Okay...remember in the tank maintenance podcast where i said i have a bryopsis dominated tank? well i am not kidding. The hair algae is out of control! It is covering everything, even coralline algae. I need some ideas on how to control this crap. First let me give you a rundown:


Tank size: 100 gallons.
Sump/fuge: 75 gallons
Salinity: 35 ppt
pH: 8.2
Temp: 80 to 82 (depends on outside temp)
nitrate, nitrite, ammonia: All zero, not that i would be able to detect any nitrate with so much algae anyhow.
KH: 10
CA: 320
Lighting: 2 38-watt T5 bulbs 10,000K
Deep sand bed.
Coralife Super skimmer (rated for 220 gallons).
Two ocellaris clownfish (about 1.5 inches long each)
Two sea urchins (Caribbean hitchhikers)
I had 10 hermits.
Flow: two Maxijet 1200s, Quietone 750 return pump.
Cycle: Tank and dsb have been up and running since May 07.


The food i use (flakes) does not contain any nitrate or phosphates and i only feed a very very small pinch twice a day. The fish eat just about every flake, although a few float over the overflow into the sump.

I use, and have always used, RO/DI water. I also use IO Reef Crystals salt mix and have been trying to get my calcium levels up.

In the sump, there is a huge (basketball size) ball of chaetomorpha algae and even some ogo. There is a Light of America light pointing directly into the sump water on top of the algae. It is on 20 hours a day.

The lights up top are on for 10 hours, and i have tried turning them off for several days, to no avail.

I know the two key nutrients must be coming from somewhere, but where?

Here are some plans i have for this crap:


Purchase: 3 fire shrimp, 2 emerald mithrax crabs, 24 blue legged hermits, 24 scarlet hermits, 15 cerith snails, 12 margarita snails, 15 nerites.
Rearrange the structure of the sump so that all of the tank water (instead of just half) flows over the dsb before the skimmer.
Add 50 pounds of base rock, or cheap live rock, to the sump.
Remove all of the live rock from the display and scrub it down. I know this is not a great idea but i cannot remove the algae via siphoning. While this is appart, i will give the sand bed in the display (not the dsb) a good cleaning with the siphon to take out any dead animals.


Any ideas or suggestions? This hair algae issue is like none i have ever seen. The dumb stuff has stopped all of my progress to this point. I cannot add coral until i add more lights and i cant add more lights because the algae will just take over the tank.

Is it hair algae or bryopsis? They are 2 different things. Either way, it sound like you're on the right track. When I first set up my tank, I bought my salt water from a LFS that used RO/DI, but I used tap for my topoff. When I swithed from 20K bulbs to 10K, the algae just exploded. It is receding now, slowly, due to several actions on my part. I was growing cheato in my hang on fuge, but it wasn't very much. I rearanged my sump and moved some down there with lighting and have been letting it grow without pruning. I have stepped up my water changes from 10 gallons a week to 20. I have added 2 phosban reactors. one with carbon, and one with phosban. Also, I have been removing it manualy as best I can. i just pull out whatever i can reach and put it in a bowl of fresh water, so i can dip my fingers in it and get all the little pieces off. This allows my cheato to absorbe more of the free nutrients and out compete my hair algae. After a good round of manual removal, i also blast my rocks with a powerhead to blow off all the detritus that was trapped by the algae.

If it's Bryopsis, similar methods should work, and you may want to look into the magnesium thread on Reef Central. I can find the link if you need me to.

Basicaly, you need to find out where the nutrients are comming from. They are there, or your algae wouldn't be growing.

Battling algae is also one of the few times i would advocate using a UV filter to kill off the free floating spores and whatever little pieces get broken off, so they can't attach somewhere else.

Calurpa is also an EXCELLENT nutrient exporter and could help starve out the the hair algae or bryopsis, which ever it is.

I am battling the same enemy and it is a pain in the reef!!! If you have trouble getting your Calcium up, I would strongly suggest testing your Magnesium. Mag is directly related to the ability of raising Cal levels. NSW carries Mag at 1250ppm. My guess is your Mag will test out at 850. With proper dosing you should be able to reach 1400ppm giving you a bit of leeway.

Hey thanks all. Yes i need to test Mg, which means i need to get a kit. I suspect it is quite low. However, i am about to move to calcium chloride (dow flakes), Epsom salts (mg sulfate) and washing soda (sodium carbonate) as a supplemental routine, according to a recipe by Randy Holms-Farley.

Also, thanks for the claupera suggestion Bobby. I used to have lots of it (now that i think about it, i had lots of it before the hair algae outbreak) but it was all eaten by my oxynoe, which is now dead (didn't find out what it was and what it ate until just before it starved). I will add some to my Marine Depot order.

Another thing i was thinking: maybe i should get a phosphate test kit anyhow. It might be worth testing my RO/DI water just to make sure it is clean.

Oh, and i thought bryopsis and hair algae were the same thing? Are they completely different or different species?

Samuel,

When we went on vacation the beginning of July I came home to a tank full of HA. My BTA split and the clone died. My tank sitter would not have known to look for the clone. She also fed a packet of flake food every day instead of every other day. By the time I got home the HA had taken over. It is finally starting to get under control.

What I have been doing is manually removing the HA. It is getting easier to pull off the rocks which is a good sign. When I do a water change I pull at least one rock out and scrub it in a bucket of change out water. I then swish it in another bucket of change out water so I don't add fragments back into the tank. I can now sometimes siphon globs of it off, something I couldn't do a few weeks ago. I have been changing my water more frequently, 10% twice a week instead of weekly.

I grow both caulerpa and chaeto in my sump. I think that pruning it regularly encourages it to grow and enables it to take up more nutrients. During this episode neither has grown much at all.

I am batting some of these same issues. Today my LFS hightly recommended a Rainford's Goby (Amblygobius rainfordi) to me.

Apparently if you are looking for a critter to eat some of this nuisance algae, there's no better way to go.

That's good to know Carmie. I have noticed mine comes off of the rocks easier now.

Part of the problem, i have now discovered, is the complete lack of hermit crabs and any HA predators. Why? Something is eating them apparently. I had something like 15 hermits and all that's left is empty shells. Typical. Time to find the damn mantis, which, i think, is a major cause of the problem. Check the progress (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/general-marine-discussions/4871-odd-tapping-sounds.html). I think i know where it's home is, and now those rocks are going into the sump!

Oh, speaking of which, does it matter if HA is growing in the sump? At first i didn't think so, but i guess it would allow spores and sections to get sucked back up into the tank.

Samuel, I've heard of people growing HA in their sump with a if you can't beat them join them philosophy.

Jeff, I had heard that about Rainfordi's goby too but my research showed it is an omnivore that may eat filamentous algae. I haven't given one a try.

