last weeks rant

[mysterybox]

Take a deep breath.........talking about Sundays Talkingreeflive6

The rant sounded to me as almost "anti newbie". Let's make newbies uncomfortable for asking the same question as someone else has done. Actually, let's kick the crap out of a newbie that just wasted 50 hours of his/her time last week correcting mistakes some LFS advised him or her to make that they didn't know better, and on top of it ,it cost him or her 50 bucks! What's up with that? Rob tried to make a recovery, but....................whining about someone that asks a question because something died after they were told that it was ok to just put something in their tank after a 1 hour cycle?
Granted, some people just don't listen. But........who do you listen to? Who do you know that has the correct answer? You have 100 people telling you 100 ways on how to do something. Which one is right? How do you know who to trust? In addition, the reason that some people don't listen, is that they cannot comprehend the entirety of Reefkeeping. What stability means to them is different to you. Newbies really should be "trained" & licensed to care for stony corals to insure their success. No....I'm not saying that for real, just trying to make a point....just look around at other professions, hobbies, animal caretakers, and you'll see only very, very specialized people can care(or should) for Alpacas, lynxes, servals, monkeys, etc. Now of course, some animals are dangerous, but the specialized care is a huge factor in reefkeeping & other exotic animails. You can learn a lot from a book, web sites, etc., but you cannot learn "how to ride the bike", without doing it. A dog is mostly, duh! They are overall, fairly easy with a little research. Most people have been around dogs some part of their life. Parrots, a little tougher, but with some knowledge there is room for error. There is almost no room for error with reefkeeping and there is 27 different things that you have to watch every day and 50 million things that could go wrong at any time.

I hope i don't come across too strong, just thought I'd say that we were all just newbies once, trying to make things work, trying to ride a bicycle from a book & skinning our knees in the process.
Was that a rant or what?
Ralph

[Rob]

mysterybox,
i do agree.. and this is why it was a RANT.. :)
as i stated .. its hard, its something i struggle with... how to get this info across... and really what it comes down to its stressing the need for research.. but people only know this after some one they trust tells them.. well the newbie has to find that person then draw that info out...

that said, thanks for your feedback...
this wek we will be talking about Tangs.. :D
make sure you join in and provide your feedback there.. :D

[lReef lKeeper]

i see where you are coming from, and it was in NO WAY meant to scorn anyone for anything. i was just preaching RESEARCH BEFORE YOU BUY !! i know that a lot of times it is a newbie mistake, BUT IMHO, impulse buys happen by people who know better, but they do it anyway. they go out and buy something because they think it is cool and unusual but have no idea what kind of care that it needs, or their wife will go out and buy them something crazy for the tank knowing nothing about it. i have seen someone go out and see a seahorse (for the first time) and buy it. they take it home to an SPS reef with 30-40x turnover and wonder why it dies. seahorses can not survive in that kind of flow. if they would have researched it ... they would have found that out. THAT is waht my "rant" was about. sorry if it rubbed you the wrong way, but that is my opinion. you would not believe the posts that i answer about angels in reefs too. they buy them because they are awsome looking fish, but wonder where their polyps are disappearing to.

[mysterybox]

bobby, it wasn't a personal attack. Your point on impulse buying is right on target. However, it seemed to me (maybe incorrectly) that newbies were putting things in their tank & asking you why it died. On that point alone, how can we (actually you) get through in a manner that relates to 18, 20, 40 year olds to understand the complex nature of reefkeeping? How can you train LFS to teach their customers? If I am at the LFS talking with someone that "seems to me" to know what they are doing, that in person "salesperson" is going to have way more effect than you online.....well, most likely anyway. There has to be a "cultural" change in this hobby to teach some basics to get people started ONE WAY (ok, maybe 2). How can we expect anything, when it takes a year just to figure out whose advise was right in the first place? Ok, maybe you had friends in the hobby, so you didn't go through it, but i didn't (I'm not bitter....just explaining k?), so who do I trust? How can you come up with 1 great way to start the first year as a FOWLR? Future soft coral? future SPS? Can't we simplify this complicated hobby for the newbie?

[mysterybox]

oh, and by the way, the chances of me being on your show with a yellow tang in a 55 is like...........humm..............another piece of great advice my LFS gave me. What to do now? I guess I should have fed it to my four foot worm!

