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rosco065
09-23-2007, 08:33 AM
i have a kenya tree coral was doing great now it started to be lying on its side and not opened i wonder if it is dying my salt is 1.023 ph 8.3 it stands up and opens up for awile then goes back over any ideas thanks

Amphibious
09-23-2007, 08:39 AM
Welcome to TR. Give us a few more details.

Size of tank
Ammonia
Nitrite
Nitrate
Lighting
Filtration system employed
How long has your system been up and running
How long have you had the Kenya
How long have you been reefing

rosco065
09-23-2007, 09:04 AM
my ammonia is 0 nitrite is 0 nitritre around .05 my tank is 40 gal with pc lighting 50 50 bulbs at 120 watts had my tree for half a year my tank is one year old thats how long i have been doing this i must say it is alot of fun

doctorthompson
09-23-2007, 12:26 PM
Is it shedding mucus?
What other livestock do you have? Anything added recently?

rosco065
09-23-2007, 01:30 PM
i have no mucus i have some snails and a few red leg hermit crabs polyps with plenty of rock and some macro algae it just doesnt seem to be happy my tree was fine for a long time i added nothing new my tree would close up when a snail climbed on it but come right back

Rob
09-23-2007, 04:22 PM
has anything recently been added to the tank? have you recently started adding any new additive, or changed salt brands?
anything new at all even if you think its not related it might help.

are you feeding phyto planton or anything to the tank, or anything else that is meant for filter feeders?

rosco065
09-23-2007, 05:49 PM
i put in marine snow to feed and i also add strontium iodine calcium

doctorthompson
09-24-2007, 08:53 AM
i put in marine snow to feed and i also add strontium iodine calcium

What other types of sessile inverts do you have? (ie. corals, sponges, etc)

Also, could you post a picture of the specimen in question?

CarmieJo
09-24-2007, 09:27 PM
Hi Rosco and :welcome: to TR.

Are you testing for the things (strontium, iodine, calcium) you are dosing? If so what are the levels?

rosco065
09-25-2007, 07:07 AM
i havent been testing for my trace elements ive been adding i just did a 25% water change within 3 hrs my tree standed up now the next day he looks alive and well i didnt do anything different i wish i knew what i did or didnt do maybe it was stressed out from the hermit crabs climbing on him looking for food can somebody recommend trace elements that i should be adding for my corals and my coraline there are so many to choose from i will start testing for my trace elements now

Amphibious
09-25-2007, 08:21 AM
i havent been testing for my trace elements ive been adding i just did a 25% water change within 3 hrs my tree standed up now the next day he looks alive and well i didnt do anything different i wish i knew what i did or didnt do maybe it was stressed out from the hermit crabs climbing on him looking for food can somebody recommend trace elements that i should be adding for my corals and my coraline there are so many to choose from i will start testing for my trace elements nowWelcome to TR rosco065. I think your post above answers your question.

First, you're dosing products that you are not testing for. This is dangerous because additives can become toxic to your animals if in too high a concentration. Your not testing so, how do you know what the concentration is? Rule #1, never dose an additive you are not or can not test for. This is regardless of what the manufacturer states on the container. The manufacturer has a vested interest in selling product, profit. They have little interest in you being responsible as long as the product sells.

Second, after you did a 25% water change your tree stood up. My guess is that's because you diluted what ever chemical was bothering him. It would be akin to getting a cold drink in a hot desert.

One more note, if your hermits are climbing on your tree looking for food, you probably should see to it that some food reaches the bottom of the tank for the hermits to eat. A few sinking pellets would do the trick.

So, stop dosing everything for now. Get the following test kits asap.

Ammonia
Nitrite
Nitrate
Calcium
Alkalinity
Magnesium

Test for those element's and report your results here.

Rule #3, do not put much faith in advice you get from you LFS. They are notoriously staffed with people less knowledgeable than you. Plus they have a vested interest, too. Making money off sales.