Hmm, interesting point Carmie. Last weekend i started the second step in fighting this crap. The first step was to remove the mantis rocks into a separate tank. I will let him get hungry and lure him with some shrimp. The second step, a major one, was to rearrange the entire sump. Now, all my water flows: DSB w/ chaeto --> skimmer --> carbon + phosphate sponge --> return. Hopefully this will boost my denitrification.

Step three: get the inverts.

I don't know if this is a popular remedy, but several friends and myself have had excellent results using "Marine S.A.T." to eradicate hair algae. It is reef safe and doesn't destroy "good" algae. It is a live bacterial culture that competes with binding sites of the HA, so you need to turn off your UV sterilizer for 10 - 12 hours when you use it. Within a week you will see the HA turning brown, and then it quickly disappears. It is an excellent sole or adjuct HA approach.
Since I haven't seen much written about it here on TR, I wonder if it is out of favor for some reason I'm not aware of. All I can say is it has worked for me in more than one tank.
Jay

I have heard of it, but never knew anyone who had used it. I assume after the algae dies off, you have to do a massive water change? Still need to address the root cause too. I've been looking for some localy off and on, but haven't seen any yet.

Have you tested your RO/DI unit yet??? I wonder if your problems are from there??

Mike

I think that Rob used Marine SAT and actually mentions it in one of the podcasts. I hate to add anything to my tank that I don't have to but was to the point of considering it. I think it is like when I finally used Chemi-Clean for cyano (which I also got while on vacation with a different fish sitter). I had fixed the problem, added flow, and kept siphoning the evil stuff but it kept coming back. So I finally broke down and used it. It is effective when the underlying problem is corrected but probably a waste of time if it isn't.

The second step, a major one, was to rearrange the entire sump. Now, all my water flows: DSB w/ chaeto --> skimmer --> carbon + phosphate sponge --> return. Hopefully this will boost my denitrification.

Step three: get the inverts.


I'd seriously consider putting the skimmer first. Anything the skimmer is going to take out it is going to take RIGHT out (rather than "banking" it like macroalgae). Skimmer -> DSB -> Macroalgae -> Carbon -> Phosphate sponge. Careful with the calcium dosing if your DSB is in your sump, localized pH swings are the cause of "fusing" or "clumping" in aragonite substrates. (FWIW: the idea that a DSB will become fused or clumped due to nutrient accumulation is a myth, if it happens it is almost always due to localized pH swings)

Pluck out what you can by hand, do as much as you can every day - and keep up with regular water changes and replacement of your carbon and phosphate media -- and without even having a clue how much carbon you're using I feel confident in saying you could probably use 50% less. For a 175 gallon system you could probably get by with 4-5 tablespoons of carbon (100% changed weekly) if it's in a high flow area and not sitting passively in the bottom of a sump chamber. At the very least the carbon and phosphate media should be rinsed with RO water to clean off any detritus and to prevent any nitrifying bacteria from taking hold.

Don't go overboard on inverts or you won't be able to support them when the algae is gone - and it will eventually be gone! Algae waxes and wanes in cycles, so have patience, keep it off your corals, and enjoy the extra denitrification in the meantime!

My $0.02 (Canadian funds, which are actually worth something these days!)... sorry I'm so late to the party on this thread.


PS. What's the full pH range of your tank? is 8.2 the high or the low? I've found hair algae has a very hard time taking hold in my display tank since I've started keeping my daily pH in the 8.6 to 8.8 range. 8.8 is still well within range for most reef livestock -- although I wouldn't recommend a peak pH higher than around 8.5 for newcomers to the hobby or anyone at risk of water quality problems, even brief ones. A slight short-term ammonia spike that would go unnoticed in a mature tank at a pH of 8.2 could be deadly in a younger tank with a pH of 8.8.

Hey Doc, how do you get your PH up that high. I don't think I've gotten much ober 8.3.

I know the two key nutrients must be coming from somewhere, but where?

I'm the only person in my circle of local reefkeeping friends who buys phosphate test kits... in 6 out of 7 of my friends tanks that had detectable phosphate there was also a huge (anywhere from 2oz to 6oz) bag of carbon sitting somewhere in their system that hadn't been changed or even rinsed in over a month. All granular activated carbon can potentially cause elevated phosphate levels. If I remember correctly, this is due to the phosphoric acid used to wash it at the end of the manufacturing process...

Hey Doc, how do you get your PH up that high. I don't think I've gotten much ober 8.3.

Kalkwasser. Mostly added as "slurries" - up to 1.5g of calcium hydroxide paste squirted in front of a powerhead or manifold return over a period of 60 seconds or so - at night in the dark so our stupid stupid stupid lyretail anthia doesn't burn her mouth trying to eat the paste, which can have a localized pH of up to 13!! This should not be done without a calibrated electronic pH meter in your other hand (and you should stop squirting when it says 8.7!!!), nor done anywhere upstream of a DSB - I have a couple of MJ-1200s below my return manifold that are aimed almost straight up to keep the surface agitated so I typically dose above one of those - the kalk stays in the top 1/3 of the tank until it dissolves. There are other factors to take into account as well, such as how much calcium your tank uses and, thus, is capable of absorbing - or you risk a snowstorm of calcium precipitate. Anthony Calfo covers the kalk slurry method quite will in his Book of Coral Propagation.

Hmm, very interesting. How far away are you measuring the pH with your meter? Other side of the tank? Think it would be OK to dose slurry into my overflow? I've read Anthony's overview of the slurry on WWM, just never tried it except ocasionaly when my ATO kicks in while I'm mixing in kalk in my top off tank..

Hmm, very interesting. How far away are you measuring the pH with your meter? Other side of the tank? Think it would be OK to dose slurry into my overflow? I've read Anthony's overview of the slurry on WWM, just never tried it except ocasionaly when my ATO kicks in while I'm mixing in kalk in my top off tank..

I kept the probe in the middle of the tank, split the amount of calcium I had measured out (plus an extra 10% or so during the period I was trying to get the pH up). If it hadn't gone up a full 0.1 within 15 minutes I'd add the second half, otherwise the second half went into the top off water for a slow 8 hour drip. Anthony says it's safe to raise it by up to 0.2 in a 24 hour period but I preferred a localized increase of 0.05 or so every 3 days -- I was and will always be a bit paranoid about kalkwasser.

I confess that I haven't used a pH meter in about 4 months (ok, so I'm not THAT paranoid), just a calcium test kit and a digital postal scale to measure the calcium hydroxide -- but my calcium needs are very minimal (although much more than I thought they'd be, those sun corals use calcium like crazy). I also use a few mL of saturated kalkwasser (just the clear solution, no sediment or grit) to bring up the pH of replacement water for water changes if needed. To be honest, the slurry method probably isn't a very safe way to increase pH, and I think the only reason I didn't kill anything in my tank was probably because I took 3 months to get the average range from 8.0-8.4 (too low and too wide!) to the current 8.6-8.8 range -- a reverse lit refugium was also added to help maintain that range.

