All-in-ones vs. standard tanks

[Pinecone_Jeff]

Hey Folks,
I'm working out the kinks in my plans to start a nanoreef. I know I want to use a sump/refugium (I have a 30 gal for that), I have an old AquaC Remora that I'll use for skimming, I'm gonna try a 1/10 hp Current Prim mini chiller (our summers get hot and my A/C is just so-so), for lighting I was thinking of using T5s, and I want to take a stab at Astrivan's cryptic tube fuge (I just saw that video and it totally piqued my interest).

Anyway, what kind of a tank would you all suggest? Should I go with an all-in-one type or should I go with a standard tank?

Right now, I'm leaning towards an acrylic 20 gal long. I can use the lights I wanna use instead of having to retro an all-in-one hood.

But I do like the "clean" lines of an all-in-one... but then I don't really care about the "clean" lines. ;)

So what's you're vote?

[Phurst]

If you want to use a sump/fuge, T5 lighting and all that other stuff, just use a 20. The all in one tanks look nice and clean, but make it that much harder to use anything besides the equipment they come with.

[Pinecone_Jeff]

Yeah, I agree. But I've seen so many posts in other forums where they describe various mods on these all-in-ones. What's so special about them that makes people want to mod them rather than just getting a regular tank? I'm just curious. :)

[Seahorsedreams]

You know... I'm not sure anymore. We just plumbed a 60 gallon and afterwards I said... a lot to be said for all in ones. I own them all... large tanks, small tanks, all in one's from different makers, stand alones without a sump and then DIY models I have everything on.

How much time do you have to set one up? What is your experince level at plumbing a DIY one? There will always be problems when first setting it up that will drive you INSANE! None of these frustrations with the all in one setups.

It took 2 months to set up the 60... you would plumb so far and then make a change... had to go find the part or order it online... start again... missing another part because of the mod. And I've plumbed quite a few tanks... and still there are unforseen problems that delay you almost to the point of giving up.

All the all-in-ones go up in an hour.

[Phurst]

Renee is right. No hassle is the all-in-ones, and they work just fine un-modded (although many work BETTER with a few mods). With a regular tank, assuming you're comfortable plumbing and setting everything else, you're only limited by your immagination.

[Pinecone_Jeff]

Well, I had about 6 years or reef experience but been away from it for about 3 years now. I have 0 experience with plumbing. However, I do things really slowly. I've been thinking about this tank for well over 6 months now, lol. I have a few pieces of equipment from my old tank that're in great shape.

I guess I just need to decide if I wanna go DIY or All'n1. Good points so far guys. Thanks for the help!

[NaClFinatic]

I got a 24" T5 fixture thats two bulbs and is very nice. BUT the small T5 bulbs are almost as much as the large ones. So, based on that I would also consider the price of CF or a single MH. And if you will have a chiller, there is not as much worry about the MH on a small tank. Plus you have all that sump volume.

If you're doing a sump you are going ot have to do somehting for that (drill or siphon box) on a all in one or a DIY

[rroselavy]

Well, I had about 6 years or reef experience but been away from it for about 3 years now. I have 0 experience with plumbing. However, I do things really slowly. I've been thinking about this tank for well over 6 months now, lol. I have a few pieces of equipment from my old tank that're in great shape.

I guess I just need to decide if I wanna go DIY or All'n1. Good points so far guys. Thanks for the help!

My Nanocube 24g (72w PC) is fine for a FOWLR, but insufficient for much else without severe modification. Today, you are able to get much stronger lighting - including 150w HQI, but those require chillers or fans to cool off the DT.

If your not plumbing a closed loop, I don't think a simple overflow and return is beyond the grasp of most people. Flexible PVC, vinyl tubing, barbed fittings and hose clamps can reduce the task considerably. You can buy Durso (http://www.dursostandpipes.com/) (and probably Stockman) overflow assemblies on line. The trickiest part is drilling your tank, but there are tools (http://www.twopartsolution.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=70_71) that make this process a bit more surefire.

