Hello I have a problem with my 330 gallon FO tank. The tank has a artist made insert that looks better than the real thing. Its a show tank that was good looking until a local FS store coppered it.

The tank had fish and invertebrates in it. The standard clowns, tangs, rasp and other non aggressive fish. The inverts where 3 large starfish, 2 cleaner, 1 fire shrimp w hermits and snails. Algae was never a big issue, just on the glass but not much every on the insert.

A fish was introduced from another's persons tank (It had ich) and it spread to the other fish. A local FS said the only way to cure the ich was to copper the tank. At the time I did not know much about treatments so I went with it. The good was the fish are ok. The bad is all the inverts were taken out to copper the tank. Also found out that the copper is not so easy to get out and I can't have my inverts back so I am pissed. Another downer is the effects of the copper + no inverts = the worst algae I have ever seen in any tank. The tank is now the ugliest 20k tank I have ever seen.

What I wish I did was keep the inverts in the tank and removed the fish to copper them. The ich would have died on its own without a host. then the fish could have been put back in (Ich free) and the algae would not have gotten out of control. The copper must have killed off some of the live sand and introduced a new niche for some weird colored (Pee green and dark red) algae. It came out of nowhere.



Here is the planned maintenance of our tank.

1. Continue water changes, and hope the copper goes down over time. Its at .05ppm
2. Spray outside with plastic cleaning spay and use a clean cotton cloth to wipe down
3. Use plastic or wood spatula tool for inside of tank surface. Go very slow near the sand so not to stir it up.
4. Put all invertebrates back in (50 snails, 25 hermits, starfish, fire and cleaning shrimp. (This should keep the algae down)
5. Keep Ca at a level to slow algae growth
6. Keep tank at low end of temp scale (Again will slow algae
7. Keep current low lumen lighting (Slows algae)
8. Any new fish will be coppered in a hospital tank (Can’t get ich if you don’t introduce it.

Does this sound ok?

Thanks

Your plan sounds like you are on the right track. A couple of suggestions:
1. You could also run Cuprisorb CupriSorb (http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/CupriSorb.html) to help remove the copper. I've not used it but I have heard that it is helpful.
2. I'd use vinegar and water. Plastic spray could be toxic.
7. Consider turning the lights off for a few days. The fish will be OK. Here is the Thread of the Month from May's Reefkeeping magazine. Reef Central Online Community - No Lights for 3 Days Every Couple of Months Works Wonders! (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1078532)
8. Here is an article Reefreaders - Quarantine Now! (http://www.reefreaders.com/content/view/22/1/) that may be helpful.

I'd also increase flow. This is often helpful in combating algae.

Thanks a ton. What I would like to know is how a person that I do not know and have paid no money to has better suggestions than people that are suppose to be professionals and have taken thousands of my dollars?

Its ok if you do not know that answer to that one but thanks a million for your suggestions on lights off for 3 days and the copper remover. Any other suggestions are welcome.!

Ok now my modified plan. Could someone please fill in the blanks for the proper water balances for a FO tank of 330 gallons + snails starfish and shrimp.

1. Continue water changes, and hope the copper goes down over time. Its at .05ppm
2. Spray outside with plastic cleaning spay and use a clean cotton cloth to wipe down
3. Use plastic or wood spatula tool for inside of tank surface. Go very slow near the sand so not to stir it up. (All done to keep scratches down)
4. Put all invertebrates back in (50 snails, 25 hermits, starfish, fire and cleaning shrimp. (This should keep the algae down)
5. Keep Ca at a level to slow algae growth
6. Keep tank at low end of temp scale (Again will slow algae
7. Keep current low lumen lighting (Slows algae)
8. Any new fish will be coppered in a hospital tank (Can’t get ich if you don’t introduce it.
9. CupriSorb to get rid of copper faster
10. Keep lights off over weekend so not to grow unwanted algae.

I saw this in a post here.

Keep up YOUR water parameters
Sg 1.026
Ca 410 (I heard 480 to keep algae low)
Mg 1300
Alk 8.5
NH3 (Nitrites) 0
Nitrates (under 50)
Po4 0
Ph 8.1
K+ 400
Temp 77

Are there any other parameters that are missing but should be known?

Thanks!

We love the hobby!

You will want to lower your nitrates. Nitrogen is fertilizer! Even in a FO tank you should shoot for nitrates <10. The water changes will lower this.

What are you using for filtration?

I don't know if I'd copper the hospital tank. Some fish are very sensitive to copper. Best thing to do in my opinion is to just quarantine them for a month and keep a close eye on them. If they don't show any sign of ich in that amount of time, then most likely they don't have ich. My blue hippo tang used to have ich and just could not get rid of it. I put all my fish in hyposalinity (1.009) for 6 weeks. At that point I KNEW my tank had no ich and my fish showed no signs of ich. That was 4 months ago, and even my blue hippo has showed NO sign of ich. Whew!

Hi Zooid and :welcome: to TR.

thanks:) I've seen you post over at Project DIBS :)

I have the same name on all the forums that I am on but my main sites are TR and DIBS.