Dosing into your overflow would result in precipitated calcium carbonate settling in your sump and not getting to your corals, a calcified buildup on your return pump, possible fusing of any DSB in your sump, and you'd also miss out on most of the beneficial phosphate precipitation since any phosphate in your system will tend to be in higher concentrations in your display water, not your sump water.

Hrmmm, we've strayed WAY off topic now haven't we? Perhaps this should have been it's own thread

i have an eel in my 10 gal tank, along with some live rock and a few shrooms, and uncontrollable HA. The hermits in there, are pruning it down the best they can. I also have calurpa, cheato, and red grape algae in there but the HA is overgrowing it. My eel is small but i think he is dishing out too much waste. I only have a hang on filter with mixed media, that i change regularly. The tank has been up for almost 5 months and i've never battled with HA like this before. She's one mean mother to get rid of.

i have an eel in my 10 gal tank, along with some live rock and a few shrooms, and uncontrollable HA. The hermits in there, are pruning it down the best they can. I also have calurpa, cheato, and red grape algae in there but the HA is overgrowing it. My eel is small but i think he is dishing out too much waste. I only have a hang on filter with mixed media, that i change regularly. The tank has been up for almost 5 months and i've never battled with HA like this before. She's one mean mother to get rid of.


A 10g tank? Just pluck out all the hair algae you can, manually. Do this every day for the next 7 - 10 days, and also start increasing the size of your weekly water changes from whatever your current water change schedule is. I do 50% weekly changes in a little 5g tank I recently set up with a bunch of yellow and black sun corals - cuz salt is cheaper than filtration equipment! I'd get rid of the media from the hang-on-back filter other than maybe carbon, as long as you change it regularly... using small amounts and changing 100% of it at a time can be extremely effective: no more than a tablespoon (yes, 1 tbsp) of good quality carbon placed in a small filter bag and changed weekly should keep dissolved organics to a minimum.

Caulerpa is quite noxious to keep in a tank this size, your shrooms and your eel might both do better without it.

Consider adding a small powerhead aimed perpendicular and slightly below the flow from the hang-on-back filter, the extra flow and turbulence from the intersecting currents will get more bang-for-the-buck out of your live rock.

That seems like it should work, I do 25% water changes weekly so I guess I'll increase that. Pulling it out manually is an epic task. BTW noxious, how so? When it gets pruned?

pull out what as much as you can handle every day, keep a glass of freshwater handy to rinse your fingers/tweezers/whatever in each time before putting them back in the tank.

noxious as in the chemicals it releases to prevent being encroached upon by other plants/corals

Oh wow, i hadn't checked this thread in a while. To give an update as to where i am with all of this:

I have identified a potential source of nitrates: spiders.

Yes, spiders. Not reef spiders, just your typical house spiders. I was cleaning the screen on my skimmer pump and found 4 dead spiders stuck to it. I was wondering about this; we have a lot of spiders in our house (since our screens suck) and i was curious if any were getting into the tank. Well, i guess i have my answer! I have some extra fiberglass window screen left and i think i will work on covering the sump containers and maybe the back of the tank as well.

Or, i could fix the dumb windows in the house....

Thanks so much for your suggestions doc. I will have to start yanking the stuff out more frequently. I didn't realize that about the carbon. You are right, i can probably use like 80% less: at the moment i have been using like 2 cups in different bags. Guess that's too much :)

I just got my shipment of Mg and Ca from The Two Part Solution, so i can now start upping my calcium, magnesium, and pH. To answer your question doc, my pH ranges from 8.1 to 8.2. Low i know, which is why i am happy i have my additives now.

I was cleaning the screen on my skimmer pump and found 4 dead spiders stuck to it. I was wondering about this; we have a lot of spiders in our house (since our screens suck) and i was curious if any were getting into the tank. Well, i guess i have my answer! I have some extra fiberglass window screen left and i think i will work on covering the sump containers and maybe the back of the tank as well.

heh... not sure they're a source of nitrate, but I did witness a wicked battle about a month ago between a large black garden spider and an aiptasia... the aiptasia won but died soon afterwards.

Thanks so much for your suggestions doc. I will have to start yanking the stuff out more frequently. I didn't realize that about the carbon. You are right, i can probably use like 80% less: at the moment i have been using like 2 cups in different bags. Guess that's too much :)

Pull it out until you're sick of pulling it out... then do the same the next day. Every little bit helps.

Yeah, I used to use a cup in each bag too. One month when money for the tank was a little tight I used what I had left (maybe 2 tbsp in each bag) and sure enough the water went from a yellowish cast to perfectly clear in about 8 hours. From then on I've only used small amounts and have seen all the same benefits as when I used lots of carbon. Being cheap pays off sometimes! Not often, but sometimes. :)

I just got my shipment of Mg and Ca from The Two Part Solution, so i can now start upping my calcium, magnesium, and pH. To answer your question doc, my pH ranges from 8.1 to 8.2. Low i know, which is why i
am happy i have my additives now.

Again, I wouldn't recommend going much higher than 8.5 or 8.6, or you'll be in a position like I am... if I miss a day of kalk my pH will probably tank due to low alkalinity -- it measures 7dKh but that's probably a false reading. I'll likely switch my methods to something like the two-part solution after I move this month.

Hehe, that is pretty cool about the spider and aptasia. I was worried the spiders were rotting in the tank and causing my levels to go up, similar to over feeding. Too bad i don't have a predator of some type in the sump. What eats spiders? :)

Pulling hair algae certainly doesn't rank high up there on my list of fun things to do, but i will take your advice.

That is interesting about the carbon. i just took out two bags to change them, and i will just leave them out. I have a plastic "tray' to put the carbon in (from an old HOB filter from my freshwater tank) which holds about 2 or 3 tbsp. I have this right under the return so a good deal of the water hits it.

I put the screens over the sump(s) also. If nothing else it will help keep water from splashing up.

Oh, and i should probably note that the algae is decreasing. Each step seems to help. Thanks again for all your help!

I can't stress enough how much a blackout period can help. 2-3 days isn't going to do much, but 15-20 days will. And if circulation is good, you won't get cyano or diatoms taking it's place. This can get the situation manageable for your clean-up crew and most livestock can bounce right back from it.

What eats spiders? :)
Fish???

I can't stress enough how much a blackout period can help. 2-3 days isn't going to do much, but 15-20 days will. And if circulation is good, you won't get cyano or diatoms taking it's place. This can get the situation manageable for your clean-up crew and most livestock can bounce right back from it.

15 to 20 days! Wow, that is a lot longer than i had thought. I have done a week before but never anything longer. I will start yanking the stuff out and then start a blackout this week. Never hurts to save some electricity either.

Wow, that's a long time. Will corals/clams/aneomones be OK for that long? I assume you have to gradualy ramp up your photoperiod after that? How about just running actinics for 20 days?