Rule #4, always come to TR for advice before you do most anything with your reef tank. We are here to help.



Dick

CarmieJo
09-25-2007, 01:02 PM
Rosco, as I read your post I thought, the problem is an OD of something and then I read Dick's post and he explained exactly what I was thinking! One more thing, if you are doing regular water changes I believe that any good salt mix will provide all the trace elements you need. Non reef salts don't provide enough Ca and may not provide enough Mg but I don't consider these trace elements. Here is a link to the composition of natural sea water OZ REEF - Natural Sea Water Composition (http://ozreef.org/library/tables/natural_sea_water_composition.html). And, another useful link Reefreaders - Chemistry 101 (http://www.reefreaders.com/content/view/45/1/).

lReef lKeeper
09-25-2007, 06:35 PM
sounds like this has been covered !! nice posts Carmie and Dick !!

Amphibious
09-25-2007, 07:15 PM
Rosco, as I read your post I thought, the problem is an OD of something and then I read Dick's post and he explained exactly what I was thinking! One more thing, if you are doing regular water changes I believe that any good salt mix will provide all the trace elements you need. Non reef salts don't provide enough Ca and may not provide enough Mg but I don't consider these trace elements. Here is a link to the composition of natural sea water OZ REEF - Natural Sea Water Composition (http://ozreef.org/library/tables/natural_sea_water_composition.html). And, another useful link Reefreaders - Chemistry 101 (http://www.reefreaders.com/content/view/45/1/).
What is it they say about great minds, Carmie? :love!:
Thanks for the great links, by the way.

lReef lKeeper,

Thanks!



Dick

doctorthompson
09-26-2007, 12:12 PM
can somebody recommend trace elements that i should be adding for my corals and my coraline there are so many to choose from

Just to reiterate: Add whatever is getting depleted despite doing regular water changes. For most people this is just Calcium and Magnesium.

I'd like to also mention that specific concentrations aren't anywhere near as important as day-to-day consistency. For instance: 380ppm calcium is just as good as 450ppm (at least for most species kept in the reef aquarium hobby), although a higher concentration is sometimes desirable if your calcium levels are depleted quickly by an abundance of stony coral. What is important is that you minimize the amount of variance in the levels. A calcium concentration that only varies between 380ppm (right after dosing) and 360ppm (just before you dose again) is much better than swinging between 450ppm and 400ppm -- a difference of 20ppm vs 50ppm. Get a calcium test kit and test your tank daily for 3 or 4 days to figure out your daily usage, there are lots of online resources and calculators that you can use to determine how much calcium you'll need to add. Do the same for Magnesium. In a soft coral tank where your primary calcium users are snails and coraline algae you might only need to add calcium once a week and not even dose magnesium (it will be maintained sufficiently by water changes), for a tank dominated with fast growing stony corals most folks need to dose daily or use a continuous feed via a calcium reactor to keep their levels consistent. Balanced additives exist if you don't want to mess around with kalkwasser or DIY recipes.

One more thing, since you asked about coraline algae specifically. It needs 2 things: a consistent calcium level and patience. :)

Plasticreefer
10-02-2007, 10:02 PM
I have a kenya tree and ocassionaly it will just not open up for an entire day and will pop up the nest day so i think that it is pretty normal if its not long term.

doctorthompson
10-02-2007, 10:30 PM
I have a kenya tree and ocassionaly it will just not open up for an entire day and will pop up the nest day so i think that it is pretty normal if its not long term.

