [Macro Algae].

I just noticed this post by Dave a few pages back. I recently bought a Maxijet from an LFS and asked if he had any Chaetomorpha. He just reached into his fuge and harvested a lump and bagged it for me, gratis. Never hurts to ask.

-Scott

Wow cool didn't think of that. IMO. But I would have drilled the tank, got 5g tank, pump, pluming, and rock. Four around say $60 at the most.
But at least If you do get a sump for your tank, you got something to run carbon in. :D

Nice to hear It's coming along good then.

I just noticed this post by Dave a few pages back. I recently bought a Maxijet from an LFS and asked if he had any Chaetomorpha. He just reached into his fuge and harvested a lump and bagged it for me, gratis. Never hurts to ask.

-Scott


I will ask. A new fish store opened up a few moths ago that I didn't know about right up the street from me. I'm looking forward to checking it out this afternoon. I'm thinking a new store may try to get a solid base by giving away some "samples" :dance: .

Wow cool didn't think of that. IMO. But I would have drilled the tank, got 5g tank, pump, pluming, and rock. Four around say $60 at the most.
But at least If you do get a sump for your tank, you got something to run carbon in. :D

Nice to hear It's coming along good then.


We REALLY thought about it, but we wanted to keep the chances of an overflow to a minimum. We're not planning on a huge bioload. I think it'll be a percula, bi-color pseudochromin, a small goby and maybe a flame hawk. That's pretty much it.

If we had more room in the apartment and could set up the tank further away from the $2000 Sony Bravia (:rotfl:), then we probably would have considered doing something with a 10-15 gallon sump. Of course, if we had more room, the tank would have been 55 gallons with a 29 gallon sump. :up: But in our current living situation, there is a lot to be said about simplicity.

I also see that it has one with a Protein skimmer built in? What do you think about that skimmer?

LOL. Good thing you didn't go with the Aquafuge PS! I just saw this product pic today, where it is really evident that the integrated skimmer and fuge design allows microbubbles to escape back to the display.

http://a1272.g.akamai.net/7/1272/1121/20071025161314/www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Categoryimages/normal/p-21300-42450-fish-filter.jpg

LOL. Good thing you didn't go with the Aquafuge PS! I just saw this product pic today, where it is really evident that the integrated skimmer and fuge design allows microbubbles to escape back to the display.

http://a1272.g.akamai.net/7/1272/1121/20071025161314/www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Categoryimages/normal/p-21300-42450-fish-filter.jpg


Yeah. Like I said in another post, I just got a little concerned with the amount of weight an Aquafuge would put on the back of my tank. At 29 gallons, it weighs about 300 pounds or so. Having 40 hanging off the back seems a tad scary in the event of a small earthquake (I live in Cal). There were units available that were factory seconds for around $105 after s&h. That's not much more than the $50 I spent on my "mini fuge" when you take into account the total cost of the tank. But with all the live rock and live sand along with a protein skimmer built for a tank twice the size of mine, I figured a small fuge would be sufficient. The only downside is there is a ton of crap hanging in my tank. lol.

This little guy is kinda interesting too. Linky (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3579+18372&pcatid=18372)

Would this (http://cgi.ebay.com/8-LED-White-Bar-floor-cabinet-Aquarium-Lighting-Power_W0QQitemZ300210043846QQihZ020QQcategoryZ4631 4QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l126 2) light be enough to take care of my little mini-fuge (55-60 gallon powerfilter emptied out with live sand and rock inside instead)? I want to be able to grow some macroalgae and was wondering if this little guy is enough light for it.

Yeah. Like I said in another post, I just got a little concerned with the amount of weight an Aquafuge would put on the back of my tank. At 29 gallons, it weighs about 300 pounds or so. Having 40 hanging off the back seems a tad scary in the event of a small earthquake (I live in Cal).

I'm in SoCal, so I definitely know what your concern. If I had an Aquafuge, I would probably support the bottom using a 4x4 (or stacked 2x2's) laying across the back of my stand, using a piece of 3/4" plywood under the tank to create a 4" ledge in back. Lifting the Aquafuge up just enough to take the weight off . This assumes that you have a 4" ledge on the back of your stand, which you probably don't, and I probably wouldn't either unless I was planned to have an HOB refugium.