You you need to pay attention to pH levels during a planned blackout such as this? I know that when the lights are off the pH drops, I would assume with the lights off for an extended period of time, it could get nasty...

ahh yes, that would make sense those bast@&% plants releasing pytochemicals whenever they feel like it. I'll surely try the freshwater dip before hand, sounds like a good idea to do

you could always buy a sea hair... what ive done and it tears up my HA. When it nips it down the almost none or runs out of stuff to eat i just put it in my refugium to take care of my chaeto until i start to see the HA grow back. then i fish him out and put him back in the main tank

also i tried going lights out for 2 weeks. turned it back on after 14 days and the HA went nuts again.
i was extremely dismayed and upset

I thought about a sea hare, but concerned about starving it after the HA is all gone...

My sea hare is kicking butt currently. Check with your LFS if they will take him back after all your algae is gone. Mine said they would. Or, see if another local reefer will take him off your hands.

Cory,

If the HA keeps coming back after it is gone the nutrients are coming from somewhere. You really need to figure that out and eliminate the source or you will battle algae issues all the time.

I have been doing some reading on the sea hare solution since it was raised. My LFS has a couple for sale, and they agreed to "rent" one to me to help with my HA issues. But I kept on reading...

Sea hares in the Aquarium
Julie Van Horn

Taken from Aquarium Systems “Sea Scope” Newsletter, Vol 22 Issue 1
http://www.marineland.com/seascope/ss2005_issue1.pdf

Most aquarists regard sea slugs with one idea in mind: algae eaters. It is true that they do eat large quantities of algae, but sea slugs are singular creatures in their own right. First it is important to distinguish among the types of sea slugs. The sea slugs most commonly appearing at an aquarium store near you are likely either nudibranchs or sea hares. Nudibranchs are generally less than a few inches in length, brightly colored and have highly specific dietary requirements. Sea hares are significantly larger, less brightly colored and have more general diet preferences. Responsible aquarium keepers know what they are buying and its proper care. Many people have heard of nudibranchs, but sea hares are a different story. A sea hare in an aquarium store is likely to be of the genus Aplysia. The largest Aplysia is the California sea hare (Aplysia californica), which can grow to 3 three feet in length! Not to worry though, this kind of growth is unlikely in a home aquarium. Sea hare growth is limited by the quality and quantity of food they receive. Aplysia are not overly fond of hair algae, but if that is all that is there, they will reluctantly try to eat it, even though it is not their natural food. To really make a sea hare happy, feed it freshly collected seaweeds like sea lettuce (Ulva). Terrestrial plants (romaine lettuce or zucchini) will suffice, as will dried seaweed (nori). A young healthy sea hare will literally eat as much as is put in the tank, but beware, it passes through the sea hare’s digestive tract almost as quickly.

In the best of circumstances, a sea hare’s life expectancy is just over a year. With so little time, reproduction is paramount. Sea hares are hemaphrodites, but this doesn’t mean they can reproduce without a partner. Because of the way the plumbing is laid out, they cannot self fertilize. Instead, a second sea hare will act as either a male, transferring sperm to the first via an eversible penis located on the right side of the head, or as a female, receiving sperm from the first through a gonopore located in the middle of a sea hare’s back. Groups of mating sea hares form loops or chains that can be quite extravagant. Obviously, it’s much more fun for the aquarist and the sea hares if more than one are kept.

The end result of all this activity is eggs. Sea hares stick their eggs, which resemble green spaghetti, onto the walls of aquariums. In about a week the eggs will hatch and the egg masses will disappear, releasing microscopic larvae called veligers. Most veligers are removed by the filtration system in fairly short order. Survival in a home aquarium is not likely, as the veligers require phytoplankton food and specific types of algae upon which to metamorphose into adults. Sea hares are low-key creatures. They don’t bother other animals and other animals don’t bother them. On the rare occasion that a sea hare is genuinely annoyed however, it is capable of ejecting purple ink. The color is derived from pigments in the diet. Starved or old sea hares release blue ink. Nearly blind, sea hares depend on their senses of touch and “smell”. When food is put into the aquarium, they immediately stop what they are doing and begin casting about with their heads to zero in on the source. The two “ears” on top of a sea hare’s head are called rhinophores. The rhinophores, along with the “mustache” or oral tentacles around a sea hare’s mouth receive chemical cues from objects in the water of interest to them, namely food or other sea hares. The oral tentacles, combined with the anterior part of the foot are used to grasp and manipulate food.

Sea hares do not have teeth. They grasp their food by means of a rough tongue like structure called the radula. Different kinds of sea hares have distinct looking radulas, which are adapted to the type of food they prefer. The radula is lined with rows of radula teeth. Aplysia radula teeth are short and fairly blunt while those of another sea hare, Bursatella, has radula teeth that are long and hooked. Between the mouth and the gizzard is a crop that stores food on its way to a muscular organ called the gizzard. The gizzard is endowed with gizzard teeth made of chitin that serve to further grind up food. Then it’s just a short trip through the intestine and out through a siphon in the center of the sea hare’s back, posterior to the shell. Because a lot of what they eat is not digestible, the majority passes right through. Frequent bottom siphoning is a must if you insist on a neat aquarium with sea hares.

Some sea hares can swim. They have large winglike extensions, or parapodia, on either side of their bodies that they beat against the water, lifting them up. Other sea hares cannot swim, and must be content with slow sluglike movement along the sea floor with the aid of the muscular foot.

Although the term slug implies that sea hares are without a shell, in fact, Aplysia does have a shell. It is much reduced and internal, but can be felt in the middle of its back. The sea hare larva, or veliger, always has a shell, but some species lose it as they mature.

Sea hares are not a solution to hair algae. Forcing them to eat it is no fun and they will not thrive. Instead, if you decide to keep sea hares, feed them well and enjoy their slow motion antics as a contrast to the energetic swimming of tropical fish.

The key concepts I got from this article...

"Aplysia are not overly fond of hair algae, but if that is all that is there, they will reluctantly try to eat it, even though it is not their natural food."

"Sea hares are not a solution to hair algae. Forcing them to eat it is no fun and they will not thrive."

Knowing this, is it using an animal in this manner an ethical thing? I'm thinking maybe not... at least for me...

Too bad... I was hoping this would be the solution.

now i feel like a jerk.... i guess i should return him then. and i have a lot of HA in my refugium.it is all intertwined with my chaeto so its a pain to get out and i thought of just wrinsing it but that didnt do nething but kill my amphipods and i did use saltwater but they died neways...i feed once a day half a cube of mysis shrimp to my 5 fish in my 30 gallon so i dunno what it is, i have my lights on for 10 hours and off for 12

I have noticed a change in my HA over the last couple of days. A lot of it is starting to turn brown or yellow(ish). The only changes i have made:

-- re arranging of the sump to send 100% of the water over the DSB before being returned to the tank.
-- purchased, and now use, DI resin for my RO/DI filter. I wasn't using the DI before.
-- removed the odd "tapping rocks."