[mysterybox]

Oh by the way Bobby, you didn't rub me the wrong way! IN GENERAL TO ALL FORUMS: I just would like more "open arms" & understanding to newbies and a possible "project newbie" to be set up to get them started. They get so turned around and so many quit the hobby. Those newbie threads are ok, but most advanced advice goes to advanced threads! I would have quit the hobby if it wasn't for Randy at Reef Central. That was over a year and a half ago, but he prodded, poked, & cared, & most importantly, followed up. Carmie did the same for me, but it wasn't at the same critical level. But what if I didn't get Randy? I would be out of this hobby. That's crazy!

[lReef lKeeper]

i agree with you 100%. i wish there was such a way to tell someone how to start a tank in 1 way, but unfortunately there is not. most LFS's are in it for the money, so they give the advice that they think the buyer wants to hear ... leading to them coming in and spending more money. unfortunately, there is nothing that i can do about that part of the hobby ... short of opening my own store (not gonna happen anytime soon). i think that the issues that are brought up here would be best handled by local area clubs, in education, and advertising in LFS's. to do this you need to have a good relationship with the stores. around here there are a couple in good standing with my club ... the others have the this is a business outlook (which i can somewhat understand) but they also think that clubs suck because we trade amongst ourselves and dont buy all of the stuff they have (but if you think about that we trade frags of their corals with each other, but we also ALL have to buy from the same stores unless we buy online).

i would absolutely LOVE to help out every newbie that comes into this hobby with their tank, but unfortunately they find this site after the mistakes are made, due to bad LFS advice (again and as you stated above). i think that you "project newbie" would be an awesome idea to get off of the ground. maybe some kind of general article put together from the thousands of post that we have all done here and elsewhere. i would have to get a lot of permissions to use posts and articles, but it might be doable. this could end up more like a book than an article, but we can surely see where it takes us. in closing though, it is going to have to start with the LFS's telling people to research before they buy or there will always be a problem on this subject.

BTW ... thanks for the feedback !! there are certainly no hard feelings here.

[mysterybox]

Well, thanks for listening, let's all be "sensitive" to newbies apprehension! But I'm sure it's probably an idealist view in what I am talking about.............humm.............there has to be a better way for them! They are the future! humm.................what about the best of the best rotating one web site for newbies.............too many ego's? humm....too many different ways? humm.............let's give that idea some thought, but is has to be real......live..........no memorex? no books. a human.........just thinking "out loud"

[CarmieJo]

Yeah, unfortunately bad advice abounds. Face it, most of us get at least our initial advice for this hobby at the LFS. As we all know there are good LFS and there are not so good LFS and your success may depend on which one you walked into. I also think that some of the same thing holds true for forums. I would never take advice from someone you don't know as the sole source of advice. You know that there are guys out there who will tell you that you never need to do a water change. Or that you can put an anemone in a tank that had barely cycled.

The bad thing about LFS is that people think that they should know what they are talking about. I believe that many of them do know their stuff. But there are ones that don't. There there are the big box pet stores. If you are lucky you will get someone who actually knows a little. Of course that kid might be off and you will get the one who doesn't know Purina 1 from Formula 1!

[mysterybox]

ok, we all agree! This hobby has a big problem. A very big problem..........can we make it better? Can there be a place to go that 90% of the lfs or online forums say, check out this site, or this. or that? What would that take?

[CarmieJo]

I don't consider myself a nay sayer but I don't think that you will necessarily get there with a forum. Too many of the LFS would not do so because they can't control the info. Several of the LFS here are carrying the Reef Hobbyist magazine which is free and that could be a venue.

[V]

mystery if your going to gripe, thats how you do it tastefully..lol:cool:

The newbie issues is always going to be a factor guys. Your not far off the grading factor though bud. At the very least any newbie should be restricted to keeping Fish Only for a year at least, its honestly the best way to bite off more than you can chew without coming a gutza! um, maybe to much ozzie speak ... loosely translated,

"an environment capable & with a greater margin for error"

LFS will be LFS, external financial demands and an infinite but paradoxically restrictive workforce will never give consistent results.

Personally Ive given up on the individual movements as a whole & turned the attention towards the greater movement.
The future for this hobby (V's Tip) will be out of the reach for blow-in weekenders.