Another thing to note is that "kenya tree" has become a pretty generic name given to any number of corals from theNephtheidae family by wild collectors and fish stores. I know the nephtheid coral I have in my tank is definitely NOT a Capnella sp. -- the genus most commonly referred to as a "Kenya Tree Coral" -- because Capnella sp. don't have retractile polyps, mine does. Like Plasticreefer's, mine is also quite hardy and will reopen quickly even after I've had it out of the water for 30 minutes and frag off all but one of it's branches! Some other Nephtheids are non-photosynthetic and may appear hardy for a few months before suddenly croaking ("chili corals" and the like).

clownfish4me
10-02-2007, 11:46 PM
Welcome to TR rosco065. i don't have any more to offer, but i can tell you i had problems with one of the ("trees"- i agree with doc. Thompson, ) in my tank, while that was going on i had a spike in my phosphate level and i don't know if that affects it or not but may be worth looking into. of coarse i am forced to use tap water for my water changes at the moment. (i know its a bad idea, but i cant help it wright now)

lgarver
10-05-2007, 09:49 PM
I agree that it may not be a "Kenya tree" ( I think we hobbyist need to get away from these generic names). My "kenya tree" will not stop dropping branches, I have counted over 30 frags all over my tank, some have even destroyed a group of zoa's (the ones in my avatar :( ). I have only had this colony for about a year.....

doctorthompson
10-06-2007, 12:17 AM
I agree that it may not be a "Kenya tree" ( I think we hobbyist need to get away from these generic names).

I wholeheartedly agree, doubly so with cases like "kenya tree", "brain coral", and "button polyps" where the generic name has become attached to several families and genera. We will, however, all need rather expensive microscopes. :)


My "kenya tree" will not stop dropping branches, I have counted over 30 frags all over my tank, some have even destroyed a group of zoa's (the ones in my avatar :( ). I have only had this colony for about a year.....

Ouch... are they all dead? I have colonies of Zoanthus pulchellus and Z. sociatus in my tank that have produced heavy cocoons of mucus to protect themselves from other livestock and have survived inside them for quite long periods of time. One group sprung back to life after nearly 2 months of being in deadly close proximity to two large torch corals ... er ... I mean two large Euphyllia glabrescens colonies. :)

lgarver
10-07-2007, 06:35 AM
No, they are not all dead, I have several colonies of them. It took awhile for the Capnella sp (kenya) to take over that rock.

Phurst
10-07-2007, 09:34 AM
Mine drops branches like mad too. it's annoying really, how quickly it grows. I typicaly end up throwing the frags away, as everyone I know has more than they want. I'm considering getting rid of it entirely, as it's starting to encroach on some montipora I like way more than the kenya tree.

doctorthompson
10-09-2007, 04:13 AM
Mine drops branches like mad too. it's annoying really, how quickly it grows. I typicaly end up throwing the frags away, as everyone I know has more than they want.

I've never been able to just throw away coral, just can't bring myself to do it -- I even have a dedicated tank full of rubble trays for keeping any excess Xenia frags after I prune the display tank (phosphate won't stand a chance once I plumb the xenia tank into the main system after I move this month!)

Will your LFS take the branches if you let them attach to some large-ish substrate first? I used to toss Xenia and other soft coral frags into one of those plastic floating breeder containers that I kept lined with small (1"-2" dia.) live rock rubble or busted marble tile fragments before setting up the dedicated tank. They'd settle and attach quite quickly in there, protected from the chaotic flow of the tank.

Phurst
10-09-2007, 10:05 AM
I don't know, maybe I'll ask. I hate throwing them away too, but they float free and attach everywhere, it's a real PITA.

Plasticreefer
10-09-2007, 09:29 PM
Doctorthompson wat are u refering to when you say "one of those plastic floating breeder containers " ????

doctorthompson
10-10-2007, 09:58 PM
Doctorthompson wat are u refering to when you say "one of those plastic floating breeder containers " ????

A floating breeder trap (https://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage%7EPageAlias%7Emiscellaneous_fish_b reeder_hatchery_isolation_tank.html) is what I meant - they're cheap and available anywhere that sells freshwater aquarium stuff (walmart, etc...). I love these things.

