I'm looking for a sixth fish to add to my stock list for my 65 gallon reef. So far I have a pair of percula clowns, a sixline wrasse, and a royal gramma in quarantine. I also have a flame angel on hold at a LFS. I'm researching a copperband or big long nosed as my final fish for this tank. I've read the copperbands are difficult to get eat, but once eating are hardy fish. I would only consider a specimen that is eating well at a LFS for this reason. They are also generally regarded as reef safe, except for eating small feather dusters. My other fish in consideration is the big long-nosed butterfly (Forcipiger longirostris). Robert Fenner describes this fish as very hardy and easy to acclimate and start feeding as opposed to the copperband. Every reference I have seen says the BIG long nosed (Forcipiger longirostris not Forcipiger flavissimus) is completely reef safe. Does this seem like a sensible stocking list for my 65? Anyone with any experience with these two fish? I try to verify every (or at least most) decision I make with my friends here on TR.

Hey Ricky,

Sorry we missed you at the frag show. Both the Copperband and the Long Nose Butterfly fish can be tricky to acclimate to captive foods. There's a whole new crop of foods on the market that should make it easier for you to accomplish your goal. Some of the best are from Reef Nutrition.

Check them out.

Dick

also, IMHO, NO butterfly is COMPLETELY reef safe. i have had both fish, and i have to say that in my experience ... the copperband was the best fish i ever bought. i would still have him today if i did not have a pistol shrimp that dug up under the rock work and caused a rock slide in the tank, that pinned the copperband under some rocks and he died. this is what i looked like when i saw him ... :o

the long nose only lasted about a week for me, even with my insanely exceptional water quality and completely nuts acclimation process.

Thanks for the responses. So does this seem like a sensible stocking list? How "stocked" would you consider my 65 with this list? I'm just making sure I'm not sticking a tang in a 10 gallon so to speak. Should I worry about the flame angel harrasing the butterfly? I think ill add the flame last regardless.

Dick it is a real shame we couldn't meet up at the swap, albeit my own fault. How is the aquaculture buildling coming along? I'd love to make the drive up when your done and support a forum member.

The building has turned out to be quite a challenge for Sue and I to get together square and true to the world. It wants to take on a shape of it's own. I talked to the factory engineer last week and he made some suggestions which seems like they will work. I have to wait till my wife has some time off to work on it. That's the major problem to getting it done. One person cannot do it alone.

Dick

i am trying to get the wife to move to florida !! i will be glad to help if i even get her to go for it !!

I wanted to bring this post back before making a decision. A LFS owner claims that most of the copperbands he has seen nip at zoanthids. Anyone have any experience? Also how does my stock list look? To make it easier ill repost it here.
pair of percula clowns
royal gramma
sixline wrasse
flame angel
I appreciate any insight or personal experiences you guys can offer.

I'm on my 2nd copperband currently. The first one I really should have known better than to get. It was thin, and as soon as it was placed in the tank, it just hung out in the corner until it died about 36 hours later. The 2nd one was fat and happy looking at the LFS and I made sure he ate before he came home. He'sbeen in the tank since Wednesday, eats mysis and spirulina enriched brine, picks at the rocks and swims about the tank. He has not nipped at any corals or clams yet, but I guess we'll see. It realy is a gorgeous fish, and I'm thrilled he seems to be doing OK.

I have no personal experience with the longnose.

The Copperband Butterfly is such a dramatic fish. Another one of my favorites but, CAUTION must be the word on these. Most come from the Philippines and many are still being caught with cyanide. Cyanide caught fish are doomed. That is why it is against the law but alas, that law is seldom enforced because of the lack of funds, personnel and the size of the range.

This is not a fish for the newbie or a new tank plus, they should be housed in nothing smaller than a 100 gal, in my humble opinion!!! I got bit by one about a year ago...

http://www.theculturedreef.com/CopperBand-1.jpg

Beautiful, isn't it? By all accounts this is a healthy CB. It is large, fat, alert, swimming normal, breathing normal, it nibbled at live brine at the store and didn't look stressed. I bit, $75 worth, and within two weeks it developed a patch of raised scales on it's right shoulder area. Within 2 or 3 days from that showing up, it died. Buyer be aware on CBs.

Dick

I'm 0/3 on CBBs with one living 4 months, the other two only lasting a couple days. Even with a huge aiptasia population (not by choice), I couldn't keep them very long. I think most of them are too starved to survive by the time we get 'em.

Update:
My LFS got a copperband in that was too hard for me to resist. First day I saw him he was eating live brine. I went back this past friday (4-5 days later) and he was eating frozen foods so I took a chance and brought him home.
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h158/pf1130/65%20Gallon/copperband.jpg
I'm glad to say he has been eating frozen mysid and brine immediately since being put in the QT. Wish me luck, I hope this little guy does not have a taste for corals.