With the oceans stocks dieing or extracted fruitlessly by humanities colder side, eventually its going to drive prices sky high, & cultivations of existing captive species will mainly be in the control of the committed.
Now the majority of these committed wont just hand over a couple frags to anyone without having an understanding of their skill level, & as such the guidance factor hits the ground running prompted by those whom read & write in these very pages as we speak.

please someone throw in the Quote ..
" the world is what we make of it ",
& i'll pitch back the idea that humans by creation are the unbalancing equation in this atomic relationship. natural selection indeed, We're just the ones that counted the chickens before the eggs if you catch my drift. The true natural selection hasn't happened yet. Muhahahahahttp://www.alexander-oberg.de/smileys/Gottspielen%21%21.gif

hey im saved here, cause its just a "R.A.N.T" right?? lol

[rroselavy]

Granted, some people just don't listen. But........who do you listen to? Who do you know that has the correct answer? You have 100 people telling you 100 ways on how to do something. Which one is right? How do you know who to trust?

Here are my sources:

1) Determine the trusted experts (speakers/authors) in the field and read (or listen) to what they have to write (or say).

2) Find a successful mature tank and try to learn as much as I can about the husbandry behind it.

3) Accrue a base of knowledge by determining the overwhelmingly common experiences of experienced hobbyists.

4) Measure any advice from an LFS with the more reliable information of aforementioned sources. Discard whatever seems unsubstantiated or biased.


You can learn a lot from a book, web sites, etc., but you cannot learn "how to ride the bike", without doing it.

Agreed. It is only when the newcomer plunges into the murky waters that they put many pieces together. Things that they could not visualize or even believe become evident, and things just start to make sense. Careful observation, testing, and the practice of tank maintenance propel understanding and confidence. In time, the challenges shift from generic to more specialized areas of care.

Admittedly, I have tended to be paralyzed by lack of confidence. I feel as if I have the know-how and proper tools before embarking. For example, my first tank was FOWLR because I was not confident enough to maintain corals. I assumed that water parameters had to be perfect for corals, but did not realize that the corals may actually help process some of the detritus that causes sub-optimal water quality. Without this trepidation I may have learned even more than I have (sink or swim) over the past 20 months.


There is almost no room for error with reef-keeping and there is 27 different things that you have to watch every day and 50 million things that could go wrong at any time.

As Newton once wrote, "Pigmaei gigantum humeris impositi plusquam ipsi gigantes vident." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants) Same thing applies here. We accrue fundamental knowledge and apply this body of knowledge to our own endeavors. We do not have to start from scratch, and hopefully that means that we reduce the 50 million things that could go wrong down to a few thousand. :)

The most important fundamental that I hope to put into practice is Tullock's (http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Reef-Aquariums-Simplified-Approaches/dp/1890087017/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1198105991&sr=8-1) (echoed by Borneman (http://www.amazon.com/Aquarium-Corals-Selection-Husbandry-Natural/dp/1890087475/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1198106030&sr=8-9) ) suggestion that we need "less technology and more biology" when caring for our tanks. This coincides with my more intuitive (yet practical) desire to keep things as simple as possible. I do not know if Ockham's Razor is necessarily the appropriate approach when attempting to contain a diverse biotope in a few cubic meters, but at least it may be useful for scraping algae. :p

I have done a fair bit of obsessive research since I started into SW 20 months ago. In fact, I often have to endure the rolling eyes when my spouse or someone else asks what I am reading or studying. It has gotten so bad that I avert my eyes and sheepishly mumble out the words... ""Uh, nothing...just some reef geek stuff.."." My wife, of course, is left to endure my geeky obsession...

Newbies (like me) must be embraced. :)

[CarmieJo]

Really good post Scott!

[Astrivian]

Here are my sources:
Agreed. It is only when the newcomer plunges into the murky waters that they put many pieces together. Things that they could not visualize or even believe become evident, and things just start to make sense. Careful observation, testing, and the practice of tank maintenance propel understanding and confidence. In time, the challenges shift from generic to more specialized areas of care.


I started in this hobby about two years ago, and only seriously a year ago. I second this statement here. The first year i tried a FOWLER with advice from p---co and killed every damsel in my tank. They actually told me it was okay to just add salt to the tank if the salinity was too low! After that failure i started researching. I bought a few books, then later found this site which helped more than the books. However, experience has still been the best, and most honest, teacher.

