Ok I am not exactly new at saltwater but man I have gotten a lot of wrong information. I feel like I have done nothin but put money down the drain!!! I have tried other forums but never got really good feed back so im trying this one. My nitrates for some reason are spiked in my tank and I have done water changes eliminated my lion fish and everything and the nitrates are still not going down. I read some of the forums about the wet/dry filter and im wondering if i should replace my bio balls with live rock and how this will help my tank? I just dont know what to do anymore? And I need to know how to go about doing this I feel like im starting all over again. I have a 60 gallon tank with about 60 to 80 pounds of live rock with a compact floresent light for now. I have a wet/dry filter for up to 125 gallons a skimmer a canister filter and some power heads how do i get these nitrates to balance all my other levels are zero. So any help will really really be appreciated thank you very much.
JennyB

Hi JennyB, and welcome to TalkingReef. I think you'll find that this is the friendlies and most helpful forum around.

There are a couple of things that jump out at me immediately. Bio-balls in a wet/dry situation are well know nitrate factories if they are not cleaned every few days, and cleaned very, very well. the same goes for your canister filter.

While wet/dry filters are excellent at converting ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate, they are incapable of converting nitrate to nitrogen gas. the short explanation is, the bacteria that does this is anaerobic, and bio-balls and canister filters are highly oxygenated places. Anaerobic bacteria lives deep inside live rock, and in the lower levels of a deep sandbed if you have one.

IMO, you should remove the bio-balls. Since they are currently a significant part of your biological filtration, you should remove them gradually. A handful every couple of days should be fine. A lot of people advocate replacing bio-balls with live rock. I have a differing opinion here though. It really depends on the wet/dry filter. If the area where you will be adding the LR is above water, say, under a drip plate, where you find most bio-balls, then adding rubble will do pretty much the same thing the bio-balls did. LR should be completely submerged for best denitirification.

Continuing to use the canister is completely up to you. If you do continue to use it, you will have to clean it often and very thoroughly to avoid it being colonized with nitrifying bacteria. It would solely be mechanical filtration to trap detritus, run carbon or other media, etc.

Speaking of detritus, that's another thing to look out for. the breakdown of detritus generates nitrates. You should be trying to siphon out as much detritus as you can when you change the water, and not allowing it to build up in the wet/dry either.

Beyond these things, there are additional steps you can take, such as utilizing a DSB, either in the tank or remotely in a bucket, or setting up a sulfur denitrator. I'd see how it goes after dealing with the wet/dry and the canister, and a couple of good sized waterchanges.

Please keep us up to date.

Wow you def know your s*** that helps me out big time because before i even had this wet/dry i just ran like a regular bio wheel filter and the skimmer with the canister i never had one problem with nitrates ever untill i hooked up the wet dry. So with the sand bed what does that do for the tank and where would i put it because would i be able to put that in the sump? I dont really know how to go about setting this up and i have a hard time understanding some things so i mean it really has to be broken down for me. Umm yea the bioballs are no sumerged in water its the drip system and are you able to add sand to your aquarium after its been running or would that cause the tank to recycle? Also when cleaning my tank should i be suctioning down deep in the crushed coral? Thank you very much for the help

If you have crushed coral, and are going to keep it, then yes, you should be agressively cleaning it when you do waterchanges. You need to get as much gunk out of there as you can.

There are several options for a DSB. You can certainly add one to your tank if you wish. This would be the most difficult, but by far the most helpful. it will be a real PITA because you will have to remove as much of the crushed coral as you can before adding the sand. But, because the crushed coral is currently colonized by bacteria, like the bio-balls, you can't just take it all out at once, especially if you're removing the bio-balls as well.
I'd tackle one, then the other, not at the same time. Say you take a month to remove the bio-balls, then another month to remove the CC. Once you have removed as much of the CC as you can get, you can go ahead and add the DSB to the display. because you will not be adding it to an existing sandbed, there shouldn't be a problem adding it all at once. It'll make a mess, and your water will be cloudy for a while, but it will be OK. For an effective DSB, you'll need between 4"-6" of sand. The catch with a DSb is, it takes a while to become active. On the order of several months. If adding one to the display tank is too much hassle, you can use what's called a remote DSB, which is basicaly a 5 gallon bucket about 2/3 of the way full with sand, and only a couple hundred GPH flowing across it. If that's the route you'd rather go, i can get Bobby over here to explain how he has set his up. Same deal though, it will take a while to start reducing nitrates.