Really sad news, I found my copperband dead this morning. This fish was eating vigorously and swimming out in the open, he would even come up to the glass to take a look at me whenever I was around. By all I could tell this was a perfectly healthy fish. Yesterday afternoon he was not looking great though. When I got home from work he was breathing fast hanging around the bottom (he was also twitched a fin once or twice) and I could not get him to eat brine or mysid (which he was chowing down until then). I quickly tested the water and found nothing out of the normal.
PH: a lil low around 7.9-8.0
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite:0ppm
Nitrate: about 10-15ppm
Temp:81 deg F (never really deviates from this)
Salinity: 1.025

There was a good amount of detritus collecting at the bottom of the quarantine tank, so even though the parameters looked ok I decided to do a water change in case something got into the tank that I wasnt measuring. I did a fairly large water change (about 50%). I used water from my DT for the water change. I went to the local Petco to get some bloodworms which I had seen him eating at the LFS. I couldnt get him to even look at those either. My royal gramma acted exactly like this the day before he came down with ich, so I decided to dose the QT with copper as I had done for the gramma. I dosed the copper and tested the level to be sure I was around 2ppm. I woke up today to find him dead. No spots, fungus, raised scales or anything like that. He did look thin though, but this fish had been eating well. I'm REALLY down about this and hope to at least learn something. What could I have done differently? Can anyone give possibilities to what might have caused his death given the symptoms I observed. What really surprised me is how quickly he went from looking great to dead. I try to care for my fish to the best of my abilities and something like this really bums me out.

you say he was fat when you bought him, and thin when he died ?? sounds like some type of internal parasite (maybe worms) problem to me. looks like he was there for about 9-10 days ... could also be a cyanide issue, the time line sounds about right. if you try another one ... TRY AUSTRAILIAN !! (wait until V sees that !!)

dont let it get you down, it happens to everyone.

you say he was fat when you bought him, and thin when he died ?? sounds like some type of internal parasite (maybe worms) problem to me. looks like he was there for about 9-10 days ... could also be a cyanide issue, the time line sounds about right. if you try another one ... TRY AUSTRAILIAN !! (wait until V sees that !!)

dont let it get you down, it happens to everyone.

He died on the 13th day of being in QT. I wouldn't call him fat when I got him, but he definetly looked thin the day before he died. I was feeding him mysid and sometimes brine twice a day. I thought internal parasite as well, but would that cause him to breath heavily? On that train of thought, I've heard of people "de-worming" fish, but how is that done? Is that a medication their food is soaked in? added to the water? Also can a fish that is cyanide caught be alert? I thought cyanide caught fish didnt eat and usually weren't very aware of surroundings? What are signs of a cyanide caught fish? Or is there really not a good way of telling? Is it possible he had a bad reaction to the copper or large water change? Is there something I did wrong or could have done better? I'm sorry for all the questions but all of these things are running through my mind. My QT is a 10G starter kit from petco, I noticed yest 3 of the bolts on the light fixture are rusty. These bolts are above and over the water, is it possible these could leach enough harmful metals even if they are not IN the water? I guess this is all part of the learning process and hopefully I will at least learn something from the experience. Even if that lesson may be on how sensitive copperbands can be. As always I really appreciate all the responses I get on this forum.

really, it could have been a wide variety of things that caused him to die. it is really hard to tell cyanide caught fish from others. IME, with what i thought were cyanide fish, they were both in excellent condition, alert, and aware.

worms are killed with a medication, but i cant remember the name of it off hand. i will try to get back to you on that.

i highly doubt that the screws did anything to the water.

it IS possible that the copper had an ill effect on him.

i think you are doing everything right, what are you using to cycle the QT tank ??

Thanks for the responses Bobby. For my own future reference do you believe treating with copper was a mistake? I used copper because I suspected a chance that his heavy breathing might be due to ich or another parasite affecting the gills.

As far as cycling the QT, the quarantine cycled months ago before I added the first fish that are now in my DT. The QT is bare bottom with only a flowerpot on its side and some pvc fittings. It has a HOB filter and a corner sponge filter. Since im not sure what killed the copperband I am going to tear it down. Drain all the water, throw away all filter media, and scrub everything with vinegar and water, and then cycle it with new filter media. Im also considering letting it run for a week or so before tearing it down. The reason for this is that I figure the copper might kill off ich or other parasites if present now. I will probably just add some fish food a couple times to start the cycle this time around.

i would not treat for anything until something shows up while in the QT tank. QT is more for observation than treating ... unless something happens.

RIcky,
I agree with Bobby, dont treat fish in QT unless they need it. QT is primarily for observation and then treatment if necessary. You wouldn't take an antibiotic if you didn't have an infection would you?

As far as the CBB dying is anyones guess. These fish are very sensitive and some do well, but a majority of them perish. I speak from experience, I have killed a couple, which is a bummer because they are one of my favorites.

Cyanide caught fish usually look GREAT one day and dead the next.

If is was an internal parasite it could have caused the fast breathing. As the fish's body fights to regain balance it could breath faster in an attempt to get more O2 into its system.

Thanks for the responses. I only treated with copper when I saw him breathing heavily and refusing food, now im begining to worry this may have been a mistake. As for an internal parasite what are the symptoms and does anyone know what the de-worming medication is named?

do a google search on Praziquantel and see what you get. i think that is it.

FishDoc.net - Using Praziquantel for Fluke infestations (http://www.fishdoc.net/articles/details.php?articleId=25)

Internal Parasite Medications for Aquarium Fish: Fish Tapes Praziquantel Tapeworm Medication (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=15555)

Many people believe that garlic is effective against internal parasites. I can't say if this is so but I believer that garlic boosts the immune system and is a good appetite stimulant. I feed it all the time.