Even after taking copious notes from the podcasts, i still mess up and kill the occasional fish (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/tangs/4701-second-yellow-tang-death-two-weeks.html). With only two colonies of zooanthids, i can't say much towards my coral homicide rate as of yet :D I am sure i will wipe out a few colonies before i get the hang of it.

In the phytoplankton podcast, the guest made a pithy point about this: after a while reefkeeping becomes intuitive. Same thing about the bike, gathering all the knowledge you can on how a bike works might help you learn to ride it faster, but ultimatly you have to get on and do it, knowing you will fall of many times still. As such, i agree with mystrybox's post for the most part. Sorting through the piles of information (mostly in the form of threads) is a hobby itself. And, lets be honest here reefkeepers, we have enough arguments among ourselves to send most noobs screaming back toward the goldfish bowl (viz. sand beds, skimming, feeding, husbandry, proper Ca levels, etc.)

There are a lot of resources out there, but the problem is they are out there and unorganized. Thus, i agree there should be a centralized set of guidelines to help guide noobies through; frequently called "best practices" in education (a phrase which i don't like though, :) ). The idea is to strip out the debate part, which only confuses newcommers, and give them the basics of what they need to know as cleanly and clearly as possible. No statements like "You should buy a skimmer, unless you you will lightly stock your tank and feed lightly, and you might not need to run it 24/7" This can be simplified to: "Buy a skimmer."

This could be a useful TR project and i think it would not only help newcommers but would bring many more hits to TR! We could even throw in a quiz on various subjects so people can check their knowledge (say 15 questions on key facts).

[rroselavy]

There are a lot of resources out there, but the problem is they are out there and unorganized. Thus, i agree there should be a centralized set of guidelines to help guide ies through; frequently called "best practices" in education (a phrase which i don't like though, ). The idea is to strip out the debate part, which only confuses newcommers, and give them the basics of what they need to know as cleanly and clearly as possible. No statements like "You should buy a skimmer, unless you you will lightly stock your tank and feed lightly, and you might not need to run it 24/7" This can be simplified to: "Buy a skimmer."


While the "guideline" and/or "rule of thumb" approach clears a path through a portion of the fog, the newcomer will be left in the middle of the fog when they some rules do not provide the newcomer an understanding of the merit of a practice or approach to reefkeeping.

To use your example, while a new reef keeper can be told to simply "Buy a skimmer.", we certainly do not want them to waste money on a skimmer that underperforms, is poorly constructed or requires too much fiddling. We also want them to deploy a skimmer that is large enough for their tank, and one that is suitable (ie.. In-Sump, HOB) to their setup.

At the very least, we need to warn them that there is no such thing as a decent $30 skimmer. :)

[Astrivian]

At the very least, we need to warn them that there is no such thing as a decent $30 skimmer. :)

Hehe, that's true. I almost suckered myself into buying one for about that much too.

[mokeyz]

I hope that you will take this as constructive as that is the spirit in which I mean it.

The rant WAS condescending - actually, much of what Bobby says on the Podcast has an arrogant tone, not so for Rob and Karmy.

I will not listen to Talking Reef anymore for a few reasons. First, none of you who do the Podcast are experts in reefkeeping or marine aquarium husbandry. Much of the "information" you impart is not correct.

Rob, your podcasts were much better before you started doing the "live" shows. At least you researched a topic, talked about it, did demos if you did a video, etc..

Stick to that format and I'll listen again...

I have 30 years of SW aquarium keeping, I had my own maintenance business and also worked at an LFS, volunteered at the NY Aquarium and taught many people about reefkeeping. And even after all of my experience, research, trial and error, I am no expert.

If people want to ask advice they should post questions to the "real" experts on for eg. the Marine Depot forums, Reefs.org, Reefcentral, Reef Frontiers, WetWebMedia etc.. There you have the incredible opportunity to get the advice of the likes of Anthony Calfo, Eric Borenman, Dr. Ron Shimek, Randy Holmes Farley, and a host of others. Even at those sites you will get bad advice from the regular folk but the true experts will pipe in and set you straight.

Obviously this is a very complicated hobby and as has been stated here it requires much research, trial and error, reading, joining a local club if you can and more and more research and experience.

