My acros are not growing that much, and when phosphates exceed higher than 0.024 & nitrates are higher than .5, the tips of my acros recede, grow algae, and then they will die unless I correct the nutrient situation. I have a "makeshift" fuge in my sump with live rock, sand, & caulpera, & I have a CPR fuge (small) with Chaeto in it. Both algae's do not grow very fast. I have some diatoms & cyno in my tank. What do you think? Here's my tank.

web page with pics:

Ralph's main.html (http://webpages.charter.net/mysterybox/)


Fish: Yellow Tang, Royal Gramma, 2 False Pecular Clownfish, 2 Blue-Green Chromis, 2 Dragonface Pipefish, Talbot's Demoiselle

Stony Coral: Rose Millepora, Green Millepora, Blue Tortuosa, 2 Tenuis, blue bottlebrush, Montipora Capricornis, Orange Digitata, Montipora Purple Digitata, Turbinaria Peltata

Other Inverts: Crocea Blue, Crocea Green, Peppermint Shrimp, 1 Emerald Crab, a few Scarlet & Blue Leg Hermit Crabs, Astrea, Cerith, Top Crown, Zebra Turbo, Nerite & Nassarius Snails, Blue Tuxedo Urchin, Black Brittle Star, Various Bristle Worms, Feather Dusters, Euniclid Worms, Pods

Equipment: 55 gallon drilled 48" tank, 30 gallon sump w/ refugium (race caulpera), additional CPR refugium Chaeto & Xenia, ASM G-2 skimmer (mod pump), 2 150 watt AB 13K metal halides w led, 2 phosban reactors 1 phosar 1 carbon, APC 950 backup battery, 3,000 watt generator, Aqua medic doser for 2 little fishes 2-part or B-ionic, Cooling: sump fan, 2 Tunze Turbo Streams 7095 controller 3,360 gallons per hour


Parameters: Alk: 11.2/4.00, Calcium: 450, Ammonia 0, nitrites: 0, Nitrates: 0.470, Phosphates: <.024 (merk), Silica: 1.9, PH: 8.2, Salinity: 35 or 1.026 , Temp: 80F (moving to 82F due to Eric Borneman’s advice and a few other credible sources. Strontium: 9.02, Magnesium: 1300.

My tank is shallow, so I went with 2x150 which Eric Borneman, Mike Paletta, Sanjay, & Fenner all said would be plenty. My bulbs are AB, so they should last at least a year. My flow is awesome. Alk & calc is great & steady. Mag is steady. What could it be? Too many fish? Nutrients? I am confused, Thanks!
Ralph

I think the nutrients are the issue. The question is where they are coming from?

what kind of lighting do you have on the refugium ?? macro algae needs light to thrive and reduce nutrients in the tank.

BTW ... your tank is way to small for a yellow tang. these fish cover miles of reefs in the wild and NEED a lot of swimming room.

I think the nutrients are the issue. The question is where they are coming from?

I feed my fish 3 small cubes of hikari brine shrimp soaked in Selcon with 1 cube of spiruella (so) brine daily

3x's a week I also feed either frozen or dehydrated cyclopeeze

2 to 3's a week I feed my corals oyster eggs

I feed my very happy & very, very, very healthy Tang Nori soaked inSelcon 2to3's a day.

That is it. Food is gone in 30 seconds to 1 minute. Light for cpr five is flurescent that comes with unit other five is like a 22 watt 56k compact flouredcent

Do you rinse the brine?

where are the acros placed in the tank ?? with only 150w halides at 13k (IIRC, the par on the bulbs is very low), i would recomend placing any light demanding coral up high in the tank. i would not suggest less than 175w, but would recommend 250w. a buddy of mine runs 2 250w 10k's on his 75g, and it is only a few inches wider than a 55g.
BTW ... the tank is still to small for the tang. no matter how happy and healthy it seems.

Yellow Tang (Zebrasoma flavescens) (http://www.saltwaterfish.com/site_11_03/product_info.php?products_id=287&parent_category=4&category_search=61&root_parent_id=4)

this says 75g, but IMO, that is still to small. i say at least a 6' tank.

Do you rinse the brine?