Feel free to hit us with any questions you have, or if anything is unclear. We're here to help as best we can :)

Ok so now what does the sand do? Also I was told not to go deep into the CC because of the good bacteria but obviously that was wrong and I didn't think it was right because there is a whole lot of crap in the CC. What would you say to do first the crushed coral or the bioballs? If I do the wet dry filter first do I remove the pads that are in it to? Because how my wet dry is is that it comes down and goes onto this pad in a tray then drips down onto some bioballs. Then the water underneath that flows towards the front through a like 2 inch thick blue pad then back to the pump so would this all be removed? I have nitrate media in the canister and laying on the bottom of the sump should this be placed somewhere else in the sump?

A Deep Sand Bed of 4"-6" will allow the regular nitrifying bacteria, as well as pods, worms and other beneficial critters to colonize the upper 2/3, aiding in removal of fish and invert waste and detritus, and the lower 1/3 will become anaerobic and harbor the denitrifying bacteria that reduce nitrate to nitrogen gas.

You definitely want to clean as much of the gunk out of the CC as you can. because of it's larger size, all the bacteria will be on the surface of the CC and you will not bother it by cleaning.

Removing the bio-balls and doing a good clean of the filter, canister, substrate and all filter pads would be of immediate benefit, whereas installing a DSB won't be of much help for a couple of months. I'd start with the bio-balls and a really good cleaning and several good sized water changes. Who knows, you may be OK after all of that and not need to do anything further.

So now where do i put the media bags with the nitrate stones in it should i put them somwhere in the sump?

Hi Jenn,
http://www.theculturedreef.com/welcome.gifto Talking Reef Forum.

For a short but informative read about DSBs, go to this link and click on the thumbnail pic of Dr. Ron Shimek's book - Sand Bed Secrets (http://www.theculturedreef.com/aragonite.htm) Then click on the link in my signature area about my 135 gal tank thread here on TR. I did with a wet/dry trickle filter what Phurst is referring to. Many of your questions will be answered in my tank thread.

Then come back, as I'm sure more questions will come to mind. We're here to help straighten out miss information given by well meaning people and LFS employees.

Dick

i am following along too, but it looks like Pearson and Dick have you covered.

How big of a water change should I do and how often because my nitrates are at dangerous levels? Also I took a handful of bio balls out today

i would change out about 1/3 of the water.

Ok well what about the nitrate media that i have in the canister filter should i put this in my sump some how?

I'm not sure what Nitrate media you have but, I would eliminate it altogether. It isn't doing it's job or has absorbed all the Nitrate it can and needs to be replaced. I'd just get rid of it.

Something to think about... If, for instance, your Nitrate reading is 60ppm and you change out 1/3 of your water, theoretically your new reading should be 40ppm. I say theoretically because, in my experience with high Nitrates, changing the water never seems to lower it to what I would expect. In this case 60 to 40ppm. why??? Well, that's the question. I think when Nitrates got so high our test kits don't read accurately and so several water changes in short order are necessary along with finding the cause and correcting that, too. I think you are on your way to finding and correcting the cause.

