OK I'll start off hi everyone i have been reading the site for about 3 hours now, gathering as much info as possible. I am new to salt water, and am planning on getting a tank. i see a lot of talk about these bio cubes and stuff, but i am looking more in the 55 gallon range, is this ok for a beginner?? next, i have someone that can sell me a 58 gallon tank with an overflow (she said it was an overflow, it is a big black column in the back of the tank with two holes drilled at the bottom) would this be a wise choice for me and what equipment should i get to go with it. i have read a few books over the past few weeks, and still feel confused about what to get. my initial plan is FOWLR. my main problem here is the girl who is selling the tank has another buyer lined up and i have to let her know soon if i want it. and help would be greatly appriciated

i would go with the 58 if the price is right on it. with it having a built in overflow you will have the option to make it a reef when the time comes (and it usually comes). if you dont want to use the overflows ... you can always plug off the holes and use the tank by itself.

for a tank with overflows ... you usually want to run a sump either under the tank or in a remote location. if you want to start out FO and switch to reef you will already have the tank. then you will just need to buy the other equipment ... skimmer, lighting, sump tank or tub, etc.

Thanks, i will be picking up the tank most likely tomorrow, woudl you be able to direct me to a good place to leanr about/buy a sump because none of the books i have really cover them in detail. i understand the basic principal, and is seems most poeple think that live rock is the way to go, but the process of getting the right one is still confusing me, but for now i at least i know that the tank will do. THanks again!

if you can, listen to the podcasts they've been a big help to me. and welcome to TR

Thanks, i plan on it, from what i have read they seem to be very helpful. i was in a rush for the tank, because i needed to buy it, but i am planningn on learning as much as i can before i buy anything else so i can figure out exactly what would be the ideal set up for me. any suggestions would be welcome.

what would the ideal setup would be, will depend on what you are planning for the future of the tank. HOWEVER, a sump is, IMO, an excellent piece of equipment for any marine tank.

check this out for sump ideas, he sells them too !!

Melevsreef.com | Acrylic Sumps & Refugiums (http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html)

the link goes into great detail on how they work and what you will need for what you want to keep.

Hi asneeze531 and :welcome: to TR!

A bigger tank is always more forgiving and a 58 is a nice size. Nanos are great, I have one, but it is much more sensitive than my 54. Like Bobby, I definitely recommend a sump. I am a fan live rock (LR) and a deep sand bed (DSB) for your tank's filtration. If you are on a budget you will find that you can buy mostly base rock, like this Dry Rock (http://www.marcorocks.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=14) from a TR sponsor, Marco Rocks and and a smaller amount of LR. The LR will seed the base rock and it will all be live eventually.

As far as sand goes I recommend a product like this aragonite (http://www.theculturedreef.com/aragonite.htm) from The Cultured Reef, another TR sponsor. Make sure to read the Skimek article on the site. I am not a proponent of so called live sand in a bag. After all how lively would you be sealed in a plastic bag and stuck on a shelf for who know how long? Once again the LR will seed it. Even better, get a local reefkeepers or two to give you a cup of sand from their tank.

How large of a sump should i use for my 58, the link above says that as large as possible, but what would be a good starting point so i can get an idea of a good size?
thanks again for all the help
Jay

i would say to go with the biggest that you can fit under the tank (in the stand), but be sure to leave enough room to get your hands and possibly ARMS into. i would estimate that a 40breeder would be a good starting point if you want to do a DIY type sump, but it is hard to say without knowing the measurements inside your stand.

THanks, that gives me a good place to start, along with the link you provided earlier. i am downloading the podcasts as wee speak, and plan on listening tho them asap. thanks guys! really glad i found this place.

thats what we're here for my friend. i remember when i was new to the hobby too.

OK so i had a change of plans, the tank that i was going to get had a crack in the side, the owner said it woudl be fine, but i didn't trust that, so i passed. my friends mother is moving and has a salt water set up that she never used, and she sold me her stuff. so i now have a 46 gallon bow front with a stand, a wet dry filter system with the siphon to hang on the back of the tank and the pump to go with it and a lighting system for the tank. so now for the questions. i know everyone says to go with the sump, but i didn't have a choice but to take the wet dry filter, she was selling it as a whole package. it has those bio balls in it, again it was never used, but i see a lot of people say to not use them and use live rock instead. what it seems people are suggesting is to remove those balls and put live rock in there instead. is this what i should do? what else besides the protein skimmer shoudl i get to go along with it? I decided to go this route because the price she gave me was about what i woudl spend on the tank and the stand alone, so i figured it couldn't hurt.