Listen to me... I have done ZERO diy and I'm acting all confident. Sorry...

I vowed not to get another all-in-one, not because I dislike the idea (I LOVE the idea) - but because even the most recent incarnations have serious limitations. For example, some manufacturers claim they have a "full size" refugium. By "full size", one would assume that the refugium takes up most if not all of the back chamber - but in practice they are 1/4 to 1/3 of the sump area. Just big enough for some rubble and a ball of Chaeto. Cadlights seems like they will do some custom AIO work if you contact them. Their AIOs look pretty nice, and you can BYO lighting if you wish.

Conversely, I think there is something elegant about just going out to a pet store and buying a $24 20T AGA tank (24"lx12"wx16"h) and add a DSB, HOB Skimmer, HOB fuge and maybe HOB filter or reactor with 24" T5 lighting. I am thinking of setting up a second tank at work that way.

-S

[rroselavy]

Oh, and I have seen some 20L's that were really elegant. The wide proportions are more appealing, IMHO.

-S

[duke1231]

I started out using a 29gal. I did the plumbing for my sump and had the whole thing. I now have AIO bio-cube, and I love. It looks really good and maintainence on it is real easy. My parameteres have been perfect with not much intrusion on my part. Another thing that might be just me, is I don't have a evaporation problem like my 29gal. Thats just my .02, and I am still a newbie.

[Pinecone_Jeff]

Thanks for all your feedback folks. This helps a lot! I've had two nanos in the past for several years. One was a regular 10gal at work with an HoB Aquaclear that I turned into a "mini-sump" for a tiny air driven skimmer. I also had a 6 gal Eclipse that I moded to include that same Aquaclear/skimmer setup as well as the hood where I was able to squeeze in 3 (18 watt?) PC bulbs!

Anyway, both did really well the first couple years. But sure enough, I couldn't export the excess nutrients fast enough, even with bi-weekly 10% water changes. By the last half of the last year I had these two tanks, the algae had gotten so bad in one, I had to tear it down. The 10 gal at work did really well, but I had grape caulerpa in there and that dang stuff took over the entire tank. I couldn't pull that stuff out fast enough!!!

I think I'm going to go with a 20 gal long acrylic tank and drill my own bulkhead. Since I want a decent sized sump/refugium anyway, I'm gonna have to do some DIY work anyway. So I might as well go with a tank dimension I really like.

And rroselavy, your notion about using MH over T5s, especially since I'm going to use a chiller, is well taken. I'll look into that. Anyone have any experience with lighting systems like MH over your nanos? Have you needed supplimental lighting like PC or T5s to fill in the lighting spectrum (just to warm things up a little... I'm not too fond of tanks that look too blue).

Gosh, there's so many things to consider!!! I'm glad you all are so eager to contribute! :)

[rroselavy]

The 10 gal at work did really well, but I had grape caulerpa in there and that dang stuff took over the entire tank. I couldn't pull that stuff out fast enough!!!

Whoops. Caulerpa is banned in the state of California, no?


I think I'm going to go with a 20 gal long acrylic tank and drill my own bulkhead. Since I want a decent sized sump/refugium anyway, I'm gonna have to do some DIY work anyway. So I might as well go with a tank dimension I really like.


If your going the bulkhead route, consider plumbing a remote DSB bucket (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/filtration/4748-rdsb-bucket.html#post56370) for nutrient control. You may be able do do this using a 2-3 gallon container in your sump.


And rroselavy, your notion about using MH over T5s, especially since I'm going to use a chiller, is well taken. I'll look into that.

I wasn't suggesting that you go with MH so much as indicating that the AIO Nanos that are available today have much better lighting than they did just a short while ago. I actually prefer to avoid using a chiller if possible because of the expense and added bulk of the system.

Therefore, I would probably go the T5 HO route, but splurge on a fixture with individual reflectors. The 24" Aquactinics fixture comes to mind.

