Wow! that was fast!

I just noticed one of my cardinals is hording baby cardinals in his mouth. But they caught me unprepared. How do i raise these?

Should i move them to a different tank, or will they be okay with clowns and cleaner shrimp?

I've never had them but my LFS had a pair in one of their tanks and there are now baby bangaii swimming in the tank.

Wow! that was fast!

I just noticed one of my cardinals is hording baby cardinals in his mouth. But they caught me unprepared. How do i raise these?

Should i move them to a different tank, or will they be okay with clowns and cleaner shrimp?
Congratulations Astrivian. Raising Banghais is relatively easy. The male holds the eggs and the fry for about 24 to 30 days depending on temperature. Once they reach the free swimming stage, they will venture out and at the first sign of danger zip back to safety. The fry begin to leave the confines of the male's mouth when they get to big for him to house. Broods are relatively small from 20 to 30 being about average. At this stage they will be miniature adult replicas about 1/4" long. Because of their huge mouth Banghais are easy to feed. Newly hatched BS are eagerly taken and should be supplied in quantity several times a day, especially early morning.

At this point it is best to remove them to their own container. A 10 gallon tank is sufficient but must be prepared before hand. A word of caution... I found the fry susceptible to death simply by moving them. I had a ten gallon tank set up with their tank water, water parameters identical, and when I netted a couple and transfered them to the ten, they drifted to the bottom and several died immediately. I think they died of shock due to capture with a net even though I was careful and they were easy to catch. I was shocked. To prevent this, I tried siphoning them up with a 1/2" hose. I'd get one or two in the hose and stop the siphoning with my fingers and gently release them from the hose into the ten gallon. Several still went into shock but, most recovered and were fine. After a couple of weeks I began introducing them to flake food and frozen BS. They didn't present much of a challenge in raising after the initial challenges of moving.

Good luck. Pictures would be nice.

Dick

Hey thanks guys. I have been doing some reseearch on these and found a good article from Hawaii. It suggested making a fake diadema sea urchin with plastic wires and pvc caps so the fry could hide. At the moment the fry are still in the mouth of the dad, and i see fins and eyes poking out every now and then. So far, i have not seen any leave his mouth to eat. I tried target feeding some cyclopes-ez but they ignored it.

I still have an ugly (not that the fry care) 10 gallon hex tank. What would you put in there Dick? Would powerheads suck up fish and make fry sausage; what about an air bubbler? Maybe i could plumb the hex into the main tank for heat and O2, would that be worth doing? I could toss in a couple pieces of LR and a small ball of chaeto from the sump to give them some copepods to munch on.

I was thinking about trying to move the male cardinal while the fry are still in his mouth. If i can coax him into a jar or trap of some type i could move the lot without exposing them to air (theoretically reducing stress). Do you think this would be worth a try or might it stress the male to the point of spitting out or eating his young?

Oh, i will post pics when i find a new camera. My piece of junk broke. :)

Yikes, this process must have been farther along than i had thought. The fry were released into the water last night. There are just two that i could find though.

I moved the two fry out into a 10 gallon hex filled with tank water, a very small powerhead, a heater, and a huge ball of red algae. I put some cyclopes-ez in the tank a bit ago and saw one fish darting like he was eating it. Can't be sure though. I am heading to the LFS now to get the base for the brine shrimp napulli hatchery (the one in rob's video).

I read the bangais might spawn again as early as a couple of weeks if they are fed well. I think next time i might try to gently move the male out into the hex tank. The fry are nearly impossible to get out of my display tank; i had to deconstruct several rock piles before i could get to them, probably stressed them out too much, we will see. I need to build a phytoplankton raising setup so i can start raising real food.

This is so cool.

Cool! I have been thinking about getting a pair.

cool !! LET ME KNOW when these guys are big enough to ship/ i have always wanted a pair or small school of them.

Sure thing bobby. Just a note on the school. I tried three in a very lightly populated 100 gallon and one was beaten and killed by the others.

I have heard that they are very hard to sex.

Banghaii Cardinals are impossible to sex, until they spawn. If you see them spawn you will see lots of side by side shimmering and at the point of egg release the female releases a ball of eggs and the male releases his milt. The eggs appear sticky because they are in a neat ball. The male instantly scoops the egg mass into his mouth. At this point the male will not eat again until the fry are released. That is a period of thirty days or perhaps a bit longer. If you didn't witness the spawning but, one of the fish has a swollen jawline and drooped throat area, that is the male. You will be able to see the egg mass if you can look straight onto the fish.

At this point the fish should be separated because the female will continue to eat and become gravid and ready to breed as soon the male is free of the current batch of fry. BUT, at this point, the male is not strong enough to handle 30+ days of raising another batch. He should be given at least 2 weeks of heavy feeding to re-condition him for the rigors of another spawn.

If you want Banghaii to pair, you need to begin with a group. As Astrivian pointed out, the problem with getting three is that if two pair off they will kill the third. Be prepared to move or give away the odd ball. If you buy six your likely to wind up with two pair.

These are very desirable reef fish that still command a fairly high price considering they are quit easy to breed and raise.

Dick

At this point the fish should be separated because the female will continue to eat and become gravid and ready to breed as soon the male is free of the current batch of fry. BUT, at this point, the male is not strong enough to handle 30+ days of raising another batch. He should be given at least 2 weeks of heavy feeding to re-condition him for the rigors of another spawn.


Right on Dick! I noticed my male has stopped eating again and i am worried his fish wife convinced him to take on more eggs! Poor guy.

He will likely spit these eggs out as i read they can do if the male hasn't eaten enough. That's okay, live and learn. He needs to put some fins down with his wife!

I have been feeding frozen mysis and brine with selcon and garlic extract, but i gather this is not a very well rounded diet. I have tried feeding Formula 2, but they just spit it out (the clowns like it though). What other foods would be good? I heard clams and scallops can be a nice addition and i just ordered some brine shrimp eggs and selco for enrichment.

The male is indeed holding eggs again, as of 1/21/08. I have decided to give TR a step-by-step post series on how i am raising them. Currently, the male is holding my second batch of eggs. The first batch produced 2 fry which are still alive and well after 14 days on their own. The strategies i have used thus far to raise them i will likely continue, albeit with some modifications.

Step 1.1 - Identify that the male is carrying eggs.

To recap briefly the breeding behaviors of these fish, the female releases eggs likely sometime late at night. The male then sprays the eggs with milt and then holds the egg clutch in his mouth for protection. This transfer of eggs is very quick and not often observed (I have yet to see an article where someone has witnessed the exact egg transfer process).

As you are not likely to observe the actual breeding process, look instead for the male to be holding the eggs. This is easily identified by the following signs:


Distended mouth area, like he is puffing his "cheeks" out.
The male will not eat when offered food, but the female will.
The male will hide in a shaded area.
If you can look into his mouth, you will see bright orange eggs.


Although i have not experimented with this as of yet, i would imagine it is important to have a shaded area for the male to go to. If this occurs in your display tank, as it does mine, there might be enough crevices in the rocks for him to hide. If not, a short length of 4 inch PVC pipe should do the trick (although it doesn't look as nice as live rock).

Step 1.2 - Now what?

