After one year or poor manning :huh: my 46g bow front I think I am going to finally bite the bullet and set it up right. Currently I am running the tank with two large biowheel filter/pumps and it just isnt going to work for the sps corals I would love. The tank currently has a claric(sp?) clown, a pepermint shrimp, 1 or 2 serpent stars, a green carpet anemone, 3 different zoo colonies, a finger leather, a few small mushrooms, tons of bristle worms and other small hitchers.

I have been running my display as a refugium/display. I got a small cheto ball and a few bits of grape calerpa (sp?) almost a year ago, it has taken over! I didnt spend the time to keep everything trimmed and now it is literally everywhere! I took half of it out and gave it to a LFS about 3 months ago but its back with a vengence.

I am planning to use the 46g bow front as the DT and use my empty 75g as a refugium. I want to build a custom stand. Currently the tank is about 2 1/2 to 3 feet off the ground and I would love to bring the tank to 4 foot or more off the floor.

Questions:
1. Is there a way to get grape chalerpa (sp?) off of live rock other than picking it off root by root?
2. There are bristle worms everywhere! I heard they have a nasty sting. Is there a way to keep from being stung wile handling rock and sand with them in it? Latex gloves? rubber dish washing/cleaning gloves? If people want some they make a great clean up crew...
3. will a 4' 6500k florescent 2 light fixture be sufficent to light the macro algae in the 75g refugium? The clown and the anemone love one another, could I move them both to the refugium if I put in a 300w flood light over the refugium? The clown really dislikes any other fishes and I dont want just him in the DT. I also have a pistol shrimp/yellow watchman goby and I was told gobys and anemones dont play well together. I would hate to lose my yellow watchman or pistol shrimp thus the idea to move the carpet. If the flood light wouldnt work could i run a small 150w MH on one side of the fuge tank for the carpet?
4. My tank is not drilled...I hate that it isnt. Is a suction overflow the best way to drain water to the fuge (i read it can be a real pain)? Could one use a pump to pull water from the DT to the fuge? I was thinking I could use my little giant pump to pull water from the DT and split the flow between the fuge and a closed loop. Then use another pump to run water back to the DT from the fuge.
5. I heard that cheto and calerpa(sp?) shouldnt be put together...mine is growing together but when I move it to my fuge should I bother to seperate it? If so how should I keep it seperated? Should I put in acryllic/glass dividers between the macros?
6. I was thinking of putting in a bucket/column of sand with a small pump...how slow should the flow through the sand be?

thanks guys...

I'll post some pics of the poor man system soon

I am going to make the hood out of wood. My wife brought up the question, "wont that catch fire"? I was planning on putting a decent sided fan, aka the largest that will fit inside, inside the hood to blow the heat out the vents in the other side. It is a 400w MH. I may also put in some florscents... Do I need to shield the wood? What about just coating the inside with mylar? fire?

currently my 400w MH is 15" off the top of the tank and and 16-17" off the top of the water. I think it is a bit high but I had problems with sps corals bleaching anywhere above the bottom 3rd of my tank...is this beacause of the massive amounts of light or something else? The 400w fixture was origionally made for hydroponics so it has no glass shield, could that or is that a problem? I have a glass top for the tank but I have not used it since turning it into a salt water tank...lost an oscar long ago and had to buy a top.

46g bowfronts also have that darn plastic center strip. I dont like it there but I dont want a cracked tank so it has stayed. when my light was lower I ran water from a small pump over the strip keeping it cool.

Well I have had a slight change in plans. I was talking to my wife about the pains of suction overflows and the benefits of drilled tanks and she suggested drilling my 46g bow front. Well that wouldnt work I would have to drain the tank, putting everything into my 75g...re-cycle it sort of, drill the tank and not crack it then restock the 46Dt. Then I thought why not just drill the 75 and make it my display and use the 46g for my refugium. If the 75g cracks I am out $100 but I didnt destroy the habitat in the 46g.

I have read several posts about drilling tanks and I am scared but kinda excited to try. I will get some bits off e-bay and give it a shot with lots of water and eye/lung protection.

question:

what size bulkheads should I get? I suppose since the drain pipe will be ballvalved I cant really do to big? any advice?