A standard 20L is elegant (30"x12"x12"), but an awkward length and depth for MH (and mounting options). It is very shallow. Two 70w lamps could produce a more even illumination several inches above the water, while a single 150w MH could be too bright toward the center the same height. Raising the 150w MH to 10" would help, but but you still have a brighter center than ends. This may dictate your coral placement.

IMHO, this sounds like argument for T5 HO for a tank of that depth and length...

BTW: Regarding T5 bulb selection, there is a great thread (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1169341&perpage=25) on RC about T5 HO bulb tips and suggestions. Most people write "I have such-and-such fixture, I would prefer this coloration, what type of T5 HO bulbs should I get" and the Grim Reefer gives them exactly what bulbs they should buy and in what order they should be installed. Seems like a full time job for the person.

-S

[rroselavy]

I think I'm going to go with a 20 gal long acrylic tank and drill my own bulkhead. Since I want a decent sized sump/refugium anyway, I'm gonna have to do some DIY work anyway. So I might as well go with a tank dimension I really like.

Which brand/model of acrylic tank are you thinking about?

Clear For Life (http://www.advanceaquatanks.com/acraqurectangle.html) makes a 20 S 30"x10"x14" tank that is pretty close to a 20L. Seaclear (http://www.casco-group.com/standardaqua.html) is another choice, but they do not seem to make something similar to a 20L. Cannot vouch for either myself, and I am not a big fan of thin walls/aggressive bracing approach that these tank makers have, but I've read some really cool threads by Tigahboy on NR (and elsewhere) who did some nice DIY work with Seaclear tanks.

Tigahboy also posted a really cool thread on overflow assemblies (http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=69372&st=0). For stockman type overflows, which Tigah seems to prefer, check out this site (http://home.nc.rr.com/stockmanreef/).

-S

[rroselavy]

Just to bug you once more-

If you want to push the volume of your nano, you may also consider a 30 BR (36x18x12), which gives you more water volume (!!!), more front to back space for better flow (!!!) and rock placement, and more fixture mounting choices while maintaining the long proportions.

40 BR dimensions (36 x 15 x 16in) are one of my favorites, which certainly pushes beyond the notion of nano.

-S

[Pinecone_Jeff]

Whoops. Caulerpa is banned in the state of California, no?
Maybe it is now. A few years ago, I could get grape caulerpa.
I just did a search for banned caulerpa in California and I found this site. There are 9 species of caulerpa banned now! http://swr.nmfs.noaa.gov/hcd/caulerpa/9_Species_Brochure.pdf


If your going the bulkhead route, consider plumbing a remote DSB bucket (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/filtration/4748-rdsb-bucket.html#post56370) for nutrient control. You may be able do do this using a 2-3 gallon container in your sump.
Oooh, great idea! I'll have to look into that and factor that into my plans. I was thinking of forgoing a DSB and using that cryptic tube fuge setup for extra bio filtering.


I wasn't suggesting that you go with MH so much as indicating that the AIO Nanos that are available today have much better lighting than they did just a short while ago. I actually prefer to avoid using a chiller if possible because of the expense and added bulk of the system.

Therefore, I would probably go the T5 HO route, but splurge on a fixture with individual reflectors. The 24" Aquactinics fixture comes to mind.I see. I'm probably gonna get a chiller anyway just because my house can get hot in the summer.



A standard 20L is elegant (30"x12"x12"), but an awkward length and depth for MH (and mounting options). It is very shallow. Two 70w lamps could produce a more even illumination several inches above the water, while a single 150w MH could be too bright toward the center the same height. Raising the 150w MH to 10" would help, but but you still have a brighter center than ends. This may dictate your coral placement.

IMHO, this sounds like argument for T5 HO for a tank of that depth and length...I totally see your logic here and this sounds good to me.