Dick

Ok well I am working on the 1/3 water change now and i am going to eliminate the nitrate media. That should save me some money.....I really cleaned out the CC on the bottom of the tank and there was so much build up in there it was unreal the tank looks beautiful now with the light reflecting off the nice clean CC. So so far eveything is going very well and I also took out a handful of the bioballs......Now should I keep the bioballs for anything or just throw them out? Also in my canister filter there is a pad and carbon in the should I eliminate the pad thats in there and just leave the carbon? I have some time off of work right now and its gonna be for awhile so I am able to research research reseach and talk to you guys to help improve my tank. I want to thank you guys very much for all of your help so far I think this is the best website I have been on yet you guys are all very accurate or talk along the same line about things its not jumping all over the place so that is a really big help...

IMO, anything that collects 'gunk" should either be removed or throughly cleaned every few days.

Ok well then I will have to put all this stuff on things to do on my days off. So should i take out bioballs everyday or every couple of days? And should i put anything back in it or just let it run with just the pads that are in it?

Well, you could sorta feel your way along, and test for ammonia and nitrite as you go, but removing a handfull every few days shouldn't be an issue at all.

You can leave the pads in place if you wish, and are willing to clean them. That's also a place you might place some carbon or phosban or other media.

So are you saying i could put carbon where the pads are or where the bioballs come out of i could put some carbon or phosban?

As long as you use a mesh bag to contain the media, you could put them in either place. I was thinking where the bio-balls were, just so you're using the space for something, but the water flow through the media may not be the best there. You would know better than I actually. You just want them somewhere water is forced through the media if possible.

Ok well how does this sound underneath the tray that holds up the bioballs i could put live rock so it will stay completley sumerged then put the mesh bags with the carbon and phosban on top of the milk crat looking tray thing then eliminate the drawer completely at the top where the water comes in and creates the drip system. So if i eliminate the drawer the water will spray over the mesh bags with the carbon and phosban in stead of the whole drip system thing where the bags wont get a lot of water.

Sounds like a plan :up:

I also wanted to tell you that when i went to my LFS today to get some salt because i ran out that i told them what you were telling me and how you have been telling me along with other people on here how to go about eliminating things and putting sand and things in the tank. I also told him how i really cleaned the CC and he almost had a heart attack saying he never heard of that and he would never do something like that in his tank because that what someone did to his tank and he went through a big nitrate spike. But then he turns around and says well if what they are telling you is right and works then let me know so I can do it for himself after he just said to me that he had his planned figured out so that just showed me right there that he didnt know WTH he was talking about.

Hi Jenny and :welcome: to TR! I can't add anything to what has already been said except send the LFS guy over here. :)

LOL, that's funny. Just remember to TAKE YOUR TIME, and you shouldn't have any issues.

When I add the sand eventually to my tank its supposed to be 4-6 inches deep right? And what sand would you recommend to use and where do you guys find the best prices?

You'll want to use oolitic aragonite sand. It's expensive, but it's what you want. You may be able to find a good deal online, but it's heavy, so shipping might offset whatever savings you can find over the LFS. I believe Dick (Amphibious) was trying to work out a way to ship some pretty cheap aragonite. Might want to check with him.

i would recommend an Aragonite based sand. it does not really need to be the "LIVE" sand that most LFS's sell (it will all be live soon enough). if you get a few pieces of cured live rock to sit on the sand, it will seed it with everything that you need. or you can find a reef club in your area and get a cup or two of sand from one of the local reefers to seed it with.

check with Amphibious (Dick) here ... he is a TR sponsor and i think he has found boxes that are sturdy enough to ship bags of sand in. he can probably give you the best deal on the net for it.

Pearson ... i gotta learn to type faster !!

Pearson ... i gotta learn to type faster !!

LOL, you usualy beat me, it's nice of you to let me win one every once in a while ;)

Ok well is the sand the stuff that dr foster and smith carries to or am i looking at the wrong thing? Also what does seeding mean and can i do it right in the tank?

I am sure the Drs must carry sand. I would not waste my money on a product labeled live if it comes in a sealed plastic bag. Just buy aragonite (http://www.theculturedreef.com/aragonite.htm) non-live sand. I echo what has been said about The Cultured Reef. Seeding is what will happen to the sand once you either put it in a tank with LR or add a cup of sand from an established tank.