The question now becomes: What do i do with the male? He will hold these eggs for about 15 days and then hold the live fry for another 15 days, on average. Once the fry are released they are under immediate threat of being eaten by anything that can fit them into their mouth (including their own father and mother!). If you intend on actually raising them for sale or trade, the fry should really not be left to fend for themselves in a populated display tank.

There seems to be some debate about what is easier to do at this point, and i will try both and report back. Option 1 is to move the male to another tank. Option 2: move the fry when they are released.

I tried Option 2, moving the fry, the first time and i can attest that this is not easily done. If you are not prepared or not able to move lots of rocks around your display, i suggest going with Option 1: move the male. The fry are very small (about 1/8 of an inch) and although they are easy enough to see, they find the smallest holes to hide in.

The trouble with moving the male, as i have read, is that too much stress on him can cause him to "spit." In other words, thinking he is saving his own scales, he spits the eggs or premature fry out to die. This is, of course, not what you want to happen (_1_). If you move the male, do not do so with a net. Exposure to air will likely be too stressful and may damage the eggs. Fish traps or even jars seem to work best for this.

This time around i am going to try to split the difference, so to speak, of option 1 and 2. I don't want to take the risk of stressing the male out and losing my clutch of eggs, nor do i want to destroy my rock work again to get the fry into the other tank. Since my display is long and rectangular, i can easily section off a side (about 1/4) with eggcrate and window screen. I will try to gently encourage the male to swim into a prepared corner and use the eggcrate to section him off from the rest.

In this case, a "prepared corner" means removing most of the rocks from the area, especially ones with hungry corals on them, and dousing the lights above this area with layered window screen. Just to make the male happy, i will also add a cut section of PVC for him to hid in. When the fry hatch, they will need some place to hide from the male, and for their own sense of security. I will discuss hiding places in further detail in the next post.


_1_ : As a note, i have read some studies where the keepers try to raise eggs to hatch without the male. None that i know of have had any success.

Samuel, I will follow this thread with interest.

How did you get your pair? That is, did you buy a "pair" or did you just buy 2 or more fish and end up with a pair?

Samuel, I will follow this thread with interest.

How did you get your pair? That is, did you buy a "pair" or did you just buy 2 or more fish and end up with a pair?

I actually did this in a cruel way, accidentally. I randomly bought two and then ended up with people giving me two more. Even with my tank size, two of the fish were beaten and starved to death. When the pairs mate, so i gather now, the male is completely intolerant of any other cardinal in his zone.

They didn't have to die, thinking back. You could buy four and place them all into a tank. Dominant ones will show up very quickly, with the others hiding and not eating (even if you try and target feed them). Unlike me, take out the ones getting beaten down and transfer them to a home of their own, or to another person, back to the store, etc. The pair that's left is probably a mated pair, i would think.

I have heard various rumors on how to sex these. I can identify my male and female now, even when the male is not holding eggs. He has a more squared off jawline and body while the female is more of an oval. You can give this a shot when at the LFS, but i am not sure i could accurately identify males and females in a tank. These features may only show up when the fish are older as well. For example, i have absolutely no idea what sexes the fry are.

I will try to post some pics this weekend.

I have heard that they are difficult to nearly impossible to sex until you see the male holding fry.

Update to Stage 1.2

I did indeed move the male to his own section on the side of the tank. This was not as easy as i first supposed! The catch was that the female would not leave his side; very comforting wife. So, they are both over in their corner. I doused the lights with two layers of window screen just to keep them relaxed.

The cardinals and the clowns spend several hours after this move looking at each other through the eggcrate. I think the cardinals think they are in fish-prison.

He is still holding the eggs, so the move wasn't too stressful for him i suppose. He found a spot to hide underneath a ball of red algae growing off the side of the glass. I will not clean any part of this side of the tank except the front of the display glass. I want as many copepods and isopods to grow and thrive over there to be fry food later.

This is day #9 (maybe day 10). Stay tuned to this thread! The eggs should hatch into fry around February 4.

They aren't "impossible" to sex when they are mature. It's just hard :) There are some tell tale signs. None are 100% accurate, but you have a pretty good chance at sexing if you look close enough. This is kind of important because if you buy two adults or sub adults that are male, they'll probably fight hard until one dies of injury or starvation (from cowering). Again, by looking for some tell tale traits, you have a statistically better chance of pairing the fish.

The males are literally made to carry. Through evolutionary development, their jaws are boxier and larger, made to hold the berries. Females jaw line are narrower and pointed. For those of you who own dogs, you'll know what I mean... for the most part, a male dog has a bigger, boxier head. While the females of most species are more "dainty" and pointer in the snout. No, they don't carry their young in the mouth like the Banggai, it's just an analogy :)

Males DO have a longer "pennant" appendage on their dorsal fin. This is not a very accurate way to sex, as most males of the species battle, and therefore fin damage is probable.

The fry are susceptible to "fainting" when disturbed. I've lost many during transfer to the grow out tanks. In some cases, rigorous water flow can help re-oxygenate them and they could come around. Most, however, don't wake up. Freaky eh...like those fainting goats we hear about.

If you can, you really should give your boy a break from time to time. He WILL carry another clutch as soon as possible and this could take its toll on him. As you've noted, when carrying, he will refuse feeding. I know I can't go without my Big Macs for too long. :) Try catching him, keeping him in the fuge or something after he releases again. If you can't, don't rip apart your reef to get him. It's just worth a try.

Also, I lost a LOT of clutches by moving my male when he was holding young berries. Instead, try to wait until you literally see the "whites of their eyes". Meaning, when the try are close to 100% of development. At that time you WILL see them poking out of dad's yappa and taking a look see. Again, when I moved my boy too early, he stressed and expelled the undeveloped eggs.

If you are serious about breeding, read, read, and read more. I can personally attest to the wisdom and experience of Dr. Frank Marini, who provided guidance along my journey. I had the chance to talk more with him more on the subject when he visited my home town last year. *giggle* I went out for seafood with him. He's an incredibly smart guy, and more than likeable. He's downright personable. He's also one of those "Marine Saints" who will respond to the average hobbyist, and do so in a very professional, yet "layman" manner, making it that much easier to learn.

Some of his articles can be found here: Reefs.org: Where Reefkeeping Begins on the Internet - FAQ on Banggai Cardinals (http://www.reefs.org/library/article/f_marini.html) and here: Reefs.org: Where Reefkeeping Begins on the Internet - Captive care and Breeding of the Banggai cardinal fish Pteragon kauderni (http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/f_marini_020799.html) but I would also encourage you to "google" Frank and read anything he has to say on the subject matter. Again, he is very personable and continues to assist hobbyists whenever possible. He can also be found helping folks in his breeders forum at The Marine Depot here: Marine Fish-Reproduction, Care and Husbandry - by Dr Frank Marini (http://forum.marinedepot.com/Forum12-1.aspx)Dave

Samuel,

For what it's worth, when you get more fry, you really don't need the "urchin" thingy :) If you start now, and make a 10 gallon grow out ready, using some LR rubble, and macro (I found caulerpa to be best.. fry can get trapped in the nooks and crannies of chaeto balls), you will be off to a good start. The fish fry love to hide, chase and play in the branching mess of caulerpa. A seasoned grow out will also contain mysid and pods and such that can help sustain the fry while you are slaving away at baby brine.