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/Photo_John/plumb.jpg
I just thought this up let me know what you all think. The 75g might have a tempered bottom so the bulkheads may need to be in the side of the tank.

In my design idea for a return system I have 2 verticle return pipes, does this double the headloss because it is doubling the total verticle water travel?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3114/2315965012_4f61bea407.jpg?v=0
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2154/2315156505_cc78090ea2.jpg?v=0
how my 46g currently looks

PJ... let me give you my .02

If its from a major manufacturer, chances are your 75 does have a tempered bottom so drilling is not an option. You can however, possibly drill the sides, but it depends on the tank... who made yours?

You probably dont need to drill the tank for the returns if you dont want too. A simpler approach would be to go up and over the top.

Yes, doubling the return piping will cause more headloss. Depending on the pump you may still have plenty of turnover to the sump anyway.

If it were me, I would sell/trade that 400w halide. It is way overkill for even a 75 and IMO you are throwing $$ away to run it every day for no benefit. A good T5 setup or two 150w MHs would do the job for less wattage and less heat.

A new design I did today...still working it out!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3156/2315964968_8661fa7a36.jpg?v=0

thanks poppin fresh.

my tank was made by "all glass aquariums" I am going to have to find out if it is tempered. I thought drilling the sides would probably be best at this point.

My LFS coral guy told me I need 5watts per gallon roughtly to happily grow sps corals. I know that is not a hard and fast rule and he probably just wanted to sell me a light (not that I bought it from him). He said more light=better growth. I have had problems bleaching or burning sps corals in my current 46g. I was hoping with a 75g the 400w would still be okay. I was planning on putting in 2-4 t5 actinics along with the 400w MH. If I could trade my light for 2 150w MH's I would but I dont know how much free money I have for more lights. I currently have 2 400watt MH lights but I only run one. Running both on the 75g crossed my mind but I figured it would be crazy overkill...Why is running a 400w just throwing $$$ away? will it not help corals grow better?

As for pumps I am still searching, I was thinking about a 1200ghp return. from the podcasts and tank threads I have gathered that the more flow the better. I know that you dont want crazy flow through the fuge, 1200ghp may be overkill? In my latest sketch idea I added a closed loop (the green). I would like 15 to 20 total turn over per hour. at about 121 total gallons (75+46) 15x requires 1815gph and 20x requires 2420gph. With a 1200gph return I still need 615 to 1200gph closed loop to hit the turn over goal.

I am looking at a downdraft skimmer, it is a bit large for my system but I am planning on a larger tank eventually and would just assume buy for that tank instead of buying 2 skimmers. It requires a 600-900gph pump, it is rated for a 400g tank. I thought I could just run it for 2-3 hours a day.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2325/2315156453_548fe3cdde.jpg?v=0
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3022/2315964858_11a25b50b2.jpg?v=0
This brown ?bacteria? is new to me. Any ideas what to do about it? I am doing water changes and attempting to suck the brown gunk out by hand. I dont think it is cyano, i have had that before. This looks very whispy. It keeps floating my algae to the surface and drying it out.

thanks for any help

I checked my 75g (required climbing inside my stand for my empty 190g) it says "do not drill tempered glass bottom" I guess that means the sides are not?

I know for the bow front tanks the plastic center strip is important, what about normal square tanks? Can they be removed or replaced with something that will allow light to pass?

is there a way to move this thread to the member tank project forum?

Hey PhotoJohn,

You've got quite a long series of posts dealing with various subjects. I'm going to attempt to answer as many of your questions as possible. I'll quote you and then answer each in turn. This is going to be a long post. I hope it makes sense. It may also bring up more questions for everyone. Ask away.

I am planning to use the 46g bow front as the DT and use my empty 75g as a refugium.This is a bit unusual in that most hobbyists would opt for the opposite. Any particular reason not evident to me why you would choose this option? Just curious.

1. Is there a way to get grape chalerpa (sp?) off of live rock other than picking it off root by root?Not without killing the bacteria in the LR. You can pick it off but, the tiniest piece left behind will grow again. You could try blasting it with a high pressure hose. That may set the bacteria back a bit but, it would bounce back. A desperate attempt, I admit. It might be best to just get new LR.