Regards,
Marlene

[lReef lKeeper]

i am sorry that feel this way !!

the way that I speak in the "rant" topic is stressing the word "I" or "me", because it works for ME, and is MY experience. i am probably the LEAST arrogant person that you could ever meet. personally, i think that your post here is also arrogant. the people here know that that is just how i talk (i AM from Kentucky). why dont you join us and set us straight on the "incorrect information" that we are giving ?? the information we give has worked for us and is still working for us in many cases. if it working for us makes it incorrect then i need to leave the hobby.

what is an "expert" ?? why does an "expert" have to do podcasts ?? i know 2 or the 4 (and a couple more) people that you listed as "experts" in the hobby, and quite frankly ... they would disagree with the "expert" label that you have givin to them. first and foremost they are hobbyists and love what they are doing with the hobby. NO ONE is an "expert" in reefkeeping, and i think that they would ALL agree to that. i am actually working on getting a couple of YOUR "experts" to do a live show with us. hmmmm

you are one of the very few, of thousands, that do not like the live shows. they give other reefers the chance to get answers to questions that they have, from OTHER REEFERS that have more experience in the hobby.

[R. Deschain]

I will not listen to Talkingreef anymore for a few reasons. First, none of you who do the Podcast are experts in reefkeeping or marine aquarium husbandry. Much of the "information" you impart is not correct.


I normally steer clear of this sort of thing, but this really got to me.

Obviously we don't have a whole community of aquarists with failing tanks because of all the bad advice and information we've received. Nobody and no website/podcast is perfect. You should be skeptical of all the info you come across.

It's not okay to bash those that are enthusiastically, and at their own expense trying to help.

To quote one of my hero's:

"The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the supression of ideas."
-- Carl Sagan, The Demon Haunted World, p. 429

[rroselavy]

I hope that you will take this as constructive as that is the spirit in which I mean it.

The rant WAS condescending - actually, much of what Bobby says on the Podcast has an arrogant tone, not so for Rob and Karmy.

I will not listen to Talkingreef anymore for a few reasons. First, none of you who do the Podcast are experts in reefkeeping or marine aquarium husbandry. Much of the "information" you impart is not correct.

I think it is fair to say (or write) that you will no longer listen to the show because you do not value the opinions and/or experiences of the hosts, and that you perceive a tone of arrogance in what Bobby has to say. However, your post may be perceived as inflamatory, despite your opening statement that attempts to disclaim what you post seems to be. I do not think you are necessarily "trolling", but your post could have been worded more politely. The TR staff contribute their free time to nurture a community in the spirit of learning about a hobby. This is largely altruistic endeavor. Although it should not be impervious to criticism, the criticism should be constructive (suggesting solutions as opposed to slamming deficiencies).



Rob, your podcasts were much better before you started doing the "live" shows. At least you researched a topic, talked about it, did demos if you did a video, etc..


Although I agree that the information the Rob presents in his researched podcasts is extremely well-formed, I also appreciate the "TR Live" shows for adding a sense of personality to the TR community. The hosts and audience give TR a cumulative "voice" that can only strengthen the supportive culture. Its holiday time, so that's my "warm & fuzzy"... :)

My only criticism is that there has been barely any Topic and/or Interview podasts as of late. I really enjoyed them, but totally understand if Rob (or others willing to step in) do not have enough time for those. All told, I would really enjoy listening to more of a balance between topic/interview podcasts and the live show.

For example, one live show a month with the TR Live crew and a Guest Host (great idea Bobby!), and one RC interview show per month. If Rob has any remaining time, there could be a prepared topic show here and there. Just an idea...



If people want to ask advice they should post questions to the "real" experts on for eg. the Marine Depot forums, Reefs.org, Reefcentral, Reef Frontiers, WetWebMedia etc..

We are all very fortunate to have these people who dedicate their time to these venues, TR and TR Live included.

-Scott

[rroselavy]

To quote one of my hero's:

"The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the supression of ideas."
-- Carl Sagan, The Demon Haunted World, p. 429

Fantastic quote. I should check out that book...

[mysterybox]

I hope that you will take this as constructive as that is the spirit in which I mean it.

<sounds good so far!>


The rant WAS condescending - actually, much of what Bobby says on the Podcast has an arrogant tone, not so for Rob and Karmy.