Shall I continue to add to your thread here? Or would you like to run with it? I've got some images and such from my breeding days.

Dave

go for it Dave! I'd love to see the images!

Samuel - great thread! I can't wait to see your pictures! (by the way, I'm in CO again next month...would love to visit...)

Okay.... Here's dad... looking like he's ready to blow lunch. Notice his gal to the left. She's got a more narrow looking, pointed jaw line.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/Cardinalholding.jpg

In my system/program, for the first few weeks, I would raise the fry in my sump; the refugium side. So, in order to keep the fry from falling into the remainder of the sump, and becoming pump mulch, I built this divider. It's egg crate with wedding veil material and clamps:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/sumpcardinalmod.jpg

This allowed me to keep them in the original system, without moving them, shocking them, or making them "faint". After a few weeks of plumping up on the wild pods, mysid, and baby brine in the fuge, I'd move them to a 10 gallon grow out.

They are very tiny when born. Look at them here, after riding the overflow, into the sump. The black object above is a float valve controlling top off in the sump:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/inthesumpcardinals.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/inthesumpcardinals3.jpg

Look at them as compared to a standard, glass thermometer :)

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/inthesumpcardinals2.jpg
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/inthesumpcardinals2.jpg%5B/IMG)

Having gained some size and experience, I trap the babies with a plastic cup (long painful task) and move them to the grow out. The grow out has been set up and running for months and contains LR rubble, macro but no sand. Helps me to keep it clean. The tank is partitioned so I can run a hang on filter, heater etc. on the other side of a pen-plex divider so the fry aren't hurt. This system is really much like an off-line macro fuge. It's teaming with buggies. Water changes (percentage thereof) are done weekly, and excessive detritus is siphoned off the bottom with small diameter rigid tubing, connected to airline.

Some babes in the grow out. Note that when/if I used Cheato, I pulled the balls apart to keep them from becoming fry traps. Personally, if I have C. serrulata or C. Prolifera, I prefer not to use Chaeto. I may put some in the heater/filter side to promote pod and mysid populations.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/babecardinals.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/babecardinals9.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/babecardinals7.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/babecardinals3.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/babecardinals1.jpg

You are going to want to grow out brine shrimp, and feed them within 24 hours. Once the shrimp go through a few molts, and become sub-adult, they have mouths, lose the yolk sac and are not very nutritious. No worries. Just feed them with phyto, paste, selcon, boiled egg yolk or something, to "Gut Pack" them before feeding the baby Banggai. You can grow them out in a simple "bottle hatchery" like I use here for the baby seahorses:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/Green.jpg

Otherwise, you want to start to provide frozen cyclopeeze, mashed frozen mysid and other prepared foods as they get larger. YOU HAVE to wean them off of the live BBS before too long, or they may own you. Introduce cyclopeeze first. They seem to relate to it as it is fed with the BBS. After you get them eating this (which is a great food for them by the by) you can introduce shaved mysid and other prepared marine foods.

Let me see if I can dig out more soonest.... Back to work.

David

Awesome details Dave! As usual...you rock!
I can't believe how tiny those little buggers are....the fins look enormous compared to their body.

Can you show an overview of your "grow out" tank?

See this, my seahorse grow out systems...

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d176/JustDavidP/10GGrow1.jpg

It's exactly the same, except on the left, where there are plastic plants and suction cups, I use rubble (size of golfballs) and macro, much like the right side.

The heater, filter etc. is all on that right side, away from tender baby flesh :) In the seahorse grow out, I split the tank almost 50/50. This keeps the seahorse fry and food in closer contact. In the Banggai grow out, I get the divider as close to the right as I can to make more room for baby fish and macro.

Dave

cool...so for circulation, you're just using an air pump? Is that enough flow also for the macros?

No... okay... let me back up :)

On the left, I use as many airline rigs (rigid tips on flex hose) as I need to keep things moving along. Otherwise, detritus will build up on/in the macro, and all heck will break loose. In a pony system, with the grow out chamber void of biological matter ('cept for the ponies of course) high flow is not really needed. Actually, the low flow helps me keep the floor clean. Nothing like trying to siphon in a swirlstorm. In the Banggai system, I used two airlines.

Also, keep in mind that on the right, I have a small cascade filter that takes water up, runs it through the filter pad, and cascades back into the tank. The divider does stop that "Flow" from going to the other side, but there is water exchange, filtration, and heating of the water in the other side.

Dave

Wow dave, thanks for all that. I will have to try some cyclopesez next; i am having a hell of a time getting my fry off live food.

Some pictures of my deal now.

This is a shot of the male and female in profile. You can see the notations Dave was making about the jawline of the male. Notice also how the females' body is more oval, while the male's is more squared off along the top and bottom.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2044/2230501245_42ddb64515.jpg?v=0

Personally, i don't find the dorsal fin method to be very accurate in terms of sexing. I have often stared at my pair trying to see a difference in their fins without any luck.

Here is a wider shot of the pair with their clown buddies. The male's behavior is typical around this time, hiding in a cave. When i feed the tank, i have seen him dart out thinking he will eat. When he gets near the food, he seems to remember he is carrying eggs and darts back into hiding. Silly fish.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2081/2230501249_0d6fedcaab.jpg?v=0

This next picture is the male holding eggs. I circled where his jaw is puffed out from holding the eggs. Look for this, it is a telltale sign he is packing.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2374/2230501237_83470f3a33.jpg?v=0

And, lastly this is the setup i made for the pair. I sectioned off a side of the tank with eggcrate so i can, hopefully, isolate the fry when they hatch out and are released. I actually intend on raising the fry in this side of the tank, at least until i can build a better set up. I have the 10 gallon hex but it is not hooked up to the main system, which makes me a slave to water changes and constant monitoring of temperature, water quality, etc. Personally, i have been slacking majorly in this and already lost one fry.

I cant really use the refugium for fry raising as it is not in a convenient spot. What i need to do is build a table i can set this stuff on!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2403/2230501239_0bc111764d.jpg?v=0

The "door" under the eggcrate (the big white thing) is a small section i cut away and then superglued back on at an angle (i.e. " \ " ), like a swinging pet door. It is probably pointless, but the theory is that it allows hermit crabs and snails to get through while keeping the fish back. Again, it is probably pointless :)

On a different note, i have a question for you Dave. How do you ween the fry off of live food and about how long does it take? I can't seem to get my fry to eat anything at all.

Are the babies really going to be confined by egg crate? I found that they pay no attention to it :) I had to wrap the crate with a mesh, small enough that they could not get through, otherwise, they come and go through the the diffuser at will.

In your case, since you are actually sectioning off some of the tank, get a Penplax divider.

http://www.swelluk.com/img/shop/original/pennplax-tankdivider-Illus.jpg

It can be cut to fit, and will not let anything but the water flow through...well...and baby brine shrimp and such. This is what I use in my growout tanks.

Dave

I continued to feed newly hatched baby brine shrimp. Then, I began to introduce thawed frozen cyclopeeze when feeding the brine shrimp. I use airlines in my tanks and it keeps everything flowing in the water column. Just by sheer chance, they start to take in the cylcopeeze. It's the same size and probably close in texture (if they even chew). Again, most of the time, these babies "hit and run" feeding while darting through the water column. They would, just by mistake, begin to take in the cyclops. Thereafter, I would reduce the amount of baby brine I put in, and increase the cyclops. They continued to feed on both. Eventually, you reduce the baby brine to just dropper and then...no more. You will know when, because you'll see them accepting the cyclops.