2. There are bristle worms everywhere! I heard they have a nasty sting. Is there a way to keep from being stung wile handling rock and sand with them in it? Latex gloves? rubber dish washing/cleaning gloves? If people want some they make a great clean up crew...Bristle worms (BW) are good, an overpopulation may not be good. If handled with care you won't be stung. It isn't like a bee stinging you, where the bee forces the stinger into you. People who experience the sting of bristle worms have handled them with too much finger pressure. I've handled thousands of pounds of LR over the years and have been "stung" only a couple of times from grabbing the rock and inadvertently having a BW under a finger. The sting is not at all bad and goes away shortly. If you are bothered by the sting Melaleuca oil neutralizes it instantly. You can wear gloves if you want but the LR is sharp and will shred them in no time.

3. will a 4' 6500k florescent 2 light fixture be sufficent to light the macro algae in the 75g refugium?Probably yes. Refugiums don't require the intensity of DTs housing various corals and anemones.

The clown and the anemone love one another, could I move them both to the refugium if I put in a 300w flood light over the refugium?Maybe. One of the most awe inspiring inhabitants of a DT is the clown and anemone combination. I would display them in the DT.

The clown really dislikes any other fishes and I dont want just him in the DT.Why would you not put the anemone in the DT???

I also have a pistol shrimp/yellow watchman goby and I was told gobys and anemones dont play well together. I would hate to lose my yellow watchman or pistol shrimp thus the idea to move the carpet. If the flood light wouldnt work could i run a small 150w MH on one side of the fuge tank for the carpet?Most fish are susceptible to the sting of the anemone and are programmed to avoid them. Occasionally a fish will be stung and killed. That is part of life in the ocean and since we are keeping a part of the ocean in our DTs it is part of life here, too. The anemone does not seek out and prey upon gobies or any other fish. It's the fish that stumble into the anemones tentacles that get caught. While we may not like it, life and death are part and parcel of being here on earth. It's a good thing to do our best to avoid deliberately putting our critters in harms way but, our duty as master of our reef is better spent providing optimum conditions in our systems, not avoiding natural settings.

4. My tank is not drilled...I hate that it isnt. Is a suction overflow the best way to drain water to the fuge (i read it can be a real pain)?Suction or siphon overflows are problematic in that they can lose flow and cause flooding. There are things you can do to help prevent this from occurring. One of the best is to glue in a small fitting into the top of the siphon tub and run an 1/8" airline tubing down into the sump using the power of siphon action to eliminate trapped air at the top of the siphon tube. It is not fool proof. If you lose power for some time, it will continue to siphon and could possibly drain enough water to break the siphon. When power returns, you could be facing a flooding problem.

Could one use a pump to pull water from the DT to the fuge? I was thinking I could use my little giant pump to pull water from the DT and split the flow between the fuge and a closed loop. Then use another pump to run water back to the DT from the fuge.In my humble opinion, this is a flooding situation bound to happen. One must pump water from the sump/refugium to the DT and only the amount of water pumped up must find it's way back to the sump/refugium via an overflow. Even if your pumps were matched perfectly, any difference in piping between the two would create different flow amounts and eventually a flooding event would happen.

5. I heard that cheto and calerpa(sp?) shouldnt be put together...mine is growing together but when I move it to my fuge should I bother to seperate it? If so how should I keep it seperated? Should I put in acryllic/glass dividers between the macros?I would not go to the bother of separating it.

6. I was thinking of putting in a bucket/column of sand with a small pump...how slow should the flow through the sand be?This is a remote DSB or RDSB and works fine if inoculated properly with LS and burrowing worms. The flow can be any amount that doesn't kick up sand and distribute it elsewhere in the system. If you used a five gallon bucket half filled with Aragonite sand, put water flowing in a few inches above the sand and an out flow a couple of inches below the top of the bucket, you would have a great RDSB. The important thing to remember with a DSB or RDSB is, it must have burrowing worms. It's the tunneling of the worms that draws the Nitrate laden water to the lower anaerobic sections of the DSB for conversion to Nitrogen gas, the final step in the nitrification cycle.

Ok, this is enough for one sitting and I've only covered your first post. I hope this helps with your questions. I'll continue with more later.