For xenia I used to use a floating "2-way breeder" lined with a thin layer of 3mm-5mm aragonite or similarly sized chunks of crushed (er, sledgehammer smashed) oyster/snail/conch shells (which I found can be purchased quite cheaply in bulk from landscaping supply places, just soak everything in bleach for a couple days) for the xenia to attach to. (then I found out how fast xenia grow so the 2"x4" breeder trap was upgraded to a 37g tank a month later)

For frags and dropped branches from the various "tree" corals (Nephthea/Lemnalia/Capnella) I'd use a slightly larger one with heavier rubble, but kept it light enough that it would still float. An old maxi-jet hanger kept the floating traps from floating away from the back corner.

For Rhodactis and Protopalythoa I used 2 of the freshwater breeding nets, filled with 1" - 1.5" of 1cm-diameter rubble. The nets are a lot bigger than the breeder traps though so they got put in their own 20g tank (my QT) until all the frags had settled and secured themselves onto "glueable" sized chunks of rock.

I wish I could find my digital camera... I'm in the process of moving right now but I've still got 5 rubble trays going in a tank on the kitchen floor. I'm only keeping/moving a few of my favourite inverts, the rest are being given away and I chopped up my last Sarcophyton and my last Nephthea/Kenya/Thing into about 50 chunks 3 nights ago. They're sitting in 3 of those two-way breeder traps and 2 old Fluval 4xx media trays in a little 10g (not floating since the water is only 2cm higher than the trays).

Either I packed my camera already by accident or I've managed to misplace it in a house where every room except the kitchen and the living room is empty, and those rooms only have assorted tanks and rubbermaids! (total furniture: 3 tanks, 5 rubbermaids, 1 computer, 1 desk, 1 chair, no bed!!!)

Phurst
10-10-2007, 10:07 PM
I keep a couple of these:

http://www.houstonherp.com/KritterKeepers.jpg

in my sump full of rubble. When I need to get somthing to attach, I move one into the DT on the sandbed and toss the frags in.

doctorthompson
10-10-2007, 10:45 PM
Hah! I use an old Hagen reptile/herp travelling carrier (dubbed the "Faunarium" by the manufacturer I think) for storing unused rubble in my sump. I keep a maxijet 900 aimed at one side of the ventilated top and within a week (even if the rubble was dry cuz I left it out all night!) it's a full blown pod/mysis farm with various zooplankton shooting out the side opposite the powerhead nearly 24/7.

Phurst
10-10-2007, 11:15 PM
Yeah, they're real microfauna farms. I have mysis coming out of my wazoo!

Plasticreefer
10-10-2007, 11:29 PM
I keep a couple of these:

http://www.houstonherp.com/KritterKeepers.jpg

in my sump full of rubble. When I need to get somthing to attach, I move one into the DT on the sandbed and toss the frags in.

is this wat u use thompson? if so how do you set them up floating in the tank or do you plumb them in wiht all the others?:eek:

Phurst
10-10-2007, 11:39 PM
I think the good Dr. was referring to somthing like this:

Lee's Multi-Purpose 3-Way Breeders at PETCO (http://www.petco.com/Shop/Product.aspx?familyid=7449)

When I use the Critter Keepers, I just set them on the sand on the bottom of the tank.

Plasticreefer
10-10-2007, 11:51 PM
oh ok thank you... how and were would you put the three way breeder????

Phurst
10-11-2007, 12:01 AM
Well, they float, so they'll be on the surface. I would figure some way to tether it in place so it doesn't float around.

doctorthompson
10-11-2007, 03:35 AM
Well, they float, so they'll be on the surface. I would figure some way to tether it in place so it doesn't float around.

I used to have one superglued to a cheap walmart cleaning magnet but after only 3 days in the water the tank side of the magnet started leaking out what looked like rust or some other sort of oxidized metal so I threw it in the garbage as I bolted out the front door to buy a copper test kit to put my mind at ease.