Thanks Zooid. The ich problem was such as mess that I never want to deal with it again. I thought if you kept the levels low enough the fish would be ok. I had a hippo, clowns, pearl jawfish, wrasps, darts, firefish and they all survived.

I just put some snails in (Copper still .05) and I think some died. I used them as a canary in a coal mine. I don't want to put the starfish back in.

Anyone know what amount will not kill starfish (Yes I know ZERO) but maybe I can't get it to zero but very low.

If I were to use Hyposalinity would I have been able to keep my starfish and shrimp in? Can they take that type of ich treatment? Not a bad option if it removes ich. Sounds better than (Nuke em) copper treatment.


I don't know if I'd copper the hospital tank. Some fish are very sensitive to copper. Best thing to do in my opinion is to just quarantine them for a month and keep a close eye on them. If they don't show any sign of ich in that amount of time, then most likely they don't have ich. My blue hippo tang used to have ich and just could not get rid of it. I put all my fish in hyposalinity (1.009) for 6 weeks. At that point I KNEW my tank had no ich and my fish showed no signs of ich. That was 4 months ago, and even my blue hippo has showed NO sign of ich. Whew!

in that size tank id put a 75 gal fuge under it with alot of macro:wow:

If I were to use Hyposalinity would I have been able to keep my starfish and shrimp in? Can they take that type of ich treatment? Not a bad option if it removes ich. Sounds better than (Nuke em) copper treatment.

No, invertebrates cannot handle hypo. Only fish, not even live rock because live rock has invertebrates in/on it.
Sorry it took so long to answer.

i mean put a 75 gal tank(refugium) under display tank with a lot of macro algae that has nuttin to do with your inverts just a giant nitrate/phosphate sponge and other stuff to

Rock

i use ich attack in my reef and safe for all etc...inverts/coral

its all organic and has worked for me

The tank had fish and invertebrates in it. The standard clowns, tangs, rasp and other non aggressive fish. The inverts where 3 large starfish, 2 cleaner, 1 fire shrimp w hermits and snails. Algae was never a big issue, just on the glass but not much every on the insert.

A fish was introduced from another's persons tank (It had ich) and it spread to the other fish. A local FS said the only way to cure the ich was to copper the tank.
Thanks

There are a lot of ways to treat Ich. for future reference ... i like the hyposalinity option. all you have to do is slowly lower the salinity to 1.009 for 3 - 6 weeks and it will die off. then slowly raise the salinity back to normal. it is best to do this in a hospital tank though, for the reasons stated above.

Thanks for the info. I am learning that the local FS should read some of these messages bases. Many things I have learned here do not seem to be common knowledge among FS. I guess just because you sell fish does not mean you know all the tricks of the trade.

For freshwater I learned the fishless cycle using house hold ammonia. It actually worked like a charm. I don't think I have met anyone at a FS that had heard of it.

LFS's are in business to make money, 90% of them could care less if the animal lives or dies, as long as it has been sold.

WE, on the other hand, actually CARE what happens to the animals AFTER they are bought. that is why we preach about not buying them on an impulse, but place them on hold at the LFS (if you can), and research them BEFORE buying them. you can always take the "hold" off of them, but you cant bring them back to life.

LFS's are in business to make money, 90% of them could care less if the animal lives or dies, as long as it has been sold.


Having worked at three aquarium stores, I have to agree with that statement -to a degree. I was once dressed down for telling a customer I wouldn't buy our purple tang because it's stomach was visibly pinched -to me. The buyer hadn't noticed, and the store owner let me know in no uncertain terms that if they didn't mail back the tail from the dead animal upon arrival, they had to eat the cost. So many fishes came in that looked like dying animals to me.
But every LFS is one or two slow months away from losing their business. It's our job as consumers to learn to pick healthy specimens. Sadly, that comes from bad experiences. For years, I always picked the whitest pink tipped anemones. If they made it, they darkened up in my tank every time. And I learned from that, just like I learned about ribbon eels, Moorish Idols, and mandarin gobies (at the time). That's what is so great about forums like this! :agree:

I also think that it depends on the store. I would not buy livestock at a chain store or trust their advice. There are a few people who work there that know what they are doing but most don't. I walked into one of the chain stores and they had an imperator angel that looked really sick, poor color, pinched belly and with a huge fungal growth on the tail. I went over and told the manager thinking that obviously this had been overlooked. He told me that he know and was treating the fish. What? I don't care if you prophetically treat the sales tanks this fish was sick and did not belong in front of the public! And we have all heard the horror stories of a nemo put in a nano that was set up the day they bought the fish!

We are fortunate to have some really excellent LFS here but the people I bought my nano from had received terrible advice from one of the stores that I think is pretty good and were getting out of the hobby. Maybe it was just one bad employee? I absolutely agree that it is up to us as consumers to do our research and be knowledgeable.

old man that owns my LFS is good on that part and puts a DO NOT SELL LABEL on tanks with problem fish.

on other hand he is old fashioned and believes they are animals from the ocean and cannot predict their attitude or health in 1 week

whick i somewhat agree attitude that is

but if you do have a death he will give you no questions asked the same species back

of course with a sample of your water

Rob

^^Is that a haiku?