Dick

Hi John,

Wow! I am out of town and have been mostly off the forum for a few days and have missed this altogether! I am not good with the plumbing questions so I won't even attempt to give you advice about that.

I think that your bleaching is probably due to too much light and burning by UV. Watts per gallon is a very unreliable measurement, the height of the tank is what is important and you can DEFINITELY have too much light. I heard a talk by Dana Riddle at MACNA and he said that people are much more likely to over light then under light their tanks. This causes the coral pigments to green shift as they attempt to protect themselves.

You could "cook" your LR to get rid of the caluerpa but this mean that you have to remove the rock from your tank for months. I would suggest that you develop a program of regularly pruning the caulerpa. If a tank does not have sufficient nutrients caulerpa, in a last ditch effort to sustain itself, will sporulate or "go sexual". Pruning decreases the amount of macro, makes more nutrients available for it and prevents this from happening.

Thank you for your help.

I believe I am going to display the 75g and try to drill it myself with a diamond hole saw. I was thinking 2 3"holes to fit a 2" bulkhead. I have a spare 10g and 20g I think I will practice on. The 75g has a tempered bottom but I am going to drill the sides. Pumping the water out and back in was novel but troubled.

I love the clown and anemone but the clown is a cleric(sp?) and hyper agressive, or seems to be.
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/Photo_John/clown2.jpg
I was going to move them to the fuge so I could put other creatures in my display without them getting destroyed by the clown. I may try other fish in the display with the clown and anemone and watch them closely. Moving them to the fuge is a bad idea. I would imagine that would drastically decrase the pods and other small life in the fuge, not to mention a waste of lighting. If the clown cant get along with others I will just have to trade it for a calmer species.

Thanks Carmie!

Do you think I could use the 400w over my 75g? I was thinking of running 2 4' T5 actinics as well

How tall is the 75?

the tank is 21" tall

PJ, I think using the 75 is a great idea. I dont know that I would use 2" bulkheads...kinda big. I dont know if you are still thinking about plumbing plan #2, but that CL pump wont work off the drain line. It will suck the water and air flowing down the pipe and pump it directly back into the tank, This will make your tank like the inside of a skimmer, nice and foamy!

Here is how I understand MH fixtures. Each bulb covers a 2'x2' area and a 250 watt bulb is just fine for a 21" deep tank. If you raise the bulb you will cover a bigger footprint but the light outside of the 2x2 area will be diminished. If the 75 is a 4' long tank you probably can't raise the light high enough to cover the whole tank and provide optimal lighting.

Based on the pic where you can see his MH, I would say that most of the light is being wasted because the fixture is so high to avoid melting the tank. Smaller lights would use less power and provide more light to the tank because they could be placed closer to the water.

thanks poppin fresh and Carmie!

I already own a 400w fixture, do you think I could use it or should I try to aquire 2 150w fixtures? I was hoping to not have to buy more light but skimping on light isnt the way to go.

How would I plumb a closed loop? I dont see a difference from using an overflow for only a CL and using it for both a drain and CL? Please help me understand. Is it that you dont use and overflow but a direct line from the tank? Say drill holes under the water lvl in the DT just for the closed loop, no overflow? How does one keep from sucking inhabitants into the CL? Do you build a DIY cover for the hole? Any ideas on bulkead size for a closed loop system?

I was going with 2" bulkheads because I figured bigger is better (home Improvment syndrome)when talking about flow and with a CL running off the overflow I thought I would need the holes. With no closed loop how large of bulkheads would you recomend? I thought with ball valves on the drains I could go with big bulkheads and just turn it down if needed, is there a better way?

John, I really don't know the right answer to the light question. If you put the 400 up high it could spread out and cover the whole tank. You could keep high light species in the center and lower light species out to the sides. But, if you are having a DSB you could probably use dual 150's for 300w total and save 100 watts of power. Then you would have the proper light spread all over the tank.

well I will look into trading my light or buying a few 150w MHs

I am pretty sure I sun burned my arms picking macros off my rocks. I didnt think about my arms being intches away from my 400w MH. That was a mistake I am sure I will pay for later. Good news is I cleared out a section of rock and didnt get "stung" by any BWs.

