I have a brownish purple 'skin' that grows on my live rock and sand (mostly rock). Can anyone tell me what (or how to find out) it is??

My tanks were started about 8 weeks ago with cured live rock and sand. About 3 weeks ago I got a large copper colored growth that formed over a lot of my rock. It was on the upper surfaces of the rock that received the most lighting. :eek: After a few days the color changed to very dark 'plum' color - that I now would consider a brownish plum/purple color.

I do not know what it is but could not find any 'good' information and started to remove it after the first color change, using tweezers and a turkey baster. It peels back like a very thin skin. :sick: The turkey baster will blow the 'skin' off or make a flap that can be easily pealed/lifted with the tweezers.

The water is very clear and all tests are within normal (suggested) perimeters. :huh: This never created any 'spike' or change of any kind.

If anyone can offer any info and/or advice to its identity, cause, purpose and control; I would be very grateful! :blush: Thanks, ahead of time, for your time and advice.

I am obviously new to the hobby and am doing my best to learn. I am having a very frustrating time trying to determine 'good', 'normal' growth.

:fish: Thanks, again!

In such a new tank I would say some form of cyano bacteria, this is normal. It's feeding off the excess nutrients (which is most likely why your tests show low). If you can, siphon it out during your next water change or with a turkey baster and you'll be alright!

It is a bacteria. cyano possibly. I have had it several times. I usually just suck it off the rocks with a water change. It will cover over corals and kill them. You can also buy a product called red slime remover, I have used it, it works. It will kill all the "red slime" however it can also kill good bacteria. I would just suck it off the rock and keep up with regular water changes. It usually appear in tanks that are new or have bad water. Its not a big deal, just a bit odd looking

your tank is going through a cycling phase. Cyano can often trap nitrates and phosphates, so sometimes the readings can be off.

Have you done your first water change yet? How's your flow? Maybe you need to increase the total turnover in your tank...this can often help with cyano.

by the way...are you using a skimmer?

Thanks for all the replies and info. I will keep doing as I am and as you have suggested. I will stay more conservative without chemical additives... I am way to new to play with big toys!:fish:

How long can I expect this 'cycling' to continue? I have heard, read, been told so many things I am confused.:wall:

About a skimmer: no... the tanks are very small (5G,5G,12G), I was told it was not necessary with frequent water changes. I just did one 3 days ago (is once a week/20% OK) They do have in-tank sumps and good circulation (I will check again). Should I look at protein skimmer's, what is recommended for small tanks?

I have all these tanks located together right now for convenience and observations. Should I look at setting up a larger tank (connecting them all to it) below as a external sump to add a skimmer to it?? Maybe a refugium? is this overkill?

"Cyano can often trap nitrates and phosphates, so sometimes the readings can be off."..... I have noticed that bubbles will sometimes be around or under the 'skin'; Is that what that is? If I am sure to test the water after cleaning it away, will I get accurate readings?

Another question about water changes and siphoning: what is a good tool/kit to use....how do you siphon off the sand (the cyano is there as well) without taking up sand as well??:stupid:

Again, thank you sooo much for the info and support!

Let me add KUDOS! to this site!! I have listened to a couple of podcasts and have really enjoyed and gotten a lot from them. I am looking to dedicate a lot time (time permitting) here, I haven't even gotten into your 'library' or 'links' .... you seem to have it ALL! :showoff:Glad I found you:agree: It's with help like this that I will continue with this great new hobby!!

Cyano bacteria is not necessarily an indicator of cycling, even a three year old tank can experience Cyano from time to time. It is often a sign that there are excess nutrients in the tank that they can feed off of. Reducing their food source is the best way to control them. What are you feeding your tanks?

As far as a skimmer, you are going to have a hard time finding a skimmer that will work on such small tanks. Regular water changes with good salt and RO/DI water will work just as well, maybe even better.

Siphoning can be done with either a commercially available kit, or by simply buying some small vinyl tubing. Larger tubing will drain water faster and in tanks your size that may create a problem, so keep it on small size. I would try something slightly larger than airline tubing to start with.

Thank you poppin-fresh!

That was the info that I was given in reference to a skimmer and small tanks. I started my tanks with LR and sand and the only additive I use is PurpleUp every other day or two in the sumps. I don't do every day because it is so hard to measure for such small tanks and I didn't want to overdo... maybe I still am?? On the 12G when looking from in up to the surface there is a slight film (clear not cyano). Although it started with the biggest 'bloom' it now has the smallest problem. The two 5G tanks I am constantly removing growth from the rock and sand.

I have a just started a 39G that I have just added LR to - it is the same LR as used for the other 3 that has been maintained in a large Tupperware container with 2 powerheads and a heater (76-76 degrees, same as others). I was (am) adding the PurpleUp to it as well. I still have the container going because there is still some LR/LS remaining. I have no cyano, that I can see, in either! I also do not have lighting (other then regular house/room lighting) on the container.