The only downside is there is a ton of crap hanging in my tank. lol.

Ideally, you would have a false wall or surface skimming tower/box to conceal the pumps. For example, you could place your Bak Pak on the left end so the output is in the left corner, your power filter refugium to the far right end so the output is in the right corner. In the center, to conceal the intake of both the Bak Pak and Aqueon you could have a long overflow troth (with teeth) that would double as a surface skimmer. If it was long enough, your heater could also be concealed in this troth.

Alternatively (if you had gone with an Aquafuge or similar), it may be possible to plumb the Bak Pak output into the Aquafuge, thus removing one pump and one outlet from the display.

Can a heater be installed into the left chamber of the Bak Pak? It would reduce display clutter, and would keep the heater from harming the more delicate inverts.


This little guy is kinda interesting too. Linky (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3579+18372&pcatid=18372)

Yeah, but I just don't get the price of the EcoSystem. Same functionality as the Aquafuge, more wasted space (bio-balls?, and twice the price (albeit with fixture).

I really liked the Sapphire Aquatics fuge (even though it was small), complete with carbon chamber and light - but they went OOB. :cry: You could drop in their adorable skimmer (or not), or they even offered to custom build models without the skimmer compartment to enlarge the fuge. I was considering asking the owner to build me a custom fuge 50% larger.

http://homepage.mac.com/svanzo/.public/sap_hob18.jpg

I'm in SoCal, so I definitely know what your concern. If I had an Aquafuge, I would probably support the bottom using a 4x4 (or stacked 2x2's) laying across the back of my stand, using a piece of 3/4" plywood under the tank to create a 4" ledge in back. Lifting the Aquafuge up just enough to take the weight off . This assumes that you have a 4" ledge on the back of your stand, which you probably don't, and I probably wouldn't either unless I was planned to have an HOB refugium.



Ideally, you would have a false wall or surface skimming tower/box to conceal the pumps. For example, you could place your Bak Pak on the left end so the output is in the left corner, your power filter refugium to the far right end so the output is in the right corner. In the center, to conceal the intake of both the Bak Pak and Aqueon you could have a long overflow troth (with teeth) that would double as a surface skimmer. If it was long enough, your heater could also be concealed in this troth.

Alternatively (if you had gone with an Aquafuge or similar), it may be possible to plumb the Bak Pak output into the Aquafuge, thus removing one pump and one outlet from the display.

Can a heater be installed into the left chamber of the Bak Pak? It would reduce display clutter, and would keep the heater from harming the more delicate inverts.




Yeah, but I just don't get the price of the EcoSystem. Same functionality as the Aquafuge, more wasted space (bio-balls?, and twice the price (albeit with fixture).

I really liked the Sapphire Aquatics fuge (even though it was small), complete with carbon chamber and light - but they went OOB. :cry: You could drop in their adorable skimmer (or not), or they even offered to custom build models without the skimmer compartment to enlarge the fuge. I was considering asking the owner to build me a custom fuge 50% larger.

http://homepage.mac.com/svanzo/.public/sap_hob18.jpg


I went through all sorts of ideas in my head to reduce the clutter, but they all involved various tricks and gimmicks so to speak that would leave my tank in a position of vulnerability I wasn't comfortable with. I suppose I could put my heater in the left chamber of the Bak Pak. My only concern is if the bak pak goes out for some reason, the fish freeze. At least with the heater in the tank, it would HAVE to be the heater going out.

I also considered the Bak Pak output into a fuge. My idea was to hang it on the right side of the tank so it would flow right into the fuge. I worry about plumbing the Bak Pak into the fuge in a way where it requires an upswing in the pipe to get it to the fuge. Not sure the water would make it. If it was a simple hanging on the right side of the tank and right side of the fuge, it'd probably work well, except that I'd have to prop the skimmer up real high to get it to drop into the fuge seeing as it's already raised above tank level.

The ideal situation would be if I was handy with creating plexiglass boxes. I would create a box that was about 3 inches tal