I am not sure which one of these specifically had a positive effect, but i suspect the DI resin really helped (after listening to Rob' podcast on the matter). I am sure sending the water over the DSB doesn't hurt; it wasn't getting much flow before.

Every time i yank some out, it seems to grow back a little slower. Now with this color change, i think i might have the damn stuff beat!

I will see if i can get some pics.

now i feel like a jerk.... i guess i should return him then. and i have a lot of HA in my refugium.it is all intertwined with my chaeto so its a pain to get out and i thought of just wrinsing it but that didnt do nething but kill my amphipods and i did use saltwater but they died neways...i feed once a day half a cube of mysis shrimp to my 5 fish in my 30 gallon so i dunno what it is, i have my lights on for 10 hours and off for 12



My intent was not to make you feel bad, but to share information.

But let's face it, we've all done something like this before. Sometimes it's hard to know when to make that call. Even after I read the article, I was still thinking about "renting" that sea hare. But the bottom line is I can't treat animals like that. Either kill it and grill it, or care for it. That's my motto.

1/2 cube of mysis in a 29/30 gallon aquarium seems like a LOT of food to me.

I feed twice a week. I feed about that much mysis, and then once a week the tank gets flake food. This tank is a 29 gal as well. I have cut waayyyyyy back on feedings trying to get my HA under control.

Cory, the HA & chaeto use the same nutrients. If you remove it from the sump those nutrients are still in the water and the HA will likely proliferate in your DT.

Samuel, my HA is nearly gone. Now I have a diatom bloom but I expect it will pass soon.

I have noticed a change in my HA over the last couple of days. A lot of it is starting to turn brown or yellow(ish).
...
Every time i yank some out, it seems to grow back a little slower. Now with this color change, i think i might have the damn stuff beat!

Sounds like it is collapsing. If the older/longer blades feel like they are "softening" you can probably start using a length of airline tubing, cut at a sharp angle, to scrape and siphon at the same time and remove larger mattes off the rocks at a time. If it works and you have any hungry snails sitting on the glass or hermits lounging around trying on the same 5 shells over and over, move a couple of them over to any area on the rocks you've scraped/siphoned from and let them pick at the algae remains. The less of that stuff left on the rocks the better. I think most species of snails & crabs sold for algae cleanup should be able to sink their teeth into the softened tissue/roots/remains as the HA collapses -- many nuisance genera from the Bryopsidaceae family are usually too tough for many cleanup crew species to chew after only a few days of growth.

What kind of hermits did you have... all are at the very least omnivores and some take to hair algae much more readily than others. Also if the hair algae gets to long they tend to not take to it at all because of the tough nature of the fibers. Were the hermit shells broken?

Please don't buy margarita snails. They are a cool water snail and will die prematurely in weeks to months. Even the LFSs around here sell them and they should know better... well they all should know better..... but the peeps around here know very full and well how cold the water is.... doesn't stop them from selling Catalina gobies either.

What kind of and how much skimmate is your skimmer producing?

I too would raise the pH. I like 8.4 but have had it at 8.6. It's rumoured that salt mixes in the future will actually be buffered to produce an 8.4 instead of the current 8.2. Keep your alkalinity at the high end of normal.

A beast for hair algae is the urchin. I have a long-spine. He can tear through a nice patch of algae in no time. But again you have to prune it short for them to be able to process it. An urchin will eat just about and type of filamentous greenery... and all your desireable algaes which include coralline. When mine ran out of nuisance algae I threw him in my sump and would prune macro from different tanks to feed him. Some days he got a clip full or nori.

Hi Renee!

What kind of hermits did you have... all are at the very least omnivores and some take to hair algae much more readily than others. Also if the hair algae gets to long they tend to not take to it at all because of the tough nature of the fibers. Were the hermit shells broken?

I have (or had) some scarlet and some electric blue dudes. I don't see much in the way of busted shells, but i don't see the hermits either. Out of the 17 or so i had, i have seen 2 recently. I am about to order more, any suggestions on species?

Please don't buy margarita snails. They are a cool water snail and will die prematurely in weeks to months. Even the LFSs around here sell them and they should know better... well they all should know better..... but the peeps around here know very full and well how cold the water is.... doesn't stop them from selling Catalina gobies either.

Thanks for the tip on this. I know one early problem i had with organic matter was from all the dead turbo snails. I have heard they can often be from the Carolinas' coasts and are therefore not suited to the warmer waters of our tanks. I will avoid the margarita snails as well.

What kind of and how much skimmate is your skimmer producing?

The thing is hard to adjust. It produces fairly wet skimmate at a rate of about 1 quart per four days. I have an incredibly small bioload: just two juvie clowns.

I too would raise the pH. I like 8.4 but have had it at 8.6. It's rumoured that salt mixes in the future will actually be buffered to produce an 8.4 instead of the current 8.2. Keep your alkalinity at the high end of normal.

Thanks for this tip as well. What is a good method to kick up the pH if the KH is already high (11.5 dkh).

A beast for hair algae is the urchin. I have a long-spine. He can tear through a nice patch of algae in no time. But again you have to prune it short for them to be able to process it. An urchin will eat just about and type of filamentous greenery... and all your desireable algaes which include coralline. When mine ran out of nuisance algae I threw him in my sump and would prune macro from different tanks to feed him. Some days he got a clip full or nori.

This is good to know too. I have two hitchhiker urchins from the Carribbean doing quite well. I see what you mean about not liking the long algae, they don't seem to touch it at all. I will have to try scraping it down and letting the urchins go at it. I would stay away from the long stuff if i were them too, seems like they would just get tangled in it :)

well i sold my seahair back to my lfs and i will miss him allot. sniff...neways i upped my water change to 40 % change instead of a weekly ten and picked out most of what i can grab. o and as for the mysis shrimp. i dont have any marine flakes. i feed them solely mysis. my LFS told me half a cube a day. the fish seem to leave none behind and i know they are eating machines but i have a flame angel, maroon striped clown, starry blenny, high fin banded goby and a solar wrasse...how much should i be feeding. i know less is more but i am afraid they will starve sometimes...any help?

Out of curiosity Coryg, do you use Selcon or other amino-acid supplements? I was using Selcon for my two clowns and i think most if it just floated away into the water column and contributed to the hair algae. I am not saying i don't like Selcon, i think it is great, just that i was using far to much for my two small fish. If i were broadcast feeding corals or something, i would gladly use it again.

just a thought :)

Wow, that's a long time. Will corals/clams/aneomones be OK for that long? I assume you have to gradualy ramp up your photoperiod after that? How about just running actinics for 20 days?