After they take the cyclops, you want to take frozen mysid and using a knife, shave the mysid off of the frozen block. This creates smallish shards of the food, closely matching the size of the BBS and cyclops. Mix some of this shaven food in with the cyclops..and follow the same routine above. Eventually, you will get them eating both.

As the fish mature, you can increase the size of the food particles. Just about when they are the size that you typically see in the LFS (sub adult - juvis), they should be taking smallish (maybe hikari brand) whole mysid and/or frozen, whole, enriched, adult brine. From there, I noticed that they like that "prime reef" stuff, broken into decent sizes (this stuff stanks like fish). Afterwards, they should take just about anything. Banggai's aren't very finiky.

Dave

You know...this really is an excellent time to figure out how to tank raise these lil buggers....

Banggai cardinal among additions to Red List | Practical Fishkeeping magazine (http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=1376)

Dave

Wow! Samuel...you just may be in the market for something! Keep those guys cranking...

Very cool, thanks for the tip Dave. I am going to start reprogramming my fry starting today. I have some frozen cyclopes so i will use your dual-dosing method with enriched napulii. I will have to buy some more frozen mysis for the second step.

To answer your other question, yes the bangaii fry will swim right through the eggcrate i am sure. I am going to wrap fiberglass window screen around it this weekend. The crate is mostly to keep the adults to one side.

Oh, and i dig your point about the fake urchin. Actually i am going to make a "fry trap" using some green plastic garden screen to keep their parents from eating them when they hatch (around Feb 5). After that, this couple will have to be broken up for a week or so! The poor guy needs a rest. I know how he feels :p

You know...this really is an excellent time to figure out how to tank raise these lil buggers....

Banggai cardinal among additions to Red List | Practical Fishkeeping magazine (http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=1376)

Dave

Exactly Dave. This is why i was so excited my pair started breeding. Also, i think it is only a short time until wild-caught ones are flat banned. That should cause the prices to skyrocket. I heard they used to sell for $150 in the U.S. before they became really popular. I doubt they will go that high again, since they are so easy to tank breed, but the price should go beyond $5 for the juvies.

Tropical Isle, a store in Framinham, MA, sells tank raised for at LEAST $25.00 each. Just remember, if you are really into this, and continue to breed, you NEED to get additional breeding stock. Banggai Cardinals are what we call an "endemic species". They are ONLY found in one specific location, again, in the lagoons of the Banggai Islands. They already sit behind the "curve" as far as possible gene swapping. Try to shake it up some with other lineage...k?

Dave

Oh yes, i know. Genetic diversification would probabably be the only reason i would go with a wild-caught Bangaii.

As a note, I found some information from CITES regarding the future trade of these fish. This report from 2007 (http://www.cites.org/eng/cop/14/prop/E14-P19.pdf) (PDF document), gives their current decision regarding the trade of wild-caught specimens. In summary:

The representatives from the United States proposed that the Bangaii Cardinal fish (Pterapogon kauderni) be listed under Article II, paragraph 2(a), which reads as follows:

" 2. Appendix II shall include:

(a) all species which although not necessarily now threatened with extinction may become so unless trade in specimens of such species is subject to strict regulation in order to avoid utilization incompatible with their survival; and ..."

The Government of Indonesia was consulted on this proposal, and while declining to co-sponsor, did not express opposition to submission of this proposal by the United States.

Their overview of the situation says that 700,000 to 900,000 fish are harvested for the aquarium trade every year from an total population area measuring 5,000 km^2. Fish densities in areas not allowing harvest of the cardinals, such as Bangaii island, are close to .63 individuals per square meter. Conversely, areas under pressure from harvesting have densities between .03 and .07 individuals per square meter (44% reduction).

It is proposed that wild-collection is banned and captive breeding be offered as an alternative. From the text:

Captive breeding of Pterapogon kauderni is a viable alternative to wild harvest of the species;
this fish can be reared in captivity through its entire life cycle, and numerous commercial
operations exist. In 1997, the New Jersey Academy for Aquatic Sciences began a captivebreeding program, and all aspects of the reproductive biology of this species have been
described (Vagelli, 1999). Using cage grow-out systems, facilities can raise marketable-sized
fish within 100–130 days; survival rates from the time of release of juveniles to market size
ranged from 66 to 95% (Marini, 1998; Vagelli, 2004b; Hopkins et al., 2005).

The final decision was not to ban them. Although they did propose to limit their collection from the wild. After this proposal, the U.S. withdrew its assertion to include the fish under Article II, thereby allowing its continued wild collection, albeit much more regulated than before.

Some resources given:

Hopkins, S., H Ako and C.S. Tamaru. 2005. Mannual for the production of the Banggai Cardinalfish, Pterapogon kauderni, in Hawaii. Rain Garden Ornamentals, College of Tropical Agriculture and Human resources, and University of Hawai’I Sea grant College Program. 28 pp.

Marini, F. 1998. Frequently asked questions and answers on Banggai Cardinals. Reef Org archives.
Reefs.org: Where Reefkeeping Begins on the Internet - FAQ on Banggai Cardinals (http://www.reefs.org/library/article/f_marini.html)

Marini, F. 1999. Captive care and breeding of the Banggai Cardinalfish “Pterapogon kauderni”
Reefs.org: Where Reefkeeping Begins on the Internet - Captive care and Breeding of the Banggai cardinal fish Pteragon kauderni (http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/f_marini_020799.html)

Vagelli, A. A. 2004b. Significant increase in survival of captive-bred juvenile Banggai cardinalfish,
Pterapogon kauderni, with an essential fatty acid enriched diet. J. World Aquaculture Soc.
35 (1): 61–69.

Great information/add to this thread!

Dave

Astrivian and JustDavidP,

Great thread you guys got going, Thanks to you both. I was looking for inspiration as to what fish to add to my aquaculture adventure and the Bangaii is the natural choice. Years ago when Bangaiis were quite expensive I had a breeding pair and raised several broods. At that time I sold the juvies to LFS for $20 each. Nice little money maker. I think you could still get $10 on a wholesale level. That's pretty good, having a machine that cranks out $10 bills. :wow: :rotfl:

Thanks again, guys.

Dick

Samuel - great thread! I can't wait to see your pictures! (by the way, I'm in CO again next month...would love to visit...)
Christi, just a reminder, there is a WARM spot here in FL for you, too.

Dick

ummm..that sound nice right about now! We've had major storms that past few days. I can barely walk upright when taking my dog for a walk! I'll make it out to see you at some point Dick!! :)

David and Samuel - excellent thread, with wonderful information. It's inspiring me to think about how to set up a little brood tank.....once I get my refugium, frag tank, and QT tank set up! HELP! I need another fish room! :D

I'm certainly going to get into some more. They are almost as easy to breed as guppys :) The tough part is getting them off of the BBS.

Dave

The tough part is getting them off of the BBS.

YES! Yes this is what i am struggling with too! My loan fry just got his last feeding of BBS, whether he/she knows it or not. I can't stand the constant bubbling from the BBS things.

I hear you Carmie! I need more fish rooms. Maybe i should just buy the neighbors house and turn it into a giant fish room!