OK so i had a change of plans, the tank that i was going to get had a crack in the side, the owner said it woudl be fine, but i didn't trust that, so i passed.

Okay...there is reason number one to ask others and not depend on a "seller". Uhuh...and I have a propane grill that is "okay" too...but the tank leaks...just a little :o

my friends mother is moving and has a salt water set up that she never used, and she sold me her stuff.

My only concern here would be: How long has it been sitting around? I've seen some tanks come out of the back rooms of LFS that are so old that the silicone is useless. Before you get too excited... do a leak test on that bad boy.

wet dry filter system

Please do read about natural filtration and the pros and cons of wet/dry systems...k?

know everyone says to go with the sump, but i didn't have a choice but to take the wet dry filter, she was selling it as a whole package. it has those bio balls in it, again it was never used, but i see a lot of people say to not use them and use live rock instead.

My first sump was a converted wet/dry. Yes, lose the bio balls and put live rock rubble in there instead. You can even begin with the majority of the rock being "dead" or base rock. Search this site for "Marco Rocks". You can then use some percentage of "live rock" to kick start the bacteria cultures.

what i should do?

Yes, get a skimmer. A good one. Research this too. I try hard not not to name "commercial" names whether I know/feel that they are good or bad. In any case, there are plenty of folks who do and they post often. A skimmer is important. Make sure you get a decent one, rated for your system. Include your sump as "total gallons".

You will need a heater. You should probably tell us what you want to "keep" for any additional inputs. ie. You say "with lights". What lights? Type? Watts? Are you going to keep fish only? Do you want corals? If yes to coral... soft corals? Large Polyp Stonies? Small Polyp Stonies?

Do you have an RO/DI system or access to good quality 0 PPM water? You could buy water, but you'll have to take out another mortgage after some time. RO/DI systems pay themselves off quickly.

Keep reading...keep asking... (there are no dumb questions but the one not asked). Look at some of our members' "tank project" threads for other ideas for equipment. Again, depending on your desired set up, the list could be "quick and dirty" or could be endless ;)

Dave

thanks alot, i plan on doing a leak test on it today, she did tell me that is it leaked, she woudl give me my money back so i'll be ok there, even if there is another problem. thanks for your suggestion on the live rock i am definately gonna do that. do i need any toher form of filtration? some places say that there should be other types, of course i am not looking to put equipment that i don't need on my tank , and saving money is also a plus as well, and of course i want to do this right. thanks again!

the LR, LS, and skimmer will be about all of the filtration that you will need in there. that is one of the major reasons that people say "do NOT skimp on the skimmer".

LOSE the bio balls ... and replace them with LR rubble.

You may want to look into things such as UV systems etc. later...but for now, you are on the right track.

You may also want to see if the tank is tempered (glass) or not. IF not, you may want to drill for an overflow rather than use the overflow box/siphon tube rig. Some, like Rob, have had good luck with these configurations. I had nothing but headaches and have drilled out my tanks to make them "Reef Ready" ever since.

Dave

I use an old wet/dry for a sump. Here is a picture. Yes I know it needs cleaned!

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f198/CarmieJo/DSC_8281.jpg

^^^ STILL ^^^ needs to be cleaned !!

Actually I did clean it, I just didn't take a new picture!

good girl !! i thought you would never get around to cleaning that thing.

That looks clean compared to mine. :tongue2:

I decided a long time ago that cleaning was not all it was cracked up to be. :D

Salt creep around my filter zone is just a reminder that I need to add make-up water. :rotfl:

Once again thanks for the responses, i got some more questons for ya. For the wet dry filter, taking out the bio balls is what i am gonna do, so here is my question: a guy at one of my LFS said to fill the thing to just below the bio balls, is this the same for the live rock , or deos it need to be completely submerged? thanks again

The LR needs to be submerged. When determining fill level make sure to allow room for when the return is off.

ok thanks, thats what ithought, but i wanted to check, and shoudl i keep in the filter media that is supposed to be between the bio balls and the tank?

I don't use it in mine.

thanks, thats what i thought, what abou the filter media that i my filter has before where the bio balls are supposed to be, do i keep that in place or remove it?

I've removed it from mine.