I am looking at a dual 150, 175, or 250 watt MH retro kit off e-bay. I think I can get the lights shipped with 15k bulbs for about $200-$250. Then another $100 for 2 48" actinics with reflectors. Hopefully I will be able to start putting corals in the upper half of the tank, in my 46g they just bleach/die up near the surface. My LFs guy definently was wrong about lighting, a 400w was way to big!

I ordered 3x-1.5" bulkheads($23.97), two 120mm 1600rpm computer fans ($27.53), one 2 3/8 diamond coated glass drill bit ($25.83 bulk reef supply), and a bucket of red sea coral pro salt ($45 Foster and Smith). I wanted to give the salt a try after the latest TRL episode and it just so happens my instant ocean is almost gone.

Hopefully I can win an ETSS skimmer on e-bay soon.

Will be drilling soon :) Heres hoping the water dam idea isnt a damn idea.

Do you have a UV shield on the light?

The water dam idea has always worked for me, but if you can drill it outside you can just run a hose across it while you drill.

I do have a UV shield on the light, or I believe I do. From TR episode on MH I learned the single non HQI bulbs need shield but the other mongrul (sp?) bases are already UV shielded by the bulb. I though about that after the post, without the UV I cant burn...lol anyway I was fine.

I am going to drill the tank outside. I didnt think I would run the hose over the tank because my aparments "back yard" doesnt drain well and I dont want to be standing in water with a corded drill. I thought I would have my wife pour/squirt water over the bit along with a small dam.

I would have someone pouring a little water over it while you drill. Just make sure not to shock the glass by letting it get hot and then dumping on the water. You wont need a lot of water either. A small trickle will provide plenty of heat removal.

Great

thanks

The bit arrived just before I had to leave for work tonight, I am going to try to drill it later today, after a bit of sleep. I think my spare 10 or 20g tanks will make good practice tanks! The bulkheads also arrived, They seem a bit big for the 60mm hole that they "require." we will see after the first hole is drilled in my 10g.

well I went to lowes for masking tape and plumbers putty. I came home with 10ft of 1/2pvp, 5ft of 4in pvc, a 4in t, a 4in screw cap end peice, a 4in closed toilet base (i believe thats what it is), and masking tape. I got home and realized no plumber putty! Gar, there is always tomorrow for drilling. I can always build my tube fuge tonight (see TR ep88)!

I am notorious at the hardware store for staring at the PVC for an hour while I design my system in my head. I then buy the stuff and return a couple hours later to get the one stupid fitting I forgot to buy. It would be a lot easier if I planned the system out on paper and made a list of what to buy, but that seems like too much hassle. :D

what do people use to clean their pvp pipes before using? mine is really dirty, i was thinking water or acitate then water.

I won a skimmer off e-bay today. I got a downdraft ETSS. I think it is rated to for tanks up to 300 gallons. Mines total volume is 121, it may be a bit overkill but the sps corals should stay happy this way. It was a good deal. I got the skimmer with the magdrive 7 and shipping to my door for $200. Not bad for a $500 skimmer new. This is my first skimmer, so I am sure I will need some help setting it up :)

I also should be getting a dual 175 watt MH 15k retro kit with eletronic balast soon. I got it off ebay about a week ago...waves goodbye to another $200.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2404/2349403944_a892be7d30.jpg?v=0
This is a sump/fuge design I thought up today.

My new skimmer is bottom left. This is my first skimmer, does the outlet from the skimmer have enough force to run the water up and over the side of the tank 20" ish in. Or should I just run it in the tank? That may be the simpler version...my neighbor said in the alaskan oil fields they have a saying K.I.S.S. Keep it simple stupid. In sump is probably the easiest, and then if god forbid the skimmer ever breaks It wont flood.

The yellow thing is a tube fuge like in TRep88 but with no pump. I am running it off the downpipe. Does anyone know if a system like that can be run off a drain? It would be a shame if it wouldnt work off gravity alone. I think it will work but I am no experienced pipe fitter!