<One sentence from the rant "sounded" consescending, agreed with that part, however, he already explained & apologized! Either forgive or don't..........however, when you state that Bobby has an arrogant tone; are you sure you are listening to the same podcasts as everyone else?>



I will not listen to Talkingreef anymore for a few reasons. First, none of you who do the Podcast are experts in reefkeeping or marine aquarium husbandry. Much of the "information" you impart is not correct.

<obviously, you hate it so much, great idea! Don't listen. That's why you have a "knob"!

Rob, your podcasts were much better before you started doing the "live" shows. At least you researched a topic, talked about it, did demos if you did a video, etc..

<I like the live version better, but to each his own!>


Stick to that format and I'll listen again...

<please do not stick to that other format! And then you'll have him back listening again!>

I have 30 years of SW aquarium keeping, I had my own maintenance business and also worked at an LFS, volunteered at the NY Aquarium and taught many people about reefkeeping. And even after all of my experience, research, trial and error, I am no expert.

<if I did something for 30 years, I'd hope to be an expert, but that's just me!>

If people want to ask advice they should post questions to the "real" experts on for eg. the Marine Depot forums, Reefs.org, Reefcentral, Reef Frontiers, WetWebMedia etc.. There you have the incredible opportunity to get the advice of the likes of Anthony Calfo, Eric Borenman, Dr. Ron Shimek, Randy Holmes Farley, and a host of others. Even at those sites you will get bad advice from the regular folk but the true experts will pipe in and set you straight.

<so only YOU decide who can talk or not? I hear Putin is looking for people like you!>

Obviously this is a very complicated hobby and as has been stated here it requires much research, trial and error, reading, joining a local club if you can and more and more research and experience.

<agreed>

Regards,
Marlene

[rroselavy]

I sense that mokeyz may be a hit-and-run poster, so further effort paid toward resolving this matter may be fruitless.

[lReef lKeeper]

with that being the first post but him/her ... i would agree.

[poppin_fresh]

I think what SOME people forget is that TR live is just another method (among many methods) for hobbyist's to share information. It is simply another way for people interact and learn from others in a totally new format. I seriously doubt that Rob ever intended it to be the bible on marine aquarium keeping.

"First, none of you who do the Podcast are experts in reefkeeping or marine aquarium husbandry. Much of the "information" you impart is not correct."- Marlene

I take exception to this comment. TRL is about hobbyist's helping hobbyists, none of us claimed to be experts... only hobbyists. I think the combined experience the crew has more than qualifies it to attempt to help people who may not have as much time into the hobby.Unfortunately, there are not nearly enough "experts" and the ones that are, certainly dont have the time to answer the same basic questions a million times. That is where we intermediate and advanced hobbyists can share our experiences and help out.

If you really have 30 years in the biz, you should think about joining in on TRL. By stating the information is bad, but not stepping up, how are YOU helping anyone? I dont have a problem being told I'm wrong, but at least tell me why. I personally would love to get ideas from someone with that much time and experience.

[CarmieJo]

There is also the fact that often there is not a single right answer. I can tell you that if you want to eliminate ich from your reef you need to let the tank lie fallow for 6 weeks. Now, the length of time it takes to go through the different stages of the parasite's life are variable. So, if it goes through all the stages at the fastest rate you will have no viable parasites in 2 weeks. Your fish got ich, you put them in a hospital tank, treated them for 2 weeks and returned them to the DT. It turns out that you were lucky and the parasite had also exhausted itself in your tank and your fish don't get ich again. Now you tell everyone that I am wrong, you don't have to let your tank lie fallow for 6 weeks, it is only 2 weeks. Who is giving bad advice, me with the worst case scenario or you with the best? I think this answer is pretty much a no brainer but there are lots of instances where it is not such an easy decision.

[mokeyz]

My apologies to all - I should have been more tactful, for sure!!

First, I know that doing this Podcast is a labor of love - I am a tech person (professionally and personally) and I have a decent idea of how much goes into putting it together, coordinating the show, sound levels, the equipment you had to buy that you probably didn't realize you had to buy when you started out and God knows the editing!

I went back and listened to the last 2 "live" shows and I know that you guys work really hard and are very dedicated. Please chalk up my original post as an anomaly and keep up the good work. I wish you good luck and a very happy holiday and I really am sorry for any hurt feelings I have caused.