I just use an old maxi-jet clip with the long end extending into the trap and keeping one wall pressed against the wall of the aquarium - or sink them to the bottom of a shallow grow-out tank.

clownfish4me
10-11-2007, 07:44 AM
i have used the cheap disposable food containers that you store left overs in. you can use the lid and drill holes for water flow rather easy.... i attached it in the tank by hanging it with a piece of fishing line by tying it to the legs of my lights ......

JeffDubya
10-13-2007, 02:16 AM
That is a tremendous idea.

JeffDubya
10-13-2007, 02:21 AM
of coarse i am forced to use tap water for my water changes at the moment. (i know its a bad idea, but i cant help it wright now)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!

(Quoting your reef inhabitants...)

clownfish4me
10-14-2007, 01:56 AM
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!

(Quoting your reef inhabitants...)

i know i feel there pain, and i can definitely hear them. :) i hope to afford a good ro/di unit in the next coming months.

CarmieJo
10-14-2007, 02:12 AM
Can you find a water machine at a store like Wal-mart or Whole Foods? It would be far better than tap water. You are setting yourself up for problems.

JeffDubya
10-25-2007, 03:30 PM
Hey now my kenya tree is budding too! Must be something going around... that time of year...

Pinecone_Jeff
10-25-2007, 04:09 PM
Yeah, they're real microfauna farms. I have mysis coming out of my wazoo!Man, these are some really awesome ideas for pod farms. I'm going to incorporate these when I finally get my tank designed and leave room for one or two of these, hidden behind some rocks, yet easily accessable. Certainl beats making rubble mounds that will eventually all get knocked over anyway. I love this board!!! :D

R. Deschain
01-03-2008, 11:47 PM
I'm resurrecting this thread to ask two questions:

1) Doc Thompson alluded to using xenia frags to lower phosphates (& i've also heard they lower nitrates) ... is this true?

2) Are there problems with keeping a Kenya Tree in an aquarium with a Euphyllia glabrences? Would there be any chemical warfare with these two?

Thanks

doctorthompson
01-04-2008, 02:45 AM
I'm resurrecting this thread to ask two questions:

1) Doc Thompson alluded to using xenia frags to lower phosphates (& i've also heard they lower nitrates) ... is this true?

2) Are there problems with keeping a Kenya Tree in an aquarium with a Euphyllia glabrences? Would there be any chemical warfare with these two?

Thanks


1. True for many (most?) corals to some extent, but xenia has a higher phosphate uptake rate than most other corals and it can grow fast enough to make an impact. You'd need quite the "forest" of thriving xenia to make an impact, especially in larger aquariums, but if you have enough room to plumb another tank/tub into your system with bright high-PAR lights and the time to prune the xenia back regularly it might be worth trying out.

2. That all depend on what a Kenya Tree is. :) Capnella? Nephthid? Lemnella? I even saw a photosynthetic gorgonian labeled as a "Kenyan Tree" the other day. Regardless of what species your kenya tree actually is, running activated carbon should help with any toxins typically excreted by soft corals to compete for substrate ... your E. glabrescens WILL kill any other coral it can reach - including other Euphyllia species such as frogspawns and hammer corals. Keep ample space between that torch coral and any other sessile inverts in your tank (which I hope is at least 30-40g because a properly fed/lit torch coral can grow very quickly)

Phurst
01-04-2008, 08:28 AM
your E. glabrescens WILL kill any other coral it can reach

No lie there. My torch fell on a large rock covered in GSP the other day, which I took to be nearly indestructible, but sure enough, it killed a pretty large patch of it.

doctorthompson
01-04-2008, 08:41 AM
No lie there. My torch fell on a large rock covered in GSP the other day, which I took to be nearly indestructible, but sure enough, it killed a pretty large patch of it.

If you cut the dead part(s) out of the matte the rest of the GSP colony should recover quite quickly in brisk water flow otherwise there could be useless nutrient sharing with the dead section that isn't going to recover no matter how much energy/nutrients are wasted on it.

Phurst
01-04-2008, 08:59 AM
Yeah, I'll cut it out this weekend. it shouldn't take it long to regrow that area.