OK so i basically fill the wet dry filter up and put the live rock in, then just run it. but make sure i leave enough room for the overflow when the return is off. and other than the protein skimmer i shoudl be good filter wise. thats pretty amazing the that live rock can take care of all that. also how much live rock can i add when i fill my tank, i have read in some places that it sholdn't add too much at one time so i wanted to check to see what you guys thought

Since you are just setting the tank up I would add all of the rock at one time.

Carmie, I think he means the LR in the bio-ball chamber. In that case the LR would not be complelely covered.

You know how it is Dick, you see what you think.

Jay, if you use rock in the bioball chamber it needs to be totally submerged. In fact, I have caulerpa in my bioball chamber and the LR is on the bottom under the chamber and going over to the area where the pumps are. If you use in the bioball chamber you will have to be religions about top-off water so you don't expose the rock to the air and allow it to become a nitrate producer. Within that criteria you could add all of the rock you want to the sump or display at the same time since there are no fish in the tank.

You know how it is Dick, you see what you think.

That's very true Carmie. And when I hear people talk about wet/dry filters and bio balls I think of the chambers holding the bio balls as being the wet/dry chamber meaning it has water trickling down through the bio balls. A filter such as this...

http://www.theculturedreef.com/lg-22840-39523-fish-filter.jpg


By removing the bio balls and replacing them with LR, there is no way the LR in the trickle area can be submerged. I used the largest version of the above trickle filter in my own system. Here is a picture of it for those who haven't seen my tank thread.

http://www.theculturedreef.com/135%20Rock-12.jpg

It shows clearly that I removed the bio balls and replaced them with LR that is not submerged.

Getting back to our young reefer asneeze's question...

Once again thanks for the responses, i got some more questons for ya. For the wet dry filter, taking out the bio balls is what i am gonna do, so here is my question: a guy at one of my LFS said to fill the thing to just below the bio balls, is this the same for the live rock , or deos it need to be completely submerged? thanks again
You can see the filter water level is just below the trickle chamber which is the normal operating level. The LR above that level is not going to become a nitrate factory because of the slow flow of water through the LR which houses the anaerobic denitrifying bacteria deep within.

Now asneeze, does the above pictures resemble, in anyway, the wet/dry trickle that you are talking about??? Or do you have something different??? A picture of what you have would be most helpful.

Dick

Leaving room, BOY THAT SURE IS SOME GOOD ADVICE!!!

i LOVE having a fish room !! all the room i could need (for now) !!

My filter looks like the one you have pictured with the bio balls in it.

I'd consider macro where the bioballs go and LR below that. The macro will reduce nitrites and serve as a pod nursery.

OK well i am jst waiting on my overflow box from life reef, i've been looking around and most people seem to think that that is one of the best out there. i placed the order today, but the site says they are out of stock for 2 weeks, but i would rather be patient and get the right equipment than wind up having more problems later.

My wet/dry filter has a grate that seperates the bio balls from the bottom chamber, how would i go about using macro there? another set p i saw at my LFS had a fuge elevated just above the sump, then pumped back up into the tank from the sump, seemed to me like it looked like a good set up and i could easily make one like it, but i wanted to get some opinions. i won't beable to add water untill my overflow arrives, so untill then i am still in the planning stage. thanks again!

I covered the grate with plastic canvas (get it a craft or sewing shop) to keep the macro in the bioball section.

OK i got my tank filled and the filter pumps and skimmer al working well, i am ready (i think) to add my live rock. My question is do i have to start the cycle with a piece of shrimp, like they talk about in the podcast, or will the live rock do that for me? thanks again

The live rock should be enough to start the process, if it is live. If it is base rock, or rock that is void of any true life, you may have to find another way to cycle. The shrimp worked best for me with base rock. Just ensure that when you get a cloudy water bloom (white, cloudy water), that you remove the shrimp. At that point, you've got a healthy bloom of bacterium that converts the ammonia (from the rotting shrimp) into nitrate. Once that is going, the shrimp is sure to be real funky, and you can remove it. Others will say, leave it in. Again, once you have that cloudy bloom (not from sand), you've started the cycle.

Dave

Great, thanks!

Hey guys got another question, i filed my tank and got 30lbs base rock from marco rocks, i soaked it for a day and put it in my tank and today i got my live rock from my LFS. the container where i was soaking it (the marco rock stuff) was kinda smelly, and now my tank is too. it has only been running for a day and a half. I was wondering if i did something wrong or if this is normal.

You're tank is going to cycle. This is normal. Now the waiting and testing begin.