I think we need to change the "B.B.S." abbreviation! Everyone probably thinks you guys are talking about feeding your babies "bare bottoms"! He he he....

I think we need to change the "B.B.S." abbreviation! Everyone probably thinks you guys are talking about feeding your babies "bare bottoms"! He he he....

Oh shoot, you're right! :up:

For this thread: BBS = baby brine shrimp or artemia napulii

:)

Oh, and when are you going to be down in CO Christie?

I see fins!

The eggs have hatched; well, actually they might have a few days ago and i missed it. I have been trying to get a shot of this to no avail, the male keeps turning around when i point the camera at him. I guess he is concerned about the way his face looks when it is full of babies.

Step 1.3

When the fry have hatched they will be held in the males mouth for about another 10-15 days. During this time they will not eat, and subsist instead on their yolk sacs.

Identifying when this happens is not easy i have noticed. When the fry first hatch, they don't have the same coloring as the adult cardinalfish; they look more like pink blobs. However, i can see them moving in his mouth.

Personally, i think this is a critical phase to take note of. When the fry hatch they do not have their yolk sac and will need food. Enriched artemia napulii (BBS :) ) is a commonly recommended food for newly hatched fry. I use encapsulated eggs from Florida Aquafarms which take about 2 days to hatch. Thus, if i want to have a food supply ready to go for the fry, i need to start the brine shrimp eggs two days before they are released by the male. At the moment, i am not overly worried about what they will have to eat, since they are in a section of the display, and should be able to find plenty of copepods and other weird stuff for a day or so. However, i will probably start raising some BBS in the next day or so, just to have some on hand. Hell, if it takes longer for the male to release the fry, so be it; i will just feed the artemia to the tank!

I see fins!

Yahoo.. just days away now!

I guess he is concerned about the way his face looks when it is full of babies.

Or, more likely, that camera lens looks like the gaping mouth of a hungry grouper :)

Dave

Step 2 - Release!

The fry are out! I counted 25 new fry about 1/8 inch (3 mm) long (body length, excluding fins). Since they hatched in the side of the tank with the male, and since the male hasn't eaten anything in about 30 days, they need a place to hide; else they will quickly become snacks. Some mention making a fake diadema urchin using a variety of junk from toothpicks to fiberglass rods. Like David, i don't have the patience for artistic urchins made of toothpicks. So, i made a tepee of sorts from green plastic garden fencing, bound together with zip ties. This is just to give them a place to go where the male can't reach.

Why not just remove the male? Well, yes do this certainly. I kicked mine out as soon as i saw fry. The problem is the fry are released at night, or perhaps in the early, early morning, and the male will have plenty of snack time before i can spot the fry at morning feeding. Even with the male gone, the hiding area should give them a sense of (false) security from me and my camera.

Imagine not being able to eat for 30 days after taking care of 25 babies. Probably be pretty hungery, wouldn't you. The fish is too. Feed him well; he will take all he can get. I saw mine grab a piece of homemade fish food far too large to swallow, but he would not let it go! It took him an hour or so, but he eventually choked it down.

Step 3 - Feeding the fry

I have read several articles by Marini and others where the fry have been raised successfully from hatching to juveniles on nothing but enriched artimia napulii. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that variety is probably good. If you can find callinoid copepods, rotifers, or mysis napulii, go for it. Personally, I only have the space and budget for artemia napulii (BBS) at the moment.

How often to feed? Beats me. Whenever i can is my schedule; at least twice per day. The advantage of having the fry in the display tank, separated from the adults by window screen and eggcrate, is that the clownfish will pick off any artemia that make it through the screen. There are even some aposymbiotic corals scattered around in the tank, and a hitchhiker cleaner clam, which are more than welcome to eat the leftovers (and hermit crabs of course). The tank is very lightly stocked with a skimmer designed for something over twice as big, so water quality shouldn't be an issue.

Weaning the damn fry from live foods to frozen foods is a serious challenge i have yet to overcome. This time, i am mixing the live BBS with frozen cyclopes just...well, because it was the only thing i could think of :)

Oh, and i do have pictures; i will post them tomorrow.

Congrats... I'm eager to see if the fry "stay put" where you want them to be.

As far as extra BBS go, yeah, clowns and some corals may take them, but they are too large for a clam. The bivalve will probably just cough them back up at you :)


Dave

Hey Samuel - tomorrow has come and gone mate!!! :D

Hey Guys--
just stumbled on this website and see what a great job your doing w/ the banggai fry thread. Astrivians blog of banggai development is pretty cool. Oh and you really don't need any other first foods, artemia nauplii enriched is more than sufficent. No need for 'pods, rots, BBS is great. Make sure you use enrichment thou, as Banggers (my terms for banggai fry) are susceptable to SFS (sudden fright symdrome).

I won't interject (unless asked) as David & Astrivian are providing great information, but i will mention that a very detailed and through article on the current situation/plight of the Banggai cardinal is in Anthony Calfos "C-The Journal" this month. The article covers all we know about the fish's ecology, conservation, w/ new husbandry info (including ex vivo production of banggai fry). I think you guys might find it interesting. If anyones interested, there are daily development photos of banggais online, and it maybe helpful in the blog, esp w/ whats going on w/ the eleutheroembryos development and describing when hatching occurs (days 11-14 temp dependent) and finally whats going on in the mouth for 10 days after hatching.


David--nice to hear things are going well w/ your banggai production, your photos look great
frank

Hey Frank! Welcome to TR! Hope you stick around!

Thanks for the article tip. I'll be checking it out!

I hate when I yap about how neat a guy is.. and he shows up :D

OF COURSE we want your inputs here Doc... please do poke ALL around Talkingreef and enjoy. We're not going to wrangle you into participating unless you want to, but as I mentioned before I KNOW you like to help out where you can. So, again, if you feel compelled to do so, please share your thoughts.

Again, when are you coming back "home"? Would love to hang out again. I do think some REAL New England fare is in order.

Good to see you sir..

David

David--thanks for the warm welcome.
This is still a great thread. I listened to a recent podcast and the host fielded a question from a caller about banggai breeding, seems more threads like this will be needed to help more folks out.


I'll be back to beantown in june for a meeting and then time w/ the folks.
We're still neighbors, so we should hook up and enjoy some local fare.
Thanks again

I'll be back to beantown in june for a meeting and then time w/ the folks. We're still neighbors, so we should hook up and enjoy some local fare.
Thanks again

Please do let me know. It'd be a blast.

This thread has been great and I look foward to reading more about your work. I was looking through cardinal species on google and was curious if any of the other cardinal species are as "easy" to breed? The orange stripe cardinal is beautiful, as is the Banggai...can they be kept in the same tank (46g bow front).

John

John,

Not all cardinals are created equal. The fish you are talking about "Apogon cyanosoma" is reef safe (as reported) and pretty docile. They are territorial, so they'd need plenty of "turf" of live rock nooks and crannies to call home. They tend to school, in the open, during the day, and hunt those caverns and crannies at night.