I was thinking of splitting the sand bed and mud bed with a bit of acryllic. I want a 5-6" deep bed of both. GARF runs several mud beds and reports great success. I live here in FL and I was considering collecting sample amounts of sand and mud from the coasts to help seed the mud and up the diversity. I am unsure of the risks, I would hate to bring in something that would make my life hell. I am also going to get some of the seed products from GARF. They are "safe" and I dont believe it would be a problem. I am also considering a mangrove in the mudbed. I heard they suck up mag like crazy but also do a great job filtering. I was planning on using a standard 2 bulb 48" fl shop light with 6500k bulbs.

I have a 770 gph little giant pump and was considering using that as my return line pump. It might not be powerful enough but my question would be accurate either way. Can a person plumb the pump so it draws water up out of the tank, to the pump, and then to the DT? Or do I need/have to drill the side of the fuge?

thanks guys, I'm working :showoff: on it

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3055/2348568313_fc933658f6.jpg?v=0
Another idea/drawing

the red Q: When figuring the number of tank turn overs do you use the total number of gallons in the system or just the amount in the DT? My total volume will be about 121g, 75g DT, 46g sump/fuge. This will define what pumps I have to buy.

I was trying to figure out how to build overflows and came up with an idea. Get a 6" or larger diameter pvc pipe and have it cut in half creating 2 half circles. notch the top 1" to "surface skim" and put in a few lower water inlets. Are lower water inlets needed, or what are they for?I saw them in comercial designs, I thought they might be important.

I then thought I could get better flow in the tank by having returns from the closed loop at all lvls in the tank. I didnt want exposed pipe (yes i know the 6" pvp will be exposed) so I thought why not run the smaller return lines into the overflow and drill them through the overflow in the desired locations. Does thats sound like it is do-able?

How do ppl like to feed their closed loops? I saw someones tank using a T shaped inlet or something like what I drew. The water was pulled from the tank over the side, through the pump, and back into the tank. I also thought I saw someone drill a hole. Will either work well? If you drill a hole does it need to have an overflow or just a screen?

I put in alot of returns for the closed loop and fuge return. Is there a magic number of nozels per gph? Is there a way to tell if you have to many or not enough before you build it?

Here goes

1. I dont know if the outlet from the skimmer will go up and over, but I doubt it. I would guess the water will exit the lowest point, which may be the collection cup! In tank is always safer!

2. I would NOT run that tube 'fuge off the drain, it will trap all the nasty stuff coming from the display and become a nitrate factory.

3. No you shouldn't plumb the pump above the sump so that it has to suck water up. In order for this to work the pump will have to be "primed" every time its turned off, which will be a huge PITA. Plus if you aren't home and the power goes out, the pump will restart dry and burn out.

4. Turnover is expressed as the volume of the display that travels to the filtration. IE: If you flow 300gph from your 75g display down to your sump, you have a 4X turnover (300 divided by 75).

5. I would skip the large PVC for making overflows...its very expensive. There are probably less expensive alternatives. Lower water inlets are not needed, surface skimming is more important.

6. The over the top closed loop can work, but it is not the best way. If you drill for an inlet it will need to be lower in the tank, you will not want it to suck air. You will only need a screen to cover the inlet.

Thank you for the advice

I revieved my E.T.S.S. Skimmer and mag 7 pump today. I cant wait to set it up on my current DT and see how it does. The tank has been skimmerless for almost a year, everything grows fine so I havent worried. Now that I am rebuilding I figured I could spend the time and money to get it right.

I also revieved my 2x175watt MH 15k eletronic ballast, reflectors, bulbs, and cords...

Now all I have to do is drill

well I went to lowes for masking tape and plumbers putty. I came home with 10ft of 1/2pvp, 5ft of 4in pvc, a 4in t, a 4in screw cap end peice, a 4in closed toilet base (i believe thats what it is), and masking tape. I got home and realized no plumber putty! Gar, there is always tomorrow for drilling. I can always build my tube fuge tonight (see TR ep88)!

LOL BEEN THERE :rotfl:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2257/2382371844_067ab2c471_m.jpg
Well I tried drilling my spare 10g tank. I think it is/was all tempered not just the bottom. It is really discouraging to my DIY drilling dreams. I am a bit afraid my 75g might be tempered on the sides as well. It hard to know till you try. The tank says the bottom is tempered...i sure hope the sides are not. If only I thought my wife would let me buy another tank if i broke my 75g.