Dick

ok great, im ok with that i just wanted to make sur that is normal Thanks!

Hmmmm...

Jay, did you read Marcs site or any instruction in posts? The reason I ask is that his rock, as "top quality" as it is, is kind of funky when received and needs good cleaning. I soaked mine for more than two weeks in a twenty gallon barrel, changing the fresh water every other day. After one day of soaking, the water was tea colored. This happened over and over again for a couple weeks, when the water was then clear.

I found urchin spines and other "biological matter" in my Marco Rock. While changing the water in the barrel, I'd jet spray the nooks and crannies of the rock with my garden hose. This is where I found the urchin parts, a few dried star fish, and some crazy seed heads, probably from some seagrasses.

I would imagine that your rock still has some bio-matter within it. You certainly WILL get a cycle from that ;) But if your cycle seems endless, or you begin to have nutrient or algae problems in the tank, I'd take the Marco Rock back out and clean it some more.

Dave

Actually i didn't read that, i must have missed it. i did soak it for about a day and a half, and the wated was tea colored, when i put it in my tank it also was colored, now it has cleared up. do you think i need to remove it and really wash it? i do have some live rock i picked up at my LFS to help things along.

If the water continues to be stained, I'd clean it some more. If the water in your tank has cleared, then I'd leave it alone. Just know that there may be "something" trapped in there that may take some time to break down.

Dave

Hey guys i wanted to check something. i have been testing and i have a queston. my ammonia levels were as follows. thursday they were .5, saturday, 2, and today they were .5 again. i checked my nitrites and i think they were at 2ppm, but the color it turned was not easily read. i filled my tank last wed, and started checking the next day. my tank stopped smelling and is now very clear. i do have about 30lbs live rock and 30 lbs base rock. the tanks is a 46 gallon. i was concerned that the ammonia went down already, i know it takes a wile to cycle so i wanted to check to make sure that is is cycling properly, or too see if i need to do anything else. thanks.

ps my test kit is the api saltwater test kit.

I think you are fine. Every tank is different and so you just can't say the ammonia will be this high, or it will take x days for the nitrites to go up and down.

ok thanks, i checked it again about ten min ago and it is .25 now, so i will just watch it over then next few days to see what it does.

Jay, that sounds like your tank is doing just what it should.

hey guys my tank has cycled, all my valeus are zero, except nitrates, which are at like 5. my question is: i had live rock and base rock, and i got snails today, and i noticed they are eating the red algae on my base rock that has grown sisnce i started the tank. the brown algae i don't really care about, but the rock has some really nice looking redish purple algae that i like, is this normal? should i keep the snails? is this hurting the rock ? is the algae good or bad?
any advice woudl be much appriciated.

Hi Jay,

If the snails are eating it the algae is probably not coralline. They red algae you are seeing may be cyanobacteria. Does it look kind of slimy?

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii55/asneeze531/IMG_0034.jpg

I know it's kinda blurry, but this is the trail that the snail is making in my rock.

one thing i did notice is that the snails sitting on the live rock that i got from my LFS did not eat away a trail, so i am taking that as a good thing. as of now i have 4 in a 46 gal tank, shouel i add more or remove some or is that a good start?

here is a picture that is zoomed out a little

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii55/asneeze531/IMG_0035.jpg


the other guys are doing a good job clearing the glass and stuff, but the algae is getting kinda long. shoudl i do anything about it? the snails have been in there for about 4 days and my levels are still 0 my nitrates went up to 10, but i did a water change and they seem to be going back down. i am gonna be starting my own tank thread so i can keep track of everything better. as usual any comments or suggentions are much appriciated.

also, at this point i am planning on FOWLR, but i will most likely convert to reef later down the line, when is it OK to add fish?

I'd cut off the photoperiod..period.. and finish letting the tank cycle and mature. The algae you are seeing is normal for a new tank, but can get ugly quick. It needs a) food; so feed your tank little to nothing right now. Personally, I'd use pulverized flakes or something for the micro crustaceans etc. but do NOT feed much. They also need b) light to grow. Nothing in your tank needs light right now. Starve it and let the snails take what is in there now.

The snail in the picture is an astrea type turbo. They do good work. Are the ones from the LFS the same type? What you need now are those grazers. Don't get anything whelk like or those silly Ilyanassa/mud snails. They're of no use at this point. True, mexican turbos, and the astreas that you have are wonderful

Dave