Although they are peaceful, they'd probably be irritated with "like fish" that would want to call their territory home. They'd either be protective of their caves and chase others away, or get skittish, hide in a corner, and suffer from their lack of real estate. They are also happier in "schools" if you have a larger tank (again, keeping territory in mind) They are small, and should be kept with other peaceful tankmates. I have had lots of problems with my cardinals becoming irritated with wrasse, basslets, and other fish that play hide and seek in THEIR rock :)

They too are mouth breeders; like their cousins the Banggai and PJ Cardinals etc.. However, unlike the Bangers, they and Pajama Cardinals do not carry the fry as long. Banggai carry for as long as it takes for the fry to take off on their own, and survive (like Frank said, 21-24 days in total). Other cardinals release after the fry develop (typically a week or so) where the fish have no choice but to go up, and live in the vast plankton layers of the upper water column.

They have been bred successful in captivity, but for some reason, are listed as medium to hard in keeping by the new aquarist. Personally, other than reading about them (I love all cardinals :) ) I know little about them and could not speculate as to why they are hard(er) to keep. In any case, since identified and marketed for more experienced keepers, you don't see them that often at the Local Fish Stores.

Again, I've read, and read, and have kept PJs, Banggai, and some wild caught twospot/flame cardinals (Apogon pseudomaculatus) -poor fish found their way via the gulf stream to Buzzards bay, New England- but am lacking in experience with others. If any of you should know more, or see misinformation *pointing at my text above* chime in and let us know.

David

great info

thanks

Photojohn--
If i may, I'll add a bit more to expound upon David's reply.

As I mentioned banggais have whats called direct developement or "eutheryoembryos" , meaning going from eggs to fry (like most freshwater fish). Most other apogons (cardinals) use a planktonic intermediate.
So why are other apogons like you mention difficult, allow me to spell out a comparision;

Banggais lay 40-70 eggs, each huge, other cardinals lay 1000s of each each 0.5mm or smaller. Banggais hatch in 11-14 days (temp dependent), and remain in the males mouth for up to 2 weeks post hatch, and release as a copy of their parent ready to eat larger food items.
Other apogons hatch between 7-12 days, and are released as free swimming planktonic larvae. The plankotnic larvae drift and feed on ultra small food items for up to 1 month (some species shorter) before they "settle". whereas banggais fry feed immediately on brine nauplii. It appears that SS or S rotifers are required for other cardinals, and during this free swimming time the fry are touchy, hence difficult. However once they settle they will feed on std L rotifers, followed by BBS nauplii. But getting to the settlement point has proven tougher, but do-able as ORA sells captive raised pyjama cardinals

So far only 4 cardinal species are known direct fry developers like banggais. All of them are found w/in close proximity to australia and only banggais make their way into the hobby. BTW the other cardinals w/ direct development are ugly and mean

Okay--- back to your regularly schedule program
frank

welcome aboard Dr. Marini !! glad to have you here at Talkingreef !! we would love to see more of you around the forums as your input would be HIGHLY appreciated. i look forward to talking with you sometime, if you have any questions about us ... feel free to ask.

Photojohn--
If i may, I'll add a bit more to expound upon David's reply.


Yeah... what he said :agree:

:master:

Dr. Marini...wow i am honored to have you on here. It is pretty cool to read your articles, which were my main source of information on Baggai, then to see you on the threads! Your input is most welcome.

It has been a while for me, been busy with the dissertation, but let me give you some updates.

First, i have lost 3 fry :(
Casualties of a first-timer i suppose. Two were washed over the overflow and were turned into filter feeder food by my return pump. I added a fiberglass window screen around that section of the overflow so no more will go over. The other loss was a fry answering the call to adventure. Our hero found the small door, i guess, on the "wall" and made an escape into the larger tank. I saw him once, then never again. There are a wide variety of various gatekeepers, dragons, demons, and other monsters in the main section of the display. My guess is the little fry hero was lost to his carnivorous parents, eaten in his sleep by the demonic nassarius snails, or simply sucked into a powerhead and churned up.

The others are doing quite well, however, which brings me to my next post:

Step 4 - Weening

At this point it is helpful to get the fry to eat something other than live foods. Personally, after four weeks of bubbling jars of brine shrimp, i want to move out of the science lab that was once my fish room! This is difficult and painful. It is an exercise of human patience v. fry DNA. They are pre-programed to look for moving prey in the water column; if it is dead and floating, thy ignore it. However, we humans have a major advantage over the fry's DNA: Pavlov.

Anyone who has taken Psychology 101 has probably heard of Pavlov. This psychologist did various studies on dogs, bells, and food (that is, if you consider "meat powder" a food) and formed the basis of what became known as behaviorism. Although defunct when trying to teach people (we don't learn quite like dogs), their research is still quite appropriate for fry weening. It also gives us an excellent strategy to take, so we are not just tossing food in the tank and hoping for the best.

There are a lot of various strategies that have been developed over the years, but for our purposes the "classical" ones work the best. First, let's clarify what exactly we are trying to do. We are trying to pair a response with a stimulus. In the case of our fry, the response is simply eating, and the stimulus is prepared food. I will use two acronyms for this. The response we are looking for is termed the conditioned response (CR). In our case, it is the fry eating the prepared food. The two tools we have to accomplish this are the live baby brine shrimp, which we will call the unconditioned stimulus (US). It is un-conditioned since the fry already know to eat it, we don't have to do anything. Then, there is the prepared food, the conditioned stimulus (CS); we must "condition" or train the fish to eat this.

It is important to note here that the fry are not capable of discriminatory logic, nor are fish for that matter. Thus, anything can become a US when food is on the line. For example, does your tank seem to know when you are about to feed it? Do the fish get all excited when you open the top? They have been conditioned to pair the US (you approaching the tank) with a CS (food). We will do the same thing for the fry here.

Method 1 - Forward conditioning

This is the most typical method used i think. In this case the CS is presented before the US. The prepared food is added before the live napuli. There is a problem with this method, however, as it applies to the fry. Since the prepared food (CS) is always presented first, the fry will likely learn that this means food is coming. This is like Pavlov's study with the dogs, bells, and meat powder. By ringing the bell first, then giving the dog food, the dog learned the bell (CS) meant food is on the way (CR). The dogs did not learn to eat the bell.

Method 2 - Simultaneous Conditioning

In this case, the CS is presented at the same time as the US, and i think this works best for our purposes. Mix the live napuli with the frozen food and give them both to the fry at the same time. Keep doing this for several weeks at least. Eventually, the fry will pair the CS to CR: i.e. they will eat the prepared food. I did this with my fry and successfully weened them off live food without losing any of them to starvation.

Tips


You can have more than one CS. It is rarely just the prepared food. Likely it is also lifting the hood, sticking your hand in the tank, and possibly the smell of garlic (if you use it). This is an advantage for us, since we can easily do the same feeding method all the time. The garlic helps too if you are using Method 2, since you will condition the fry to associate the smell of garlic with food (live food if you feed together).
Be consistent! This is critical to success. If you start messing with the routine, it will take longer for the fish to learn the process. They will essentially forget what you are doing, a process known as extinction.
Test them before making any drastic changes. After several weeks of Method 2, present only the CS (prepared food) with everything else being the same (i.e. the way you feed them) and see if they eat it. If not, stop doing this and immediately go back to simultaneous feeding, otherwise you run a serious risk of extinction.
Do not backward condition. This is presenting the CS after the US: feeding live food then prepared food. Backward conditioning doesn't work and will actually cause the fish to "unlearn" anything you have accomplished through methods 1 or 2 above.