I didn't see any of those three in his list of inhabitants. Pretty much just a pair of clowns and some hermits. Running just actinics defeats the purpose entirely. A blackout lasting two-three weeks will wipe out a small infestation and will get a large one under control to the point that an average clean-up crew can catch up to it. Obviously, if you don't correct the core problem, the algae will return. In ambient room light, the fish will feed fine. And George Dubya, having done this just recently, the pH doesn't seem to continue to plummet like when you first turn the lights off. This seems like a scary tactic, but I did it in a tank with softies and LPS's and none looked remotely bleached when I eased the lights back to normal.
As for clean-up crew, I gotta say how happy I am that Renee reminds people about Margarita snails being a temperate animal. In my experience the Mexican turbo snails also do poorly in warm water.

And George Dubya, having done this just recently...

HAHAHA does he keep a tank? You could probably get mexican turbo snails from his buddy Vincente at a discount...

But I am JEFF dubya. :rotfl:

I was talking to the folks at SeaChem yesterday about some related issues... they recommended if you are going to kill the HA with a drastically reduced photoperiod, that relocating any animal that needs light to a different tank. That and when you have stuff dying off you wil be adding ammonia and nitrates to the water...

The other thing SeaChem mentioned is that if you kill HA with a photoperiod reduction or a chemical solution, it will invariably RETURN. Why? Because you haven't attacked the root of the problem.

AHa. but no i dont use selcon. i think i just overfeed. i just need to guage how much i should feed my fish from now on. i just over pamper them i guess

I didn't see any of those three in his list of inhabitants.

I was asking for my tank. The algae is fading, but I wanted to kick it in the a$$ on the way out the door.

HAHAHA does he keep a tank? You could probably get mexican turbo snails from his buddy Vincente at a discount...

But I am JEFF dubya. :rotfl:

Crap, that was an accident, I promise! http://i23.tinypic.com/zvacme.gif

I tried to make it clear that you have to take care of the root of the problem. Clearly if you simply repeat everything the way you had before, your situation will not get better. And for what it's worth, almost every invert in my tank requires light and are suffering no ill effects from right around 19 days of no lights. There won't be "die off" of hardy specimens in such a short time if the water parameters are good and the photoperiod is increased gradually.


Cory G, it's really hard via a computer to explain how much to feed. If there is a local marine aquarium society, I'd bet someone there would be happy to look at your tank. Just ask them to feed the fish as they would were the tank theirs. It may amaze you how little they feed. Or the problem could come from another source entirely, but I'd wager that hardy fish species seldom die of starvation in beginner's tanks.

Okay, i got a pic of the hair algae now.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2212/1537203996_3d840d2660.jpg?v=0

The stuff on the right third of the picture (on the glass) looks a bit yellow doesn't it? I just did a scrubbing and a siphoning so there is a lot less than there was earlier.

Those rocks DO NOT look like the rocks of a hair algae infested tank, bro! Your glass has some film algae on it, and I see a spot or two that are growing tall... but overall -I see more coraline than hair!

I was asking for my tank. The algae is fading, but I wanted to kick it in the a$$ on the way out the door.

:rotfl:

Not a bad idea at all!

I'd wager that hardy fish species seldom die of starvation in beginner's tanks.

Yes!!!

This was the first thing an experienced aquarist told me when I started back into the hobby. Heck, I have a species ID guide that SPECIFICALLY says to feed the fish 2-3 times PER DAY! And I wondered why my parameters were all out of whack?

I bet far more fish have been killed by overfeeding than underfeeding. No doubt about it.

yeah well my lfs told me one cube a day for my fish. and i spose thats why. i am part of the dallas fish boards but havent been on as much as this one. i spose i should. i fed less and the algae seems to be going away on its own and the reason i fed so much was due to the fact that my book said feed some fish 2-3 times a day...

Yes!!!

This was the first thing an experienced aquarist told me when I started back into the hobby. Heck, I have a species ID guide that SPECIFICALLY says to feed the fish 2-3 times PER DAY! And I wondered why my parameters were all out of whack?

I bet far more fish have been killed by overfeeding than underfeeding. No doubt about it.

I call that "killed by insufficient water changes", not killed by overfeeding. You can't overfeed most reef creatures. Actually, there's a presentation by Dr. Ron Shimek on imac.org (or maybe reefvideos.com) where he discusses collected data on how much food is actually consumed by the creatures living within an aquarium-sized 3'x3' section of a wild reef in 1 day... the figures were astounding.

I feed my 75g (which is practically empty compared to most) at LEAST 2-3 times per day -- plus my carpet anemone (Stichodactyla haddoni) gets 2 heaping tablespoons of finely chopped fish every night and my two sun coral colonies (Tubastrea falkneri and T. micrantha) each get a healthy dusting of cyclopeeze or similar type of food... BUT... I also do a 30-35% water change (25g) every week and have two 10" RDSB buckets and a 6" DSB refugium to keep up with and match that feeding schedule.

I think i finally kicked the HA habit! I did a rock scrubbing, boosted my cleanup crew, and started using DI resin in my RO/DI filter. The combination of all this seemed to do the trick.

The hair algae is still there, mind you, but it is not sustaining an overwhelming growth rate like it was before. That it exists doesn't really bother me, some biodiversity (yes, even in algae) i am certain is helpful. As long as it doesn't overgrow every square millimeter of the tank, i am okay with it.

Thanks for all your help with this everyone! Now i can actually start moving in to the world of corals!


Oh, a final note on feeding, since the topic has been raised. One item to mention about food, although i do not have any direct evidence for this, is the size of the particles you are feeding. I was using Selcon on my frozen mysis to make a "mysis soup" for my fishies. One day while feeding it dawned on me the cloud of pink Selcon floating off of the food into the water was probably not good. It is organic matter, and was certainly not being eaten by my fish since it was far to small. Selcon is great i am sure, and i still use it, but much less than i did before. As well, i feed slightly larger chucks of food, so the clowns have to pick at it several times to eat the whole thing. I figure this way less particulate organic matter finds its way into the water column and the peices the clowns miss are large enough to sink and be eaten by the nassarius snails and hermit crabs. I have even seen some corals munch on it if it comes there way. Just a though :D

I wonder though if the corals are eating the "soup broth"?

Not necessarily a bad habit if you know you've already got desirable species that will filter/eat that nutritious goop out of the water ... but quite a dangerous habit if it's a nutrient form/factor you aren't stocked for.

In any reasonably diverse tank something will inevitably step up to consume excesses such as your "Spicy Selcon Shrimp Soup Special" :). Some might get lucky and see an increase in their populations of cryptic or decorative sponges or some other benign filter feeders. Even having a species of nuisance algae step up to consume the excess nutrients probably isn't anywhere near as bad as, say, a bloom of some dangerous type of dinoflagellete or bacteria whose population would normally have been kept hammered down to bare minimums for the entire life of your tank until you fed it after midnight. (yes, that was a "Gremlins" joke for the other old folks in the audience :) )

As to whether corals would eat this Selcon Broth, I would assume liquid Selcon could be consumed by most octocorals (softies and small-polyped gorgonians and the like) - whether they "would" consume it is another question, one I'm certainly not qualified to even speculate upon. I would think almost all cnidarians in the tank could (and would) utilize many of the components in Selco/Selcon through absorption, although some components might break down and separate too quickly to be useful, with some compounds ending up as inert skimmate ingredients and others becoming nothing more than a raw material (mostly carbon) source for bacteria, diatoms (?), etc...