BTW: Regarding T5 bulb selection, there is a great thread (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1169341&perpage=25) on RC about T5 HO bulb tips and suggestions. Most people write "I have such-and-such fixture, I would prefer this coloration, what type of T5 HO bulbs should I get" and the Grim Reefer gives them exactly what bulbs they should buy and in what order they should be installed. Seems like a full time job for the person.

-S

Thanks for all your tips and advice! I'm still collecting information from various sources, re-listenhing to the TR Podcasts, and getting excellent advice from the forum here!

[CarmieJo]

I saw these tanks at MACNA and thought they were nicely done. finnex-web (http://www.finnex.net/newlayout/php/client/itemdetail.php?id=33)

[rroselavy]

I saw these tanks at MACNA and thought they were nicely done. finnex-web (http://www.finnex.net/newlayout/php/client/itemdetail.php?id=33)

I almost became seduced by the 30g since it is more standard 24" wide. The DT section is not very wide (http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=FI-MTG-2402Q&Category_Code=Aquariums) from front to back, but certainly wider than a 20L. Most users on NR (http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=108867&view=findpost&p=1019490) who have these tanks have their rock piled up against the back wall.

If I wanted to buy another AIO, this would probably be the one. It would be nice to get the tank without the lighting though so I could chose my own...

Hmm..I wonder if you could get Finnex to drill a bulkhead hole for future expansion... :tongue2:

-S

[NaClFinatic]

That's a pretty nice tank and not bad price. But gets me to thinking if I could get a nice deep tank and slice up some acrylic it could be a pretty cool nano...

[CarmieJo]

I talked to them for a little while just because I liked the design. They seemed eager to please.

[Pinecone_Jeff]

Ah ha ha ha... my little poll is all tied up. I guess I'm just going to have to start two tanks! LOL.

[Pescaiolo]

Id go with the standard 20g long. It a very striking tank when done right. :)

[clownfish4me]

looks like your at a dead heat!:p *50/50* it will be interesting to see how it turns out and what you decide on...... allot of good points for both style tanks have been given!

[Pinecone_Jeff]

looks like your at a dead heat!:p *50/50* it will be interesting to see how it turns out and what you decide on...... allot of good points for both style tanks have been given!I know! LOL. And throw in the mix... my wife hinted at me that a big tank might be nice to have. AHHHGGGHHH!!! What to do! :D Maybe I'll do both! Back to doing more research for me.

[clownfish4me]

i would definitely jump on the bigger tank while you got the CHANCE! :D i was going to suggest a slightly bigger tank than the 20 gal. to begin with. but figured it was due to a space issue. it would be easier with a bigger tank IMHO, keeping the water more stable, less of a swing in water perimeters.:agree:

[rroselavy]

I know! LOL. And throw in the mix... my wife hinted at me that a big tank might be nice to have. AHHHGGGHHH!!! What to do! :D Maybe I'll do both! Back to doing more research for me.

Big tank...what are we talking about, 30g? :tongue2:

-S

[Pinecone_Jeff]

Hahaha!!! Big for our house would be a 54 or 90 gallon corner.

[rroselavy]

Hahaha!!! Big for our house would be a 54 or 90 gallon corner.

Yeah. I'm setting up a 55g now an it seems HUGE compared to my nano.

Very capacious.

-S

[CarmieJo]

Agree, bigger is better.

[V]

yep agreed, however we've seen many times before, bigger can mean bigger responsibility, & can have a negative impact as a whole. If your talking nano, bigger is better to the general masses, the smaler you go the more your pushing natures envelope. Its not for the timid or inexperienced. Problem is people choose nano's because they are cheap & workable, real world doesn't always work out that way. If you want to see a nano marvel , wait another year (veriann typical progression rate) & you will see my specimin tubes in action. The worlds smallest micro squisshy nano.

[Pinecone_Jeff]

Well, I've had 3 nanos and a 37gal for 6 years in the past and that was an awesome good time. Stupid power outtage wiped me out though. So for this next project, I'll be sure to have some kind of a UPS and a power generator! :D