Wow! Thanks Samlov! :D Great reading! I'll be interested to see which of your "S"s will actually work! :D

*drooling* oh...um...anyone got a snack ;)

Dave

well someone has written a study/thesis a few times.

I was taking to Christi yesterday and i thought of something i should probably add to this discussion. Currently, i am raising the fry in a sectioned off area of the DT. Now, ask yourself what would happen if you suddenly added 30 fish to your tank?

The fry are really messy. If i feed too little, some don't get anything to eat. If i feed just right, most of the food ends up on the bottom. Needless to say, this is a lot of nutrients to be adding to the tank. My hair algae and macro algae is out of control. I do not have a tang, but i think i will get one in the next few days to cut this calipura down some. Even the hermits and nassarius snails can barely keep up with all the food dropping to the bottom of the fry side of the tank.

I think next time i will do this in a system not connected to my main, or only after serious skimming.

By the way Samuel, it was great to meet you and Adam yesterday! Had a great time....and it's great to finally have some faces with some of the TR members!!!

Thanks Christi! It was great to get a chance to meet you and your brother as well. You have a very warm and friendly family. Adam really surprised me actually, for as long as i have known him, he has been a very light drinker (usually only one or two beers and he is done). He plowed through four of those margaritas! He is so funny.

Those xenia and musica are doing well :) The xenia were out trying to grab stuff this morning, and the pipe organ corals had a few polyps up and waving around.

well someone has written a study/thesis a few times.

Hehe. Funny you should say that.....

i just submited the 80-page literature review for my dissertation a few days ago :)

Thanks Christi! It was great to get a chance to meet you and your brother as well. You have a very warm and friendly family. Adam really surprised me actually, for as long as i have known him, he has been a very light drinker (usually only one or two beers and he is done). He plowed through four of those margaritas! He is so funny. Yeah, he was digging those margs, huh?! :D Seriously...I had a great time with you guys...we'll have to meet up again!


Those xenia and musica are doing well :) The xenia were out trying to grab stuff this morning, and the pipe organ corals had a few polyps up and waving around.
Maybe you can convince the xenia to crowd out that hair algae of yours and then you can finally start enjoying the corals as well! They make much less of a mess than those babies of yours! :agree:

Wow 80 pages for the lit review. Good for you
Believe me if i could have gotten a PhD on banggai cardinals back in 95, then my PhD would have been a piece of cake. Alas--it wasn't so
BTW my PhD was a bit over 300 pages and we had to have at least 5 peer-reviewed/published manuscripts.
So i can really feel your pain

Yikes Dr. Marini! I don't know if i could have done 300 pages. I am shooting for 5 published articles in peer-reviewed journals when i graduate, not much progress so far. I love doing the studies, but i hate waiting for the reviewers' rejections :)

Note 1

Water quality

My test kit for nitrate spilled, but i have a hunch that my DSB and macroalgae cannot keep up with the nitrates generated by the fry and the food for the fry. Not only is the nuisance algae making a serious comeback, but i have started noticing the corals are not happy with me. The xenia and the zoanthids stay closed up throughout the day.

I will have to get a nitrate test kit, but i am willing to bet i have overwhelmed my system. I just drilled a10 gallon tank and i will set up a separate closed system for the fry this weekend. The attached picture is about what i was thinking for the setup. The sump would just be an empty salt bucket, big enough to hold a heater, return pump, and a skimmer. Water will drain from and return to the DT through the same 1.5" bulkhead. The return line will be flex tubing strung through the huge 1.5" drain pipe. I was going to add nassarius snails but I don't want any sand. I think it will be easier to clean as a BB.

I guess i don't need a skimmer in the fry tank, but i think a used one from craigslist or ebay would help keep the water quality high without so many water changes.

sounds like a good idea Samuel...too bad about the corals. Do you have a phosphate kit as well?

Just a tip...you'll need to find some way to reduce your bioload with those fry, but Zeovit has some great bacteria and a phosphate/nitrate reducer (ZeoStart2) that I'm really happy with. It might help to increase those denitrifying bacteria in your system.

What's going to stop the fry from going to the bucket?

I found that a 20 gallon, barebottom tank with LR, and macro works very well with a regular routine of water changes. Again, I'm a fan of macro in fry tanks. Gives them a sense of security, with all the hidey holes, and, in this case, a perfect habitat for pods and such. Finally, we all know how well they take up water borne nutrients etc.

Dave

Oh yea, good question Dave. I was going to build a standpipe up from the bulk head on the inside of the tank and put a screen over the drain up top. I drew the pic at work: i had to manage my time quickly :p

You're probably right Dave, the whole sump and skimmer thing is probably overkill. I will use this tank and the skimmer for my dissertation study, however, so it is all tax deductible! I just love IRS loopholes :)

On another note, i did a nitrate test (Salifert, with the low-range sensitivity) and the levels are still undetectable. The xenia, musica, and zoanthids seem to be perking up now. Maybe they were just having a bad couple of days.

You're probably right Dave, the whole sump and skimmer thing is probably overkill. I will use this tank and the skimmer for my dissertation study, however, so it is all tax deductible! I just love IRS loopholes :)


I am going back to school in May. There must be a way to work needing an aquarium into a Master's in Public Administration.

Guys, this is one kick @ss thread.

Im impressed big time!

I agree.. Sam Sam the Banggai Man is putting down some good info.

Thanks for noting that Veriann who is taking a break :) Glad to see you about bud.

Dave

how are the babies doin' by the way Samuel???

Yes, great info Sam. You da man.

Dave,

I've noticed since Veriann is "taking a break", he's posting more often. Must be strange hanging upside down in Ausse land. http://www.theculturedreef.com/whut.gif

Hey Dick! Get out there and help Sue!!! :D

:master: I'm gone.....


You know Christi, It's really nice having you on this side of the earth posting during our time zone. :love!:

Must be strange hanging upside down in Ausse land.

Could happen!! I've heard that even the bowls in the loo empty backwards down there :)

Dave

:master: I'm gone.....


You know Christi, It's really nice having you on this side of the earth posting during our time zone. :love!:

Yeah, I like seeing your guys' names on the "online users" as well! :love:

Hey V, i am glad you are down with the thread.

Some updates:

Overflow fry

I thought three fry had died earlier, in as much as they were not up at morning roll call. With all the nassarius snails and hermits in their section, I figured the dead ones were food in a matter of minutes. But no, not correct. I noticed a friggin hermit crab decided to crawl over my overflow and i reached in with a net to get him out. Guess who else was back there! That's right, 3 fry! They have been living in the overflow for at least 3 weeks now and seem to be doing just fine. Unfortunately, i am not sure how to get them out since the dumb net doesn't fit (yes, the hermit is still back there as well).

I think it might be a good time for an "overflow flush" leading to the inevitable "fry PVC waterslide." Nothing is glued back there so I will just yank out the standpipe and drain the critters into the sump. Probably quite stressful, but that's what they get for not cooperating!