I barely rinse the brine, so I don't wash off the vitamins & selcon) & Hikari does not have a lot of excess crap(that is visible to me). I portion up a weeks worth of food in individual miniature Tupperware containers while they are frozen at 4 per container. I place 2 drops of selcon and place them all back in the freezer except for one, which is placed in the fridge to defrost overnight. When I'm about to feed, I empty the defrosted cubes in a brine shrimp net over my sink to drain. I pour a small amount of water in the container and pour that in the net to remove the rest of the shrimp that was stuck in the container. THIS IS ALL I DO TO RINSE.

However, let's start there. How about I start rinsing the brine, but since it is brine and not very nutritious, and Selcon seems to keep the fish healthy (and they will not eat any mysis, not one!), what would you suggest i do? Should I maybe defrost, rinse, than add Selcon? Add selcon just before feeding? Is that too much food? Should I stop the cyclopeeze?

[QUOTE=lReef lKeeper;63403]where are the acros placed in the tank ?? with only 150w halides at 13k (IIRC, the par on the bulbs is very low), i would recomend placing any light demanding coral up high in the tank. i would not suggest less than 175w, but would recommend 250w. a buddy of mine runs 2 250w 10k's on his 75g, and it is only a few inches wider than a 55g.
QUOTE]

I realize that my tank could support 2 x 250 MH. The research that I did with those incredible 4, suggested that I would be "better off" with 2 x 150 since my tank is very shallow. They thought that it would be too washed out with light, and that I would have a lot of heat related issues. However, at this point, that is what I have, and I know many people that have the same lighting, and they are very successful with it. I thank you very much for your comments and help!

Do you rinse the brine?


maybe should I stop soaking everything with Selcon? Maybe should I just soak the nori with Selcon for the tang?

The reason I ask about rinsing the brine is because the medium used to freeze most foods contains phosphates. I feed mysis and I soak it (and everything I feed) in vitamins and garlic. Here is what I do. I take the mysis and thaw it in a strainer. Then I rinse it with RO, let it drain a couple more minutes and then soak it with vitamins. Especially good call to enrich the brine as you are 100% correct about its nutritional value. I would hesitate to thaw, rinse, soak and refreeze as I think that would degrade the food. I don't try to thaw and rinse Cyclopeeze as I think it is so fine I would loose most of it in the rinse process. :)

thanks!
may I ask what brand of vitamins & how much? Do you think I might be overdosing with selcon & or
food?
I will immediately start rinsing as you have stated! We might have a start to something!
thank you!
ralph

Hi Ralph,

I use a couple of drops of Marine Zoe by Kent. Since I don't think that any one food, even soaked in vitamins, is sufficient nutrition for every fish or coral in your tank I feed a wide variety. Right now I am feeding Formula 1 & 2 flakes, frozen mysis, Cyclopeeze, ORA Gold granules, DT's Phyto, and Coral Frenzy. I have to make another batch of fish mush which I make with a variety of seafood, nori, and Cyclopeeze. Sometimes I feed a couple times a day and sometimes every other day.

You said that all the food is cleaned up in 30 - 60 seconds so I don't think you would be overfeeding and I don't think that 2 drops of Selcon is excessive.

I think rinsing my brine might have been a factor. I'll try for more variety and do what you do! Thanks!

keep us posted. I am interested in seeing if this keeps your phosphate from creeping up.

Thanks! I will!

Ok, I took my 9mm & shot the tang! Can we now get to my problem, please?
Thanks!

ha-ha, cheeky

keep us posted. I am interested in seeing if this keeps your phosphate from creeping up.
:up:
Dear CarmieJo,

I really appreciate the great.......scratch that.........AWESOME follow-thru that you have given me! That is very rare & special. So, I just want to say, "Thank-you!".

Ralph
:love!:

Hey CarmieJo,

two questions
1. I shut my return pump down when I feed (once a day). Is that ok?
2. I timed the feeding today, and it's actually about 3 to 4 minutes for my fish to eat every crumb! OK?

Thanks!

Hi Ralph,

Thank you for your kind words. I am glad I have been able to help.