Your sand will be seeded from the LR in your tank. You could speed it along, as mentioned, by adding a cup full of sand from an established sandbed.

Ok well what exactly does seeding mean and how much do i need to put in of the live sand like to i have to put a certain amount of cups per so many pounds? Would this be what im looking for? Aragamax Aquarium Sand (http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+10741+7321&pcatid=7321)

it means that the sand that you get from someone else will add enough bacteria to your sand to get it started with colonizing the bacteria that happens during the cycle.

But this won't cause the tank to cycle again right adding the sand because i have already had my tank up for about an year?

Yep, that'll do just fine.

As long as you use plain old dead sand, you will not have a new cycle. If you use the bagged "live" sand then you likely will, because it's typically "dead, rotten" sand.

In an established tank, it's not necessary to seed the sand bed, the desirable critters and bacteria will migrate into the sand from your rock. Adding a cup or two of sand from someone elses tank just speeds up the process. Literally a cup (like a plastic Solo cup) is plenty.

Ok awsome thank you so much for all the advice I really really appreciate it you guys were the biggest help I have found yet!!!!!!!! Well I'm outty for the night so thank you very much that tank looks great after a long day of work.

I also wanted to tell you that when i went to my LFS today to get some salt because i ran out that i told them what you were telling me and how you have been telling me along with other people on here how to go about eliminating things and putting sand and things in the tank. I also told him how i really cleaned the CC and he almost had a heart attack saying he never heard of that and he would never do something like that in his tank because that what someone did to his tank and he went through a big nitrate spike. But then he turns around and says well if what they are telling you is right and works then let me know so I can do it for himself after he just said to me that he had his planned figured out so that just showed me right there that he didnt know WTH he was talking about.
Good night Jenn. You will read this in the AM, I guess.

You just learned a great lesson from "Reefing 101", most LFS employees don't know WTH they are talking about! That's great. Don't ever forget that lesson. Forums like TR are made up of reefers that come from all walks of life. One thing we have in common is a thirst for knowledge. We help each other. There isn't a better forum than TR. I know because I'm a member on 22 reef forums.

I do have Aragonite sand. The problem is boxing and shipping. I can't find the proper size box and shipping is costly. I'm looking into 2 gal plastic pails but the cost is prohibitive, $2.65 per pail with cover.

I echo all the fore given advice on buying dry Aragonite sand not the live stuff in a bag. Buying live sand from a collector that gets it fresh from the ocean is different. We're talking about CaribSea's live aragonite sand.

You're going to want to rinse the sand several times before putting it into the tank to get rid of the super-fine particles. The water will turn the color of skim milk. Swirl it around cautiously dump out the "milk" and do it again and again till the water is nearly clear. Then use Carmie's trick of sealing it in a zip lock baggie and lowering it into the tank, turn the bag upside-down and slowly unzip the baggie and let the sand pour out. Seal the bag back up and most of the remaining "milk" can be taken out with the baggie.

Hope this helps.

Dick

Ok when i posted a few posts before i put a website it can some of you click on that so i know if thats what im looking for thanks a bunch

Yep, that sand is just fine.

Yes, Jenn, that's what you want. It's what I have (right from the Bahamas) but can't ship at this time.

Dick

Wow Phurst, you and I are so eager to help Jenn, we're both sitting at our keyboard at her disposal.

yup, thats what you want.

LOL, my job requires I be in front of a computer the better part of the day. At least they let me come to TR :)

now you NEED to post pics of those frags you just got !!

back to regular insanity ..........

And Bobby, too. Jenn, you've got to feel special. :heart: :love!: :rotfl:

now you NEED to post pics of those frags you just got !!

back to regular insanity ..........

Hold your horses, they're uploading to PhotoBucket as I type.