Another note: my 12G and 39G both have refugiums in the back tank sumps. In the 12G I did add some macro algae, nothing else...no sand or rock. Could this be helping control the nutrients in it?

The sumps in the of the 5Gs only have the filter area with the filter balls and pad and then the section for the pump. Could/should I add some macro algae (or some other source??) in either of those compartments without clogging the pump?

I understand that the smaller the tank the more difficult to maintain but they are hard to resist for a beginner :roll: I wanted to have one to keep as my quarantine tank, that I am determined to do even though many people don't and say it is not necessary.

As to the sand and siphoning: I only have 1" - 1 1/2'' beds. If I do siphon off too much, I can add to it with sand from my 'container' without spiking changes since it has cycled as the rest??:huh:

I have read (and listened to from podcasts) on this site about attaching a brush to the siphon tube to help with the cleaning. I am going to try it.

Last (I promise...I am sorry:blush:... I'm new to this hobby & forums, I am sure I am breaking some 'forum etiquette"); with my 5Gs (with the most cyano), would it be too much if I siphoned and did maybe a 10% water change every 3-5 days instead of 20% every week?

Again, thank you so much for your time... it is such a help!! Most of my lfs ignore a lot of my questions. :( They want to tell me what to do and not why. How can you enjoy a hobby, maintain a healthy tank environment without understanding??:wall:

You all are great!:hat:

Oh, I do us RO water to mix my saltwater and top-off my tanks!

Your idea of setting up a larger tank as a sump and hooking them all together is a fantastic idea. You will be able to get much more stable conditions in the smaller tanks. The larger the water volume, the more room for fluctuations.

I didn't mean to suggest that cyano is only a cycling stage...it often comes with the cycling phase, but is always an indication of too much nutrients - regardless of whether this is during the cycling phase or in a very mature, old tank.

I don't have any experience with skimmerless tanks, so I'm not sure if 10% water changes every 3-5 days is overkill or not. Keep in mind there's a lot of good "things" in the water as well...so you don't want to be removing the majority of your good bacteria to often. But, again...I'm not sure if in a skimmerless situation this is good. Hopefully someone else will chime in.

Filter balls/bioballs - these can often be nitrate traps and can reak havoc in reef tanks. I would recommend rather relying on live rock to add us a bacterial filtration.

Again....if you could somehow plumb the smaller tanks together and have a larger sump with a skimmer that's filtering ALL the tanks, this would certainly be the ideal situation!

Glad you've joined in and are asking away. Welcome to the community!

Thanks reefbaby, I appreciate the support!

I did understand your comment to cyano as you intended. My response to 'cycling' is just that I have been given so many varying comments to the process that I have no idea when it is complete and/or when to add livestock. I have been told as little as a week from the cured LR to 3 weeks, 6 weeks, 8 weeks............

I am looking into connecting my two smallest to the tupperware container (this is secret that I am trying to slip in behind my DPH's back :p he thinks I'm getting a little obsessed with these tanks!) with the extra LR & sand. I just need to figure out how :huh:... pipes, connector, pump and all. Any diy plans with specifics would be great...

When I did the R/O system I was making so many runs for some little piece I was missing. I hope I find a plan and am more organized before I start with this project.

I am in great need of skimmer recommendations! There are soo many and I have spent some trying to wade my through several sites. I have no clue how to pick one.

I already have 2 powerheads and a heater... would I just then get a submersible pump (like in the sumps now) to add in the container for the return? Any pump recommendations??

I will keep my siphoning/water changes to 4-7 days and 10-15%. As you said I don't want to remove all the good stuff. If anyone can comment on this, please do! I don't plan to make a habit of less than 7 days, I only want to when the growth is more than I can stand. :sick:

"Filter balls/bioballs - these can often be nitrate traps and can reak havoc in reef tanks."
so bioballs are not recommended?? Why are so many system using them now? If I remove them could I add maco algae?

Again, I can't thank you all for the support! You're keeping me afloat! :sailing:

fyi: DPH is dear patient husband ;)

As far as which is W/C routine is better, no one can say for sure. Some people, such as Randy Holmes-Farley, are proponents of 1% every day. Others believe in other methods, but most people agree that smaller is better. A 75% change can be a huge shock to the system. Either of your plans should be fine.

Do those smaller tanks you want to connect have overflows to allow them to drain down to the sump?

Yes, bioballs are considered a no, no in modern reef tanks. I'm not really sure why they still sumps with them, most people ditch them.

Yes, both (all) my tanks have overflows that drain to in-tank sumps. The two smaller have just 2 compartments; the first with the filter and bioballs (I will get rid of) and the second for the return pump.