I always turn my return pump off when I feed and leave it off for a half hour or so. I let the powerheads in the tank run so that the food mostly stays suspended. The reason I leave the return off for a half hour is so the corals can eat too. Conventional wisdom says that it should take <5 minutes for your fish to consume all the food. What I do is feed mine in little portions over 5 minutes. I just figure this way the fish actually eat more of the food and less ends up uneaten and trapped in the LR.

corals looking better already! Crazy! Also, Halmeda has just started growing crazy & Calc Algae, too! Thanks so much!
Just a head's up that it was phosphates (again!).
RECAP:
I think you figured out what I was doing to myself! Hikari frozen has very little liquid & stuff in their cubes. I would take 4 frozen cubes of Brine Shrimp (or whatever), put it in a container, drop Selcon on each cube. I would just put it back in the freezer, and I would take out 2 containers at a time and put in frig to thaw. Feeding time, I would just tale out the thawed product, and I would put it in a net to drain. NO RINSING (I wanted the vitamins to stay!) DOH!

Corals are recovering already!
Thanks!

I am glad to hear that your corals are looking better!

I tested phosphates (Merk) about an hour after feeding < 0.024. I also tested my RO water just in case =0.0

Hopefully this will resolve the tissue recession problem.

dramatic results so far! All corals will recover with the exception of 2. One millie I lost about 2 months ago, and I have a beautiful purple bottle-brush that is 50-50 right now. I think he'll make it. All others are not only starting to heal, but are starting to grow. I think changing the ROWA/PHOSAR reactor every 2 weeks has helped a lot also. However, that was the band-aid, not the fix! Thanks for your diligence! I'd give you a hug if I could!

As Carmie fixes phosphate problem plaguing Ralph's Reef for 2.5 years................just in case you missed the other thread to the same topic...................................



Dear Carmie,

I really appreciate the great.......scratch that.........AWESOME follow-thru that you have given me! That is very rare & special. So, I just want to say, "Thank-you!".

Ralph



corals looking better already! Crazy! Also, Halmeda has just started growing crazy & Calc Algae, too! Thanks so much!
Just a head's up that it was phosphates (again!).
RECAP:
I think you figured out what I was doing to myself! Hikari frozen has very little liquid & stuff in their cubes. I would take 4 frozen cubes of Brine Shrimp (or whatever), put it in a container, drop Selcon on each cube. I would just put it back in the freezer, and I would take out 2 containers at a time and put in frig to thaw. Feeding time, I would just tale out the thawed product, and I would put it in a net to drain. NO RINSING (I wanted the vitamins to stay!) DOH!


I tested phosphates (Merk) about an hour after feeding < 0.024. I also tested my RO water just in case =0.0

dramatic results so far! All corals will recover with the exception of 2. One millie I lost about 2 months ago, and I have a beautiful purple bottle-brush that is 50-50 right now. I think he'll make it. All others are not only starting to heal, but are starting to grow. I think changing the ROWA/PHOSAR reactor every 2 weeks has helped a lot also. However, that was the band-aid, not the fix! Thanks for your diligence! I'd give you a hug if I could!





Corals are recovering already!
Thanks!


let's talk some numbers on the solution (not the band-aids) that FIXED the issue
eric.....3 sites no solution
fenner...no
sprung........no
reefcentral.........no
web sites.................no
lfs...................................no
books.................................no
ARC.........................................no
randy...........................................no
boomer...........................................n o
marine depot.....................................no
tunze............................................. ...........no
ripasso........................................... ............no
prozac............................................ .................no
CARMIE!........................................... ..................YES!

Update: I am reducing Selcon to 2 to 3 drops on Nori 2x a day, and 2 to 3 drops on frozen food 1x a day. Acro's are repairing & coloring nicely, monti cap & digi's are GROWING again! The only questionable coral is my Purple Bottle-brush acro which is still 50-50. (not worsening, but not really improving either.)
Ralph

Dear Carmie,

I really appreciate the great.......scratch that.........AWESOME follow-thru that you have given me! That is very rare & special. So, I just want to say, "Thank-you!". (and) I'd give you a hug if I could!

Ralph

Ralph,

Just read this thread from the beginning, sorry I didn't see it earlier. There isn't anything I could add to Carmie's advice.

You don't need me to confirm this but, I'm going to. Carmie is one of the most awesome people you could ever have the privilege of knowing. She is a knowledgable, warm, caring, loving person. I've known her for a couple of years here on TR and had the pleasure of meeting her at MACNA XIX in Pittsburgh this past September. A group of TR members hung together and Carmie chauffeured us around. If you'd like to meet her, she will be at MACNA XX in Atlanta (I believe) next September. She gives awesome hugs, too. :love!:

Dick

Obviously, since I'm suburban Atlanta, that's one event that I will be at!

follow up:

Turbinaria Peltata, Monti cap, purple & orange digitata are kickin' butt, both acro tenuis are really doing well, 1 tort is looking good & the other is "moving foward", the green millie "frag" is good, and the rose millie "frag" is ok. The frags are what was left from the 2 colonies that went to coral heaven. This past friday, I felt so good that I put 2 Tub's purple polyp birdnests in. One is actually showing some bumps already!

Overall, I'd say excellent! Not only all have healed, but remarkable growth in 4-6 weeks time! Plus, that big, bad ass worm was adding to the biological burden of the tank, too.
Sweet!
Ralph

where are the acros placed in the tank ?? with only 150w halides at 13k (IIRC, the par on the bulbs is very low), i would recomend placing any light demanding coral up high in the tank. i would not suggest less than 175w, but would recommend 250w. a buddy of mine runs 2 250w 10k's on his 75g, and it is only a few inches wider than a 55g.


FYI:
just some feedback from careful research on why I keep 2 electronic 150 watt AB MH from
Paletta to Fenner:

In my opinion, two 250 watt metal halide lamps would be extreme overkill on a 55 gallon aquarium. The 150's will be more than enough light for most anything you would want to keep.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Pro, yeah that is my real name.



But again the dual 150 watt DE fixture will work great for a 55 gallon tank. You can see picture of my 54 gallon with a single 150 watt unit here (My 54 corner tank (http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic74609-25-1.aspx)).

HTH,
________________________________________________

Keith

"The best



For DE bulbs it is generally recommended for tanks 22” or shorter to go with 150 watt and for tanks 22-30” deep to use 250 watt bulbs. 70 watt DE bulbs can be used for tanks under 15” deep and for tanks over 30” deep 400 watt DE bulbs are usually recommended. These are all just general statements to assist in going the correct route with choosing wattage. Water clarity and quality will also play a big factor in allowing light to penetrate deeper in the tank.



We've actually had more complaints that the 250w was too strong and killed their corals versus not enough light. I would stick with the 150w fixture personally. You can't go wrong with the electronics.



MH Upgrade - 11/03/06
Dear Bob Fenner,
My 55 gallon is only 20 inches deep, would it make any difference to
upgrade from the 2x150 MH 48-inch Sunpod to the new 2x250 MH?
<<Not necessary for this tank in my opinion>>

what works for some, may not work for others. i have a 150w fixture over my 40breeder ... it is not doing what i want it to so i am switching it to a 250w . granted, it will be hung a little higher up, but IMHO, the 250's on my friends 75 were perfect for what he was keeping ... Acropora, Montipora, and some LPS.

my opinion on this is not going to change, however i am glad things are working out for you.

Hey bobby!

I am not trying to change your opinion, so don't worry, and I am not trying to "knock you down"! It was just an FYI kinda thing!
Twice now phosphates has wrecked havoc on my tank, and twice now I have overcome it! In so many other forums, many people gave me advice that the issue is with lights. If I wasn't confident enough, and persistent, then I might have upgraded for no reason and had futher issues. In your situation 150mh might not work; I believe that. However, a lot of folks have 2 x 150 watts over their 55's, so I jus want you to realize that if my alk, calc, nitrates, flow are ok, and my lights might be questionable in your opinion, it still could be something else like phosphates. That's not to say that lighting is not important, however, and I value you and your opinion. I know you "know your stuff", but that's not to say we all can't "learn something new everyday"!

i agree Ralph, i DO learn something new everyday. that is what keeps me in this crazy hobby !!

i am glad that you have the problem under control now. i was going with what i saw on my buddy's tank. that is the only experience that i have with halides on a 4' tank, and it was amazing (he upgraded to a 180 [why i said "was"] after about 6 years in the 75).