You guys make me feel loved I feel important lol. :love!: Do you guys ever try to get together after talking so much on this TR?:up:

I am sure the Drs must carry sand. I would not waste my money on a product labeled live if it comes in a sealed plastic bag. Just buy aragonite (http://www.theculturedreef.com/aragonite.htm) non-live sand. I echo what has been said about The Cultured Reef. Seeding is what will happen to the sand once you either put it in a tank with LR or add a cup of sand from an established tank.
One buys the live sand for the heterotrophic bacteria that may or may not not survive, but more importantly for the autotrophic bacteria that is present from the onset. With a viable bag of live sand, you can track the new tank cycle of ammonia and nitrite and never get a registered reading of nitrate.

Ok well how does this sound underneath the tray that holds up the bioballs i could put live rock so it will stay completley sumerged then put the mesh bags with the carbon and phosban on top of the milk crat looking tray thing then eliminate the drawer completely at the top where the water comes in and creates the drip system. So if i eliminate the drawer the water will spray over the mesh bags with the carbon and phosban in stead of the whole drip system thing where the bags wont get a lot of water.

Yeah - the gears are turning nicely - we're starting to get back to where we used be guys, great to see - Especially Old war horses like Ampage & blubber will remember clearly, threads used to fly some time back, cause we all got involved. Talk to us about the above more please jen. Its alot of space being used for only passive means of the carbon & PO4 remover, not to mention the super O2 saturation zone harbouring the same bacteria as if you still had bio-balls in play.

Ok well to start off good morning everyone. Ok well I took another handful of bioballs out today everything in the tank is doing really well!!!!!!!!:agree: I very pleased with everything so far!!!! Ok well the sump I dont know really what else to put in it after taking the bioballs out like I dont really know what else good be put in can you guys help me???

Well, you could add carbon, phosban, purigen or whatever, you could add filter floss, but you'd have to clean it several times a week, or you could just leave it empty. No harm in that.

You guys make me feel loved I feel important lol. :love!: Do you guys ever try to get together after talking so much on this TR?:up:

hopefully we are all going to be at Macna this year. that is about as close as it gets to us all getting together. i DO talk to Pearson on the phone every now and then though.

Where is the conference????????

this year it is in Atlanta, home of the Atlanta Aquarium, and i also think that Atlanta is the home of the much sought after ATL. limited edition corals !!

When is it and what do you do there?

it is that largest Marine Aquarium conference in north america (probably the world) ... hence the name Marine Aquarium Conference of North America. it is a 3 day event that has everything marine aquarium related that you could possibly imagine.

MACNA XX Atlanta (http://www.macnaxx.com/index.html)

What are the dates of it?

It's Sept 5-7. It's a day drive for me, and I'm trying hard to get there, but my little journey to Beijing next month may use up all of my travel goodwill with my wife :)

i can stop and pick you up ... it is only a few hundred miles out of my way !! lol

I think im going to go i am looking at hotels.....

It would be great meeting you at MACNA, Jenn. You will be blown away by the exhibits of merchandise, corals, the seminars, and of course your new friends from TR.

Dick

I'm going! I have my registration paid for and a room at the Westin reserved! Jenny, last year's MACNA in Pittsburgh was my first and I loved it! Not only are the displays and talks wonderful it was GREAT meeting my friends from TR!

I wish I would have known about the one in pittsburgh the drive would have been nothing for me..

One buys the live sand for the heterotrophic bacteria that may or may not not survive, but more importantly for the autotrophic bacteria that is present from the onset. With a viable bag of live sand, you can track the new tank cycle of ammonia and nitrite and never get a registered reading of nitrate.

OK, so I understand heterotrophic and autotrophic and the value of the bacteria. But I don't see how it can still be viable in a bag that has been packaged who knows how long and been subject to who knows what extremes in temperature?

that is my thinking too Carmie ... maybe FW can enlighten us ??

So, how's the tank?