PS. If you can find it, buying "Selco" and mixing in your own DI water is probably cheaper in the long run than buying "Selcon" (which is mostly water, and thus even if it was reasonably priced you'd still be paying for the fact that water is heavy to ship).

Gremlins - I loved that movie!

I think i finally kicked the HA habit! I did a rock scrubbing, boosted my cleanup crew, and started using DI resin in my RO/DI filter. The combination of all this seemed to do the trick.

The hair algae is still there, mind you, but it is not sustaining an overwhelming growth rate like it was before. That it exists doesn't really bother me, some biodiversity (yes, even in algae) i am certain is helpful. As long as it doesn't overgrow every square millimeter of the tank, i am okay with it.

Thanks for all your help with this everyone! Now i can actually start moving in to the world of corals!

If you've boosted your cleanup crew it's probably not a bad idea to let the rest of the algae wane - as long as you keep up on maintenance and don't give it any good opportunities it should remain in check. I had to relocate snails from my display tank once about 2 years ago when I took the "kick it in the a$$ on the way out" route -- and not in a good way, in more of a frantic "Ack! Why do I detect 0.25ppm ammonia! Oh my, why are all those huge mostly-herbivorous snails at the back of my tank, behind the rocks, mostly dead or dying? Oh right, there's been no algae for over a month! I'm such an idiot!" kind of way. :) At least after that I always had a good answer for when "experienced" reefing friends condescendingly asking why I still bothered testing for ammonia on a regular basis in a well-established tank.

As for moving into the world of corals, a lot of "early colonizer" species such as Xenia and Clavularia will directly compete with hair algae, and even excess/visible cyanobacteria, for substrate dominance. If you've chosen a particular biotope for your tank have a hunt around the net for any case studies on reef recoveries in that biotope. I know natural recoveries are rarer and rarer these days but they do still happen, often only across isolated sections of a reef nowadays but that should still give you a decent species list to work from. Biologically it's probably safer/wiser to add corals long before you add fish even though most (arguably outdated) aquarium literature tends to say otherwise.

As for moving into the world of corals, a lot of "early colonizer" species such as Xenia and Clavularia will directly compete with hair algae, and even excess/visible cyanobacteria, for substrate dominance. If you've chosen a particular biotope for your tank have a hunt around the net for any case studies on reef recoveries in that biotope. I know natural recoveries are rarer and rarer these days but they do still happen, often only across isolated sections of a reef nowadays but that should still give you a decent species list to work from. Biologically it's probably safer/wiser to add corals long before you add fish even though most (arguably outdated) aquarium literature tends to say otherwise.

This is actually good props for what i happen to be doing (out of total ignorance). My glass overflow boxes do not have the black plastic things covering them, so you can see the standpipes and return pipes behind it. Not very attractive. My plan, however, is to let xenia grow up the glass and act as a living "black plastic thing."

Corals will be next. I will probably not go all out with the frags just yet, but having some in there would be nice.

Xenia as black plastic things - I like it!

This is actually good props for what i happen to be doing (out of total ignorance). My glass overflow boxes do not have the black plastic things covering them, so you can see the standpipes and return pipes behind it. Not very attractive. My plan, however, is to let xenia grow up the glass and act as a living "black plastic thing."

Xenia won't necessarily "grow" up the glass to cover it, they'll "move" up the glass towards the light (Xenia are the closest thing you can get to a coral that "only needs light") and probably only end up covering the top 1/3rd or so. Unless you're planning on farming them, this probably isn't ideal and can impact circulation and turbulence if you let them start covering the back or side walls, assuming a typical "rock pile in the middle" type of tank layout (FWIW, stacking live rock up against any of the tank walls will also tend to impact circulation and turbulence in a similar fashion).

Small, matte-forming, Zoanthid colonies (Z. sociatus or Z. pulchellus) could probably be encouraged to cover the entire height of the glass without too much of a problem, and probably wouldn't take out the Xenia at the top if you wanted to mix the two.

Low light mushroom corallimorphs (Rhodactis sp.) should work too and can end up looking pretty cool once you get a nice vertical wall of them. The colors of the specimens at the very top and very bottom will likely differ anywhere from slightly to wildly due to refractive (bottom) or reflective (top) pigments produced in response to the brighter light or lack thereof. A few of the bigger public aquariums (can't remember which of the top of my head) have done big vertical corallimorph displays and the color gradients look really cool, especially with a mix of 3 or 4 different species.

Oh wow, thanks Doc. Xenia were the only ones i knew of off hand that climbed glass, but i like the mushroom idea better. How would i get mushrooms started on the glass? Could i pull some off rocks and use some coral glue to stick them to the glass?

From what you describe, i think i would like the mushrooms better than the xenia. Either way, yes, i would harvest them once they started growing places i didn't want them.

Actually, to keep things organized we might want to head over to my tank building thread (http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/member-tank-projects/2838-samuels-new-huge-tank-4.html). Since we are off the hair algae topic :D

this is probably a little late for this thread ... better late than never !! check out this stuff ...

it is a bacteria that outcompetes the algae for food (nutrients) and starves it out.

Aquatic Exchange Marine SAT- hair algae treatment (http://www.aquaticexchange.com/product_info.php?products_id=1903)

I know less is more but i am afraid they will starve sometimes...any help?

Don't be afraid they will starve. They won't.

i dont have any marine flakes. i feed them solely mysis. my LFS told me half a cube a day. the fish seem to leave none behind and i know they are eating machines but i have a flame angel, maroon striped clown, starry blenny, high fin banded goby and a solar wrasse...how much should i be feeding. i know less is more but i am afraid they will starve sometimes...any help?

Don't be afraid they will starve. They won't.

Hrmm... for those fish, I'd have to say "They could" but only in the long term. Primarily the wrasse, the angel, and the maroon. If they are full grown I'd probably increase the amount of food a little bit but split it up into multiple feedings. I'm an admitted "overfeeder" myself (and always will be!), and as long as the fish aren't leaving anything behind you should be able to still keep nuisance algae at bay using a combination of any of the methods described elsewhere in this thread: skimming, macroalgae in a refugium, frequent partial water changes, etc..

Don't add any of the water you use to thaw the frozen food into your tank, pour it through a small strainer or similar device before adding the food to the tank - it sounds like a hassle if you don't already do it but it really can help with keeping nuisance algae at bay as that water can contain phosphate among other nasty things (bacteria, etc).

This isn't related to hair algae but I'd also vary the diet a bit as mysis alone aren't going to be nutritionally complete for any of those fish in the long term (do some research on each species for food ideas).