So what should I add in place of the bioballs?

I think that most every tank I have seen, both online and in lfs, have either black or blue bioballs!!

Thanks!

If you have live rock, that should be all the natural biological filtration that you need. You'll have tons of beneficial bacteria inhabiting the rocks which takes the place of the bioballs and is much better for the system. You don't have to have anything in the compartments. But, some people like to put in live rock rubble in places like that...it's a great place for copepods/amphipods to have a safe place to propagate and provide food for the tank.

my god I'm loving this thread.... so many different styles all posting along the same lines...

more water in system = good

bio balls = possible nitrate trap if not maintained (like a canister filter which a lot of people will tell you is bad... I run one happily but I maintain it so it works! Clean the bio balls, clean the canister... good... no clean... bad)

refugium = shameless plug.....
yeah I'm the copepodgeek..... (http://www.copepodgeek.com)

Poppin is very correct in the cyano is not necessarily a sign of cycling... in reality the bacteria always exists, it just needs a catalyst to take hold... Watch your stats and find a balance, if it works do it! if you change expect the tank to change and try to re-find balance with the new method... just because the general concensus is that something is good or bad doesnt mean it's law in this hobby, we're still delving into an area that is so unknown even a moron like me with a microscope can find new stuff out..... realize that and expect a little bit of work at first to find your niche and you'll be fine!

on the skimmer... I run my display with a skimmer running all the time... I have several breeding and experimentation systems that are run skimmerless... it depends on water quality, they're handy tools but realize they pull one thing out... dissolved organics. My skimmer pulls very little, not because it's broken but because I feed live phytoplankton and mostly live foods, what doesnt get eaten lives until it does. The live phytoplankton actually feeds on excess nutrients during it's time in the tank too... there really isnt anything to skim out! (I see the whole, my skimmer isnt pulling so it's broken thing a lot, and sometimes its true but really think about it... what if its working fine but theres nothing to skim... is it still broken?)

I'm a heavy heavy... well okay HEAVY feeder and a massive proponent of bio diversity and refugiums... I also run a canister filter (more for physical filtration and flow than anything) which is supposedly a no no... but I maintain it and have luck, I monitor my tank and know when I need to do something, it's called the swing of things! I would generally agree that bio balls are bad but I use them in my cultures to provide surfaces for my zooplankton to rest.. (so really they're very good!!!!) If I were to run them in my sump (which I dont) I would make sure and clean them on a schedule and I'd be doin good. But in the end I'm just another guy with another method that just happens to work for me!

Your on a schedule for most of your stuff based on your posts so I'd say your pretty much there!! Just whittle on the sharp edges till it rolls!

Oh and Reefbaby, Dkone tole me you were supposed to make it out to reefstock... gah how come you didnt wander by and say helllooooo to us morons out here!?

I WAS there!! I was the one that won the coral of my choice, but couldn't take it with me! :D

I met several of the people (Jake, Astrivian, and one of Astrivian's buddies, Adam). Where were you? What stand were you at?

hah I was all over the place, the larger tank (if you could call it larger I suppose) next to DKones was my little peice of refugium to show off the plankton. I spent the majority of time running around dealing with setup and such but I was on the other side of the table from John for a short time here and there (nah I wasnt the guy in the glasses).

Hi Loraine and :welcome: to TR!

This hobby is confusing in part because there are so many right ways to do things. :) I run my nano with no skimmer but I use one on my 54. As far as the nano goes I have some LR chunks and a small bag of carbon in the first chamber in the sump area, my heater in the second and the return pump in the last chamber. The return is pointed so that it ruffles the surface of the water. I have a 250 gph powerhead on the side opposite the return that is lower and pointed at a slight downward angle.

I found it helpful to siphon cyano as soon as it came back, even if this means changing a liter of water each day. You can buy the small diameter vinyl tubing at the hardware store. Make sure that you get enough to go from the bottom back corner of the tank to a bucket on the floor! More flow is helpful in keeping cyano from coming back once you have siphoned it out, it likes still water. If you can add macro it will help with nutrient export. Fuges are a reef keepers best friend!

Wow! This thread has offered a lot.

I'm new to both the hobby and forums. I thought when my questions started to twist and turn that I probably should have started a new thread.... that my new/additional inquiries would be lost in the post.

Thank you all for sticking with me. I love this site!
THEJRC, may I say "Wow!" again - I love your attitude (??) I'm jumping right over to copepodgeek

CarmieJo: thanks for the welcome along the info - you addressed a 'specific' that I needed; as did each reply post!!

I am really getting to see that there really are a lot of right ways to do things; what might not work for one does for another. But I also feel that I can't get too much information, it just might need a little customizing.

so I'm off to whittle on the sharp edges till it rolls!
:thumbs: