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View Full Version : im fairily new to clownfish, and i got one in trouble. please help!



boyesreef
10-22-2007, 04:26 AM
i have a fourteen gallon biocube, with about 14 or 15 lbs. of various liverock set up in it. heres my problem. i have two percula clownfish, bought about a week apart (i know thats my first mistake) and my problem is that my smaller, first bought clown is eating all of the fins and attacking the other clown. the first bought is half the size of the seond bought, and winning the territory battles. is there any way of stopping this besides getting rid of number two? the second bought fish hasnt given up hopes yet, but it looks like its been in a blender. its starting to show on the sides of the fish now also. any info is a major help. thanks.

CarmieJo
10-22-2007, 07:52 AM
Boyes, first of all :welcome: to TR.

This is somewhat normal behavior in clownfish. Have you tried rearranging the aquascape? That would redistribute the territory and let them find their own niche. Is the new fish eating?

Russel P
10-22-2007, 10:48 AM
Not to disagree with Carmie ( I think the world of her opinion), but I'd bet my paycheck you will have to move the new clown or lose it if the aggression is as bad as it sounds. If this was a even a 30 gallon aquarium moving the aquascape might cause them to settle in to opposite ends of the tank. But when you've got a territoriality issue in a tiny tank, the fish have to be separated. When a fish has it's sights set on running off another fish, moving the rocks around seldom makes a difference in a small tank. The first clownfish only wants to run the new fish off. In it's perception, the new fish won't leave! It will keep being aggressive until the newly introduced threat "leaves" which, in the aquarium, usually means death or being removed by you.

Also, it really sounds like the newer clown needs to get in a hospital tank.

CarmieJo
10-22-2007, 08:46 PM
^^^
And, I know when to be quiet. :) I did not pay attention to the tank size. Truly not much real estate to work with.

JeffDubya
10-22-2007, 09:57 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but its truly amazing how if you were to add these fish at the same time you might not have had any problems...

These fish that are so beautiful, so docile and peaceful are vicious under other circumstances.

boyesreef
10-23-2007, 07:24 AM
i removed the newer fish this morning, i moved it to the sick tank temporarily. they were both eating, but the new guy has the tail eaten down to the point that there is hardely any black left, and the transparent is gone on ALL fins. looks like ill have to trade him in. any ideas for a replacement fish? i appreciate the good advice fellas, im always willing to learn.

boyesreef
10-23-2007, 07:31 AM
also, forgot to mention, redoing the aquascape did nothing, i even added more. i have a 14 gallon due to appartment size, i envey those of you with the beautiful bigger tanks.

V
10-23-2007, 08:48 AM
hey bud, welcome.

get some pics happening if you can. your tank might be looking like a tin of sardines at this point, although benifical to have rockwork, it just sounded like alot of rockwork for a small tank. sorry to hear about your fish, did you return him after all that, or is he still in the QT?
How long have you had the main tank set-up? If its new the fish might be responding with aggression compounded by this. Although unless bonded, your asking for war to begin with i guess.

boyesreef
10-23-2007, 09:12 AM
hes still in qt. i have only the two fish in there now, but i think he may just been a victim of circumstance. bought at different times is never good from what i hear. my problem now is getting my new long tentical anenome to set foot. he keeps floating around the tank. i turned off all water movement systems, hopefully that helps.

Russel P
10-23-2007, 09:33 AM
You may have trouble returning a fish with it's fins eaten off. If it's eating and on the mend, why not trade in the smaller one?

JeffDubya
10-23-2007, 12:03 PM
Here's a question.

Are the two clowns the only livestock? If so... what about taking a piece of cut acrylic with routed baffle teeth and splitting the tank in half?

Good luck returning the injured fish, unless someone at your LFS specifically told you adding a clownfish to a tank with a previously established clown wouldn't be an issue.

boyesreef
10-24-2007, 12:37 AM
they are not the only livestock, i have i have a sally lightfoot, flame scallop, two blue leg hermit rabs, three snails, and an lta. the seperation sounds like a valid plan, but it wouldnt be a good idea with all that sea life. im going to nurse the new guy back to health, then i got guy that wants to buy him.

JeffDubya
10-24-2007, 01:37 AM
No, I concur.

Now here's a question to the forum... if boyesreef wants to have a pair of clowns, does he have to remove #1 and then buy two new ones and introduce at the same time? Or is there a way to fool the dominant clown, perhaps take him out, reorganize the rockscape and then return him AND a new clown at the same time?

boyesreef
10-24-2007, 04:11 AM
mr. dubya, i think you may be on to something!!! that almost sounds crazy enough to work. ill wait for other oppinions, and give it a try.

Russel P
10-24-2007, 10:09 AM
I think it'd be a longshot. Split them for two weeks or more, then introduce them at the same time, maybe, but that would mean keeping 3 tanks going just to try to get them pair up which is FAR from a sure thing. Not being a pessimist, just my guess. If you try to keep one in that tank then rearrange the rockwork, have a net ready, because the same thing is going to happen again.

boyesreef
10-24-2007, 10:13 AM
im sorry to report, number two has sucomed to his wounds. he passed away at around 6 o-clock this morning.
may he rest in pease

CarmieJo
10-24-2007, 07:17 PM
Bummer. I'm sorry about your fish.:(

JeffDubya
10-24-2007, 08:16 PM
Russel,

What I meant was to remove the fish, rearrange the rockwork, and then re-introduce the "mean" clown with another clown he has not previously met. If this is all about a territorial issues, perhaps just making the tank look different might reduce the possibility of another turf war. After all, how can he get territorial about something he has never seen?

JeffDubya
10-24-2007, 08:17 PM
boyesreef... just keep in mind that I am doing nothing more than THINKING OUT LOUD. I have no clue if it will work. I am going to consult my clownfish book...

boyesreef
10-26-2007, 03:20 AM
your all a lot of help, im newer to th reef tank thing. ill re arrainge everything before i put in any more fish.

CarmieJo
10-26-2007, 04:32 PM
Just remember go slow and ask questions first.

boyesreef
10-27-2007, 08:49 AM
the other one died this morning, checked the water, everything passed on the test kit. calcium is at 440 ppm, alkalinity at 10 deg. dkh, nitrates 5 ppm, phosphates .25 ppm

Amphibious
10-27-2007, 10:02 AM
they are not the only livestock, i have i have a sally lightfoot, flame scallop, two blue leg hermit rabs, three snails, and an lta. the seperation sounds like a valid plan, but it wouldnt be a good idea with all that sea life. im going to nurse the new guy back to health, then i got guy that wants to buy him.boyesreef,

I think the underlying cause of your problem is you are trying to create an overly populated reef in a miniature package. That cannot be done with long term success even by an expert much less by a beginner. Number one, you should not have an anemone in a 14 gallon tank. You could not possibly give it enough light for it's survival without cooking the water temp. In order for you to be successful with this miniature reef environment, is to realize it is miniature and therefore extremely limited in it's capability to keep in a healthy state. As responsible reefers, we all need to learn the limitations of our systems and our own abilities to care for them. As we gain knowledge and experience over time we become more successful.

My advice to you is to stop buying things you want and bring every buying decision you want to make here first for our analysis. We have all been through what you are going through but you can learn from our experience without all the headache, heartache, and expense. That's what this forum is all about. It's not just about socializing, it's about helping each other learn so we don't all make the same mistakes. We are here to help you, utilize our experience to the MAX. You will save money, learn valuable information and have a better reef experience. All that plus meeting a great bunch of friends.

Dick

JeffDubya
10-27-2007, 04:33 PM
the other one died this morning, checked the water, everything passed on the test kit. calcium is at 440 ppm, alkalinity at 10 deg. dkh, nitrates 5 ppm, phosphates .25 ppm

pH?

Nitrite?

Ammonia?

Nitrates are a touch high, especially for that size of a tank, alkalinity is a little low. If you don't know anything about the additional three parameters listed above, you don't know much about your water.

How long have you had your tank?

What kind of water are you using?

I tend to agree with Amphibious on his post, don't take it personally. Like Carmie's sig says, the only thing that happens in a reef tank quickly is a disaster. Just reading over your posts, you seem really anxious, which is completely understandable. I think we have all been there. But being anxious is INCOMPATIBLE with having any kind of reef tank.

I think you are relying too much on information from your LFS, which sounds crappy as ever.

I'll reserve additional comment until I see answers to my questions above...

Pinecone_Jeff
10-27-2007, 05:32 PM
Hey Boyesreef,
Just a general comment about anxiety and reeftanks. I was totally there with my first reef tank, which was a 6 gal nano. I didn't really know anything about reef keeping (I actaully got the tank from my son when he moved out to college) and I did everything wrong.

I found that most of my anxiety came from not knowing or understanding how reef systems worked and how everything affects everything else in a tiny closed system like a tank. So then I started reading various boards and got a ton of books and voila! My anxieties about my tank dropped by like 25%. Yep, I was still anxious!

After a few years with my 37 gal reef tank, I think my anxiety dropped down to maybe 33%. See what I'm getting at? :) It takes a lot of knowledge and experience to get to a point when you'll be confident about what you're doing in a reef tank. Even then, there's still tons to learn, new ways to do things in a tank, and new equipment to research and figure out if it's right for your tank.

Keep asking questions here at TR. I think that's the best way to boost your knowledge base. Learn from others here who have tons more experience and then in time, you'll be really experienced with a good knowledge base to help others!

In the meantime, as Amphibious said, post up what you want next in your tank and I'm sure someone here will have already tried or has that animal in their tank and can let you know if it's the right thing for your nano.

CarmieJo
10-28-2007, 12:35 AM
Boyesreef,

First, I am sorry that you lost your clowns. It is disappointing to loose fish. I too would like to see the other parameters. I do agree with the other posts that your tank is probably overstocked. It is also possible the the new clown brought some disease in with it. I don't recall reading if you QT'd it or not but QT is good standard practice.

boyesreef
10-28-2007, 10:34 AM
thanks guys, ill be the first to admit im going too fast. i do bodywork on custom cars for a living, so im used to detail, painstaking work. but seeing all your guys tanks just gets my blood rushing. im having trouble reminding myself that this is my first tank, and i jump into things. i just picked up a twenty gallon high rise tank by all-glass, a penguin bio-wheel 150 filter, and a top with a 10,000K full spectrum flourecent tube light for 20 bucks at the local salvation army. i was thinking sick tank, but im not sure. or should i make that my display, and the 14 bio into a qt? i think all i ned to make it a display is a skimmer and a power head, possibly a metal halide in the future. right now i want to leave the bio-cube as a coral/invert only tank, and my anenome is in the 20 gallon. im just starting this journy, and i appreciate you guys being there to guide me along the way. ill inform you guys all along the way on what im looking to do before i do so.

p.s. my water test kit is just a basic fifty dollar set. all it test for is calcium, alkalinity, nitrates and phosphates. i cant afford the good test kits. anybody know of anyone whom is willing to donate ANYTHING is a very very very well appreciated gift. thanks all!

Pinecone_Jeff
10-28-2007, 02:07 PM
im just starting this journy, and i appreciate you guys being there to guide me along the way. ill inform you guys all along the way on what im looking to do before i do so.We've all been there, brothuh! And we'll all be there for you now too! :)

JeffDubya
10-28-2007, 03:23 PM
my water test kit is just a basic fifty dollar set. all it test for is calcium, alkalinity, nitrates and phosphates. i cant afford the good test kits. anybody know of anyone whom is willing to donate ANYTHING is a very very very well appreciated gift. thanks all!

That is one bizarre kit.

Your basic kit should cover pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate. And you don't have to purchase expensive test kits, Aquarium Pharmecuticals (now API) sells the very kit I am describing for $35.

Now, you get what you pay for. The exensive salifert tests are much more accurate. It's the difference between regular and HD television. You can get the job done with API but as you advance into the hobby you will probably want to have a few key salifert tests. (and FWIW, I don't own an HDTV. Take that however you want.)

But you need to read and understand how to cycle your tank and what the nitrogen cycle is and how it works. You need to be able to test for its' components and track your results over time. Right now, you can't do that. Respectfully, 3 out of 4 of your tests have VERY LITTLE to do with fish health and general water quality. Sounds more like a test kit set designed for the beginning coral enthusiast.

(See podcast #2 from this site, or...)

The Nitrogen Cycle Beginner FAQ: The Nitrogen Cycle (http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html)
Ammonia Ammonia and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php)
Nitrite Nitrite and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php)

Oh, and throw away that bio-wheel filter, or give it to someone who keeps freshwater fish.

boyesreef
12-05-2007, 05:03 PM
time for an update. i added a 170 gallon per hour power head, green clown goby, two percula clowns, and a peppermint shrimp. everyones happy, and has been for about a month.you guys were very right as usual, took my time, did homework, slept on it, did more homework, counted to ten, then more homework, then made my desision. move quick and fail is true. and my flame scallop has lived longer that the three months in captivity that i read everywhere. im happy, he is beautifull.