Don't add any of the water you use to thaw the frozen food into your tank, pour it through a small strainer or similar device before adding the food to the tank - it sounds like a hassle if you don't already do it but it really can help with keeping nuisance algae at bay as that water can contain phosphate among other nasty things (bacteria, etc).
I always recommend this. I thaw mine in a small strainer like this Matfer Bourgeat Small Strainers by Matfer Bourgeat Cookware, Kitchenware & Culinary Tools (http://www.galasource.com/prodDetail.cfm/56165)
and then rinse it with RO water.

This isn't related to hair algae but I'd also vary the diet a bit as mysis alone aren't going to be nutritionally complete for any of those fish in the long term (do some research on each species for food ideas). Absolutely. You wouldn't be healthy if all you ate was shrimp and neither will your fish. I am convinced that a varied diet helps keep your fish healthy and allows them to live long lives.

I always recommend [straining and rinsing frozen food]. I thaw mine in a small strainer like this Matfer Bourgeat Small Strainers by Matfer Bourgeat Cookware, Kitchenware & Culinary Tools (http://www.galasource.com/prodDetail.cfm/56165)
and then rinse it with RO water.

I usually thaw and rinse with warm tank water (a turkey baster's worth to thaw in, and another to rinse), so I use a plastic strainer. I've found that a metal strainer (or a metal "anything-that-touches-tank-water") corrodes much too quickly, even when rinsed and dried after each use. The inventors of "stainless steel" obviously didn't test the stuff in seawater.

I've been using this one for months but I don't rinse SW through it. After I rinse my food I knock it into a plastic cup, add whatever else I am feeding along with vitamins and garlic, let it soak for a few minutes and then add enough tank water to "dilute" it enough to easily suck up with a turkey baster.

Oh? The posts are gone :)

Well...to recap:

The stupid hair algae is coming back. I thought i had it beat but i see it growing all over the rocks again. However, i noticed something: the growth is not even over all the rocks. The first batch of rocks i added (not live) have 80 to 90% of the algae on them. Rather mysterious. So, i mentioned this to my LFS and he asked an interesting question. He wanted to know if i used lace rock or base rock. I told him i remembered th box being marked lace rock but the other store people said it was all the same. He said, no, in fact they are not the same. Lace rock is mined volcanic rock that has never seen contact with the ocean. It is rock pushed up from deep in the earth and often used in cichlid tanks. Some ignorant store owners, according to him, sold it as a cheap replacement for argonite base rock. Lace rock is not argonite (calcium) based and contains lots of other minerals (although he was not positive that phosphate was one of them). However, he said the porous structure of lace rocks are quite different than argonite base rocks mined from ancient oceans. Thus, lace rocks do not perform the same denitrifying properties as base rock. Furthermore, their porous structure traps detrius without processing it (the typical bacteria don't like lace rocks i guess).

I took out one my my hair algae covered lace rocks and smashed it. No goo oozed out of the rock, like he said might happen, but i got a strong wiff of hydrogen sulfide from the inside of the rock. This is interesting. I think i will remove all the lace rock (i have a few large pieces) and see if that reduces my algae issues.

Interesting experiment, keep us posted.

I generally agree with your LFS that terrestrial/mined rock (of any sort) can be problematic.

A few points:

- A lot of mined "lace rock" marketed for cichlid tanks is, in fact, calcareous.
- Any time you use dry rock (lace/base/whatever) you will see "invasive" species colonize quickly because, well, they're called "invasive" for a reason! Dry rock has absolutely nothing - not even bacteria - on it or inside it.
- Porous is Porous. Denitrifying bacteria will colonize anywhere the oxygen level is low and could care less if that was inside live rock, lace rock, base rock, fake rock, your sandbed, or the bottom of your kitchen garbage bag. Almost all nitrate reduction in a reef tank happens in the sandbed, not the rocks.
- Hydrogen sulfide in your rocks or sandbed is generally due to insufficient water flow (specifically: denitrifying bacteria are not getting enough nitrogen). This could be partially due to not rinsing/cleaning the lace rock well enough before placing it in the tank - limestone sedimentation and dust can clog up dry rock quite quickly.


So, if the pores in the rock seem "clogged" then the rock probably wasn't rinsed/cleaned well enough before being placed it in the tank... which means it also wouldn't have been washed well enough to remove any potential contaminants in the rock/dust - which could very well be a factor in your algae issue. Try the old "turkey baster in the hole" trick and see how much sediment you can blow out and let it settle to the bottom of whatever container you've got the rock in. Collect and examine the sediment in a smaller container (clear shallow bowl or petri dish) and see if you notice anything that doesn't look like sand.

Oooo the mystery deepens. I will give that a shot doc. Actually, i didn't realize i had to really rinse the rocks at all; i don't think i did.

So, do you think mineralization would be a problem even with base rocks mined from ancient oceans? ( like marco rocks). I wonder if it would be a good idea to let any new base rocks soak in RO/DI water for a while to suck out all the excess minerals.

So, do you think mineralization would be a problem even with base rocks mined from ancient oceans? ( like marco rocks). I wonder if it would be a good idea to let any new base rocks soak in RO/DI water for a while to suck out all the excess minerals.

My understanding regarding Marco's rock was that it wasn't mined, but simply collected - ie. might have still been "live rock" less than a year ago. I could be wrong but just looking at pictures of the product its quite obvious those are coral skeletons and, thus, probably not "mined". I know some people who boil them for a few hours in chlorinated tap water just to be safe... lots of marine creatures drop cysts just before dying, and not all of them may be as yummy as rotifers to your tank inhabitants (See dinoflagellate cysts (http://www.geus.dk/departments/quaternary-marine-geol/research-themes/env-cli-dino-uk.htm))

In my opinion: any dry rock should be rinsed/scrubbed and then soaked in a trashcan full of saltwater for at least a few weeks with lots of circulation and regular water testing, especially for iron and copper if it is any type of "mined" limestone. It should then seeded with real live rock for at least another few weeks or more, again with lots of circulation - this step can be done in the tank if it's a new setup, otherwise do it in the a Rubbermaid or trashcan. Don't worry about lighting it for the seeding phase - coralline takes a few months to really get started anyway and nothing else in there is going to need anything more than ambient room lighting. Some people recommend a period of "months" rather than weeks for the seeding process, which isn't actually all that outrageous especially if the rock is destined to be placed into an existing system. I remember reading the results of some biodiversity study a while ago where a bunch of base rock samples were placed on a real reef to be seeded and after 8 months none of the sample rocks showed more than a fraction of the amount of life found on samples of nearby (physically touching, in some cases) natural live rock.

Just for kicks... break off a tiny chunk, dry it out, and drop it in a bowl with a cup or so of vinegar and see how long it takes to dissolve - and how much doesn't dissolve.

Oooo, that sounds like fun. Just the Ca would dissolve right?

Basically. Remember the grade school experiment of putting a chicken bone in a jar of vinegar and waiting for it to turn to rubber?