DIY Fry Food

Out of boredom, i made some DIY fry food. This is the same principle as the DIY food for the larger fish, just smaller chunks. For my first batch:

Cyclopse eeze
blood worms (cut up)
Brine shrimp napulii (hatched but dead)
Arcti-pods from Reefnutrition
Daphnia (i had some sitting around)
Freeze-dried brine shrimp (shaved, to absorb the extra moisture)
garlic extract
about 1/8 tsp Selco


I had (and still have) a whole bunch of brine shrimp eggs. I hatched a bunch of napulii, filtered them out of the water, and chucked the suckers into my mixture. They are not alive now.

The freeze dried brine shrimp acts like a sponge and soaks up the excess water and "juices" from the mixture (like adding more flour to your waffle mix). I shaved it to make sure it was small enough for the fry. The fry seem to like the food, they munch it all down. Oh, i am not sure the value of the blood worms, i just had some left over. I have heard they are high in protein so i figured "what the hell." The fry seem to like them.

Nothing was blended since it was all small stuff anyway. I just cut up the blood worms with a kitchen knife (shhh...don't tell the wife) and shaved the freeze dried shrimp.

let's see some pics Samuel!!!

oh...and as far as the food goes....don't make your wife more nauseated than she already is! :D

Samuel...

They can take the trip down the overflow into the sump. Use a net there or filter sock so they don't go through skimmers and/or return pumps.

MOST of my fry emerged in the display tank and took the same ride until I got the hang of the timing of papa's release. While I can't tell you how many were lost to the pumps etc. I can tell you that none of them had piscine heart attacks, to fall to the bottom of the tank and die. :) All that were in the sump were happy and healthy.

Dave

hey Sam, i recently took a road trip with my local club to Terre Haute, In and a LFS up there. if you have ANY questions on raising these fry ... i would SERIOUSLY consider calling the owner (his name is Morgan) of that store !! they have been raising Bangaii cardinals for years and he would have NO problems talking with you on the phone for probably hours (he likes to talk), lol. check out the website ...

Inland Aquatics Homepage (http://www.inlandaquatics.com/)

let's see some pics Samuel!!!

oh...and as far as the food goes....don't make your wife more nauseated than she already is! :D

LOL! Luckily, she wasn't even home when i was slicing and cutting :)

Samuel...

They can take the trip down the overflow into the sump. Use a net there or filter sock so they don't go through skimmers and/or return pumps.

Dave

So the fry don't like needle wheels? I figured it would be like one of those saucers at the amusement parks that spin and spin to make you barf. :)

Oh, and i will post pics...i promise! My stupid camera broke, but i will be getting a new one this weekend for my dissertation study (yes that's right...tax deductible baby!)

Yes, great info Sam. You da man.

Dave,

I've noticed since Veriann is "taking a break", he's posting more often. Must be strange hanging upside down in Ausse land. http://www.theculturedreef.com/whut.gif

Your upside down gif made me laugh big time ampage.
Posting more often ? from being a "hang-on" that was here 21.5/7 to a brief visit once maybe twice in 7 days. Im not at a buddist temple in napal, im just busy without my own computer..lol , being a TR junkie is a hard habbit to kick, even if you wanted too!



Astro, look forward to your new lens capibilities bud!

As promised so many times, i finally got the new camera and can now post pictures!

Here they are!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2407/2360226576_9c2830a404.jpg?v=0

Here is a wider shot showing the whole section they are in. Please note the algae growth and that this is not a sump but my display! Thus, i do not recommend raising these in your display tank.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3135/2359400045_44c9156661.jpg?v=0

look like they are about ready to ship me a few !! hopefully i will be as lucky as you have been at raising them.

Samuel!!!!! THey're sooooooo cute!!!! They almost look psychodelic; the color is so sharp!

How many have you made it with?

p.s. how's the wife feeling?

Awesome, dude.

Hehe. They are pretty cute. I have noticed a behavioral change, however. They don't like my DIY food anymore. Picky little kids.

This is actually not new, i set this up a few months ago, but i have been soooooo damn busy.

Okay, enough rambling. I had to get the fry out of my display and into their own home. I was getting sick of all the hair algae growing in my display from the extra uneaten fry food. I already had a 10 gallon hex tank i didn't really like, so i practiced drilling holes in it. I bought a diamond edge drill bit for glass and drilled a 1 1/2 inch (38 mm) hole in the side of the tank. Yes! Without shattering the glass!

This is an awfully big hole, true, but this one hole acted as both the inlet and the outlet for the water. Let me demonstrate:

First, you put in the bulkhead and attach the various PVC pipes (1 1/2 inch diameter) into the bulkhead. Then you string a piece of flex tubing into the PVC:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2027/2404022961_c7f31aec74.jpg?v=0

Keep building up to your standpipe that will act as the drain for the tank, making sure you string the flexible tube through all the PVC:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2049/2404022967_3a93223fef.jpg?v=0

With me so far? I hope so :)

When you put together the standpipe, it should look something like this (notice the bit of flex tube coming out of the U bend):

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3271/2404022971_5191c55237.jpg?v=0

The bottom end of the tube goes into whatever you are using as a sump. Here i am just using an empty salt bucket. The PVC tube is the drain from the hex tank; notice how the flex tube is still inside the PVC:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2168/2404022979_b0871baf53.jpg?v=0

I threw in a heater for good, proper sump procedures :)

In this pic i have already filled the tank and sump with water, but you can see the pump in the bucket (a different bucket than before). The pump is something like a Maxijet 1200 but i am not really sure of the flow. I was using a Minijet but the head loss was too much coming up from the floor to the tank:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3201/2404022985_9d68bd3596.jpg?v=0

The water flows down through the inside of the PVC and is pushed back up into the tank by the pump through the flex tubing! All with only one drilled hole.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2384/2404022981_96d7bfd28c.jpg?v=0

Notice that i cut the flex tube to fit just inside the PVC. Remember, this will act as a siphon if the power cuts off so don't let it go too deep in your tank! I also put a screen over 1/2 of the PVC to prevent the fry from getting sucked down.

Yes, the water is circulating through the tank. The inlet water is being pushed hard enough to blast it to the bottom of the hex tank before it drains back into the sump. This is why i switched to the bigger pump from the Minijet. The Minijet's stream was too weak and i could tell it was getting sucked back into the drain before it even entered the tank with the fish. So all i was doing was recirculating the sump water! A bigger pump fixed this problem. The water has enough momentum when it comes out into the hex tank that it doesn't get sucked right back down.

I threw in some live rock for good measure, but the fry seem to like their new home!

cool idea Samuel! Man....how did you come up with that?!
When will these little guys ever grow up?! Man...I didn't realize it took them so long to read adult size.

by the way...I can see that beer in the background there. Didn't you know that you should ALWAYS mix a good beer with reefkeeping?! :rotfl:

Brilliant!

cool idea Samuel! Man....how did you come up with that?!
When will these little guys ever grow up?! Man...I didn't realize it took them so long to read adult size.

by the way...I can see that beer in the background there. Didn't you know that you should ALWAYS mix a good beer with reefkeeping?! :rotfl:

It looks like the fry are ready for market after about 6 to 8 months. This probably means my bigger one is ready, i guess it just depends on the LFS.

Oh and of course reefkeeping requires good beer! That would be a homebrewed scotch ale in the background. Thought i would start building my fry's tolerances early :tongue2:

sweet, i can not wait to get some of these bad boys !! you know ... in the link to inland aquatics that i posted, they sell tank breed cardinals for a small fortune !! IIRC, they were around $35 each.