Sick Clown

[goblin072]

We have a strange acting Clarki Clown. She has been a very tough fish but is now acting strange, swimming near the bottom and not moving around much.

We did lower the temp 2 deg to 76c about a week ago (To keep alge) down. Could this be it? The other fish all act the same so we did not think that was it.

The water parameters have not changed. I was wondering how one could tell if the skimmer was removing enough protein. Is there a protein in the water test? Or are there other tests that can be done on the water? I know there is suppose to be vitamins or trace minerals. How does one test for these?

Thanks

[CarmieJo]

What are your water parameters? How often are you doing water changes and how much water are you changing? There are tests for trace elements like iodine and iron but I don't think that you can test for vitamins at all. IMO trace elements are kept in balance with regular water changes. I do soak all of my food in vitamins.

[goblin072]

According to my fish guy the parameters are all within normal limits. I will try to get the exact numbers. The water temp was lowered to 75-76. I will be taking it back up to 78 and see if that helps.

Water changes are 20 gallons per week. The Nitrates were zero last time (I can hardly believe zero as they never have been)

The tank is 300 gallons and not a really heavy bio load. All the fish are smallish except the neo tang and Hippo, they are a little larger than my hand. Most of the fish are 3 inches long.

The filtration is a 60 gallon sump full of bio balls and then a hot tub type filter.
Two pumps run it. Pump one pulls water from the sump to two spray hoses at the top and one pumps from the sump through a UV to the hot tub filter (I dont know what its called) to the chiller then back into the tank.

The other fish all look good just the clown is acting strange.

There is still .05 copper but thats been there for months.

[CarmieJo]

You have a FO tank, right? With bio-balls I would be surprised if your nitrates were 0 but in a FO tank with a reasonable bio-load you should have no trouble keeping them at a manageable level. I like to do a 10% water change each week but I really don't think that water quality is your problem. Why don't you pull your clown out and put her in a hospital tank until you are sure she is OK?

[goblin072]

I am setting up a hospital tank in my old 55 gallon tank. Do I really need to get in cycled before I put one fish in? Meaning can I just add water mix the salt and get the PH and other factors in order and not worry about the nitrogen cycle.

The cycle will take 2 weeks and well the fish might die first.

The clarkie clown has been hanging on for 4 weeks. She is sluggish and tends to remain in the corner swimming vertical (Nose up) She does eat but will not swim much to get it, we just drop the pellets so they land near her.

We do have a Fox Face in the tank, I suppose its possible it stung the clown. Or maybe she has something else (Not ich) that is not killed by copper.

We did clean a bunch of algae or cyno that was all over the reef, the water was stirred up full of it but the other fish were not affected. Sometime after that she started acting strange.

What other non copper treatments could be used?

[CarmieJo]

I would not use any other treatments in your display tank. You can set up your 55 and put the fish in there with out cycling. Here is an article Reefreaders - Quarantine Now! (http://www.reefreaders.com/content/view/22/1/) that should help you with setting up your hospital tank. You will have to test the water and use water changes to manage water quality. With one fish in a 55 this should not be a major chore. Get a sponge type filter and stick it in your sump overnight to get some bacteria growing on/in it, then put in in your hospital tank.

With such a non-specific problem I don't think that I would use any treatment. Instead I would feed a variety of foods soaked in vitamins and garlic. This will help strengthen the immune system and hopefully allow the clown to recover. A hospital tank also would allow your fish a place to relax and not worry about predators.

[goblin072]

The sick clown has been in my hospital tank for a few weeks now. I treated the tank with Rid Ich+
(M-green and Formalin) also put Malfix (in case of bacterial infection)

She is a 3 inch Clarki and acts as if she is blind. Always in the corner of the tank. Rarely swims in a normal horizontal (Dorsal fin up) position. She either swims up the corner or swims down it.

I have seen her swimming almost normal for about 5 minutes. I thought she was getting better. The next day she is back to the corner again.

I put sheet algae on a clip and she does eat it. If I put food in the tank, even soaked in garlic extreme she will not swim to it. I have to put it in front of her. I wonder if she got stung by the Foxface in my main tank.

Her color is good, no visible lesions on her body or mouth.

She won't get better nor will she die. Not sure what to do.

[CarmieJo]

Hmm. I think I would continue to leave her in QT and support her general health with a good, varied diet. What are you feeding her?

[goblin072]

Either purple or green seaweed sheets. I put them on a clip for her. She will eventually bump into it and graze. She will not go after food like she did a few months ago.

All the fish that were in the tank with her are all 100% perfect. Hippo, p. Clowns, hawk fish, naso tang, firefish etc. Either she ate something when the tank was under a huge algae attack (Happened after copper) or the large Foxface got her. The foxface has stung a few people feeding it already. When it puts its spines up they are daggers. Maybe she go stung but did not die. Now she is like a semi paralyzed fish. She just hangs in the corners either at the top or bottom. Rarely will see her in the middle of the water swimming.

I am slowly water changing out the Rid Ich+ and melafix.


Hmm. I think I would continue to leave her in QT and support her general health with a good, varied diet. What are you feeding her?

[CarmieJo]

I'm not sure how effective it would be but you could try soaking the seaweed in vitamins.

[Seahorsedreams]

Was your tank sick? When and why did you start using all those meds and additives?

[goblin072]

Long story short.

Jan 07 my 330 gallon had a sick (Sail fin) introduced. It was from someones home tank and not quarantined. It spread ich to the rest of the fish. Fish were dropping like flies. The FS people said nothing was wrong and ignored the spots. The FS people were fired and another group took over. They said copper was the only cure. They dumped copper in which did clean up the ich but caused another problem. C. Bacteria exponential growth. I was on vacation for 3 weeks in feb-march. When I got back the bacteria growth was astounding. After cleaning up the tank (lots of loose algae like debris stirred up. A few days later our Clarki started acting strange.

She would just hang in the corner at the bottom or something at the top. External inspection show normal coloring and maybe a slight bulge in her chin area. Maybe slight exopthalmos (popeye) but very slight to none.

I took her out a few weeks ago and treated the tank. (55 gallon). She is still alive but is not acting like she use to. Still likes those corners. Will not go after food. I put a veggie clip in and she must eat while I am not around, if not she would have starved to death.

I did the RiD-ICh+ and then Melafin ab solution.

Not sure what to do. She acts like she is blind. She will swim across the tank the bump into the glass, like she does not see it coming.

[CarmieJo]

At MACNA I listened to a talk on necropsy but a lot was about diagnosis of living fish too. The presenter Kelly Jedlicki mentioned that when clove oil is used for an anesthetic it can cause neurological damage with this kind of behavior. I thought about your fish right away but didn't get an opportunity to talk to her personally. She did state that some fish recover over time.

[goblin072]

I did not use any ab or clove oil products on the fish until after she starting acting strange.



At MACNA I listened to a talk on necropsy but a lot was about diagnosis of living fish too. The presenter Kelly Jedlicki mentioned that when clove oil is used for an anesthetic it can cause neurological damage with this kind of behavior. I thought about your fish right away but didn't get an opportunity to talk to her personally. She did state that some fish recover over time.

[CarmieJo]

I didn't know you had used clove oil, I was thinking that maybe the Cu could have caused neurological damage.

[goblin072]

Update on sick Clarki clown.

As you know my large Clarki has been sick for 8+ weeks. Today I think I know what it is.

POPEYE!

She has been treated with.
1. Copper for months (Finally got the copper out of my tank using cuprasorb + water changes)!!!!!!
2. Formalin and M.green
3. For past few days using API General Cure.

I am not sure but since the API general cure treatment one of her eyes has poped. I would say about 1/8 inch forward. Looks like a mutant fish know. She is still lively and is eating.

API GC has METRONIDAZOLE and PRAZIQUANTEL in it.

Not sure if it fixes popeye I will have to research. I hope I can save her.

[CarmieJo]

Here is the popeye link for WetWebMedia. PopeyeFAQs (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/popeyefaqs.htm) Once you read through that info there are several more popeye FAQ and topics in the nav box at the top to click through. If popeye is caused by an injury as is often the case it will heal much like a bruise heals. It can be caused by bacteria and I don't think that either of those meds will help since they are for parasites and anerobic bacteria.

[goblin072]

I did find this cause of Popeye and it did mention Copper treatments as a causative agent.

"Chemical treatments, including the use of copper compounds,
can be harsh on fish and have been reported to
precipitate Vibrio disease outbreaks."

This is under http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA03600.pdf

I think API General cure is more for parasites than it is for bacteria. I do not plan on culturing bacteria so I will have to assume its bacterial in nature and treat with tetracycline or similar Ab.

[CarmieJo]

I think I read at one time that e-mycin is the drug of choice but I would research that to make sure.

[goblin072]

Have you heard of people using oral tetracycline or other Abs to treat their fish?

Tetracycline and Cipro is free in my area. Basically you just need a prescription and the pharmacy gives it out free. Buying it at a pet store is like $15.00 for 8 pills.

I tried cipro but found it to be poorly soluble in saltwater.

I can get free emycin (Human form) also.

[CarmieJo]

I am not a vet or a doc but from my understanding when the same drug is used for both it really is the same drug. It is possible that when you buy the drug at the LFS you are getting a form of the drug that is used to make a solution for people. If you have a relationship established with a local veterinarian I'd ask them about this

[goblin072]

The meds are the same but the vehicle may be different. They come in suspensions, tablets etc.
I thought for fish they might dissolve better in the tanks solution vs pharmacy grade forms which are for taking orally.

I also noticed some fish meds have vitamins mixed in the tablet like niacin.

I just need to figure out how many Mgs per 10 gallons for each ab. Too high and it gets toxic.

[goblin072]

Well its finally over. The clown is dead. Either the popeye or the minicycline where too much.
Her breathing was about 120 per min. She sank vs floated. From start to finish it took about 2 months to die. The eye did not pop until the last week. Pretty strange on the outside she looked perfectly normal, good color etc. Internally she must have been a mess.

If I had a microscope and stains I would have attempted to see what took her out. Instead she got the swirly funeral with fireworks and a flush at the end.

[CarmieJo]

Aw, I'm sorry you lost your fish. Necropsy would have been interesting just so see what happened. I'm betting Cu overdose and that led to general immune system depression.

[goblin072]

I do think the Cu has something to do with it. My tank had live sand and when they dumped the CU in it killed the entire sand bed. The sand was basically full of dead micro invertabrates. This was food for all the new never before seen green cyano that spread like a blanket over the white sand. It would grow back in hours. It was so thick that the tank looked like the lights were off as the sand was not reflecting light.

I think that lead to low oxygen in the tank as the bacteria and algae must have been sucking up the O2. On top of that they had the skimmer off and the Nu-Clear filter had not been changed in 6 months and was full of debrie. So low flow, lack of o2, tons of algae plus CU. I am surprised the other fish survived it.

My tank is under better management now. I have all the CU out. Been doing 30 gallons per week water change. Running cuprasorb and carbon. The nuclear filter is cleaned, my sump is clean and the skimmer is working fine.

Now the tank looks great.

The agae did leave a white coral like residue. Some of the red algae was killed, if you look where it was growing its now white and almost coral like, it won't scrap off easily.