Monterey Beach Sand..

[DJGonzo69]

I'm in the process of doing a 40gal project & was looking at my LFS & saw a 50lb bag of Monterey Beach Sand. Can I use this sand & mix some Live Sand with it? Will it be ok?

TIA,
John

[JustDavidP]

Um... if I remember correctly, Monterey Beach Sand is pretty coarse correct? It contains shell fragments and such? You may not want to use it if it becomes a detritus trap! If it is fine, and you can take out any large objects..it MAY be useful...but..

I also seem to remember that the make up of sand in that area is very high is silicates. Dunno...but I'm working off my old memory here (I ran back east after my first earthquake). I use ONLY calcium carbonate based sands myself. Silicates MAY help cause unwanted blooms of diatoms etc.

Dave

[DJGonzo69]

Dave,
It's very fine sand & not crushed coral. How do I find out if it's high in silicates? I thought silicates is a natural part of sand? I've seen in other threads that they use some type of play sand that you can get at a hardware store?

-John

[JustDavidP]

Honestly John...I don't have much experience with that specific product. However, I have used "like" products in my Land Hermit Crab tanks. If it is fine sand, then 1/2 of my concerns have gone away :) However, I'd do a 'google' or something and do more research about silicates.

Then again, I'm a worry wart. Some of the "pros" have said that you have as much a chance of the silicates leeching from your sand as you do from your glass in the tank. Dunno... what I do know is that I'm a fan of the buffering qualities of calcium based sands and a fan of keeping ANYTHING questionable, out of my tanks.

Dave

[DJGonzo69]

No worries..thanks for the input. I'll look around the forums to see what is a good mix for non live sand & live sand for my tank.

[Rob]

using beach sand aside, which i cant speak to...
you can mix mostly non live sand with a few pounds of LS.. just enough o get everything seeded.

in my case, actually used ALL play sand, and the only "seeding" was done by the LR i added to the tank.

[CarmieJo]

You might want to read through this HUGE thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26193

[leitefrog]

speaking of beach sand, could you use sand from the beach? My parents have a place in York Maine, and I could get a few bucket fulls of sand right out of the ocean.

[JustDavidP]

I'd not do that..myself. If you spend any time on that beach, you'll notice lots of hazzards in that sand.

First of all, you have the refuse that everyone tosses onto the beach. Yeah...it happens and it sucks but not everybody has the environment in mind. Then, on most beaches, every morning during the 'season' the DPW will rake the sands with a tractor or some other method. They do nothing more than remove the large objects (bottles, bags etc.), but at the same time, bury the cigarette butts and other smaller nasties.

From there, you need to remember that the beach sand ends up as part of the natural filtration of that area. Have you ever walked a beach after a windy storm? Noticed the brown foam on the ebb line? That's nothing more or less than skimmate...the same you'd see in your skimmer. It floats to shore, settles on the sand and then diffuses into the sand. Therefore, that sand is Chock Full o' goo! High nitrate, phosphate etc.

Next, take into consideration the boat traffic. Especially up at York Beach in ME! I've been there and have seen 'slicks' on the water, close to shore. Nasty.

Okay...with all that aside, there are others who have used beach sand. However, they typically sterilize it. Some bake it in ovens, Others use bleaches etc. But they don't just use it raw. THIS MAY be different in real isolated, tropical areas where colder weather, and other issues keep the biological process going 12 months a year. Believe you me, that natural cleaning and such is slower up here in the North East during the colder months.

Keep in mind that the pods, worms and other natural flora and fauna on your beaches up there do NOT fare well in a tropical tank. Even if they did, you'd likely take your chances on introduction of pathogens, or parasites etc.

Okay... this could go on forever, but I also want to mention that the sand up in that neck o' the woods is typically pulverized quartz, feldspar, and Biotite containing orthoclase or microcline etc. This is because the sands up there are a result of heavy processing of granite, the most abundant rock composition in the terra firma of New England. This sand is different than the aragonite based sands of the warmer climates. The introduction of these other elements, to include ash and silicates, could cause you problems by assisting in the growth of nusiance algaes and at a minimum does not have the same buffering qualities as the calcium/aragonite/carbonate sands.

Did I ramble on too long here?

Dave

[leitefrog]

That's excellent advice Dave, thanks. I actually like long rambling answers. I'm wierd like that. :-)

[DJGonzo69]

Just from this forum I started it really opened up my eyes on the "sand" that we use in our tanks. From the data I got from Rob & Dave the "sand" in our tanks is not really sand. It's actually aragonite based. Since sand is silica based which we do not want in out tanks I would get funny looks when I ask for Silica free sand. They would come back & ask me "what do you think sand is made from". Since I live in the Silicone Valley I always thought the sand in Marine tanks were harvested from beaches or in the ocean. Now it all makes sense.

[JustDavidP]

Whoah whoah whoah....

The sand we use in our tanks often IS harvested from coastal areas. However, that doesn't mean that ALL is harvested from EXISTING ocean areas. Some is collected in land locked areas. Others from areas that once were covered in ocean.

The real dealio is the 'composition' of said sand. Again, New England, being a very mineral rich area and having been carved by glaciers and such has a very different 'make up' in the sand, earth etc. than does Florida, and other places closer to the equator.

Let me pull some of my notes from my earth science files.. BRB

D

[gwen_o_lyn]

Most the sand in my nano came from Orient Beach- doh!!
How can sand from a nude beach be that bad!??! :mrgreen:

[JustDavidP]

Ya know what.. my notes are almost useless :) Keeping in mind that sand actually "migrates", my notes are out of date. They were from *whispering* 1986 ;) and believe it or not, just mere miles can make a difference in composition of sand.

But.. in a nutshell...

Coastal sands are nothing more than a result of erosion processes that happen everywhere, every day. With that in mind, picture yourself sitting on a bluff on St. Thomas. (I can picture that.. oh I want to be there) Look at the "land" below you. What do you see? You probably see lots of aragonite based rocks, various seashells etc. Now, plug in the convergence and divergence activities of the waves meeting that land. That total energy, over time, literally pulverizes that matter and viola, you have an aragonite based sand! Let it sit longer, and you have a finer version thereof. The Sugar fine products you all love to use!

Now.. Jump (just a lil) to the Islands of Hawaii.. and get thee to a bluff. What do you see there? Typically, you'd see some lighter colored materials and LOTS of dark, volcanic (igneous) materials. Obviously, the composition of this material will differ greatly from that of the St. Somewheres. When you get the wave energies here, you break down this matter into a volcaniclastic sand. Do a "google" on Punaluu beach or any other "black sand" beach on the islands and you will see the results.

What you have in New England, is another type of media alltogether...consisting of quartz, mica, feldspar, and hornblende (all found within granite). Why? Look at our coastline? The Pilgrims did not get off of the boat at Plymouth Rock and step onto a lump of Jade. They made landfall at an area dominated by large, granite boulders. Again, over time, those rocky formations are broken down to the smallest elements.

Okay... Now..take all of that and toss it...because you also need to keep in mind that even within one region, you can have black sand beaches, yellow and beige sand beaches etc. I frequent Falmouth, MA which is, in fact, a quartz based sandy area. However, on the West side, where Buzzards Bay is, there is a beautiful white sand beach called Old Silver Beach. It was constructed, over time, by the same elements, but is a finer quality. See, the lighter, finer, quartz based sands wash further inland and due to the smaller particle size etc, have different refraction properties and that, coupled with additional trace elements (being in a more sheltered area containing limestone etc.) makes the sand look whiter than it's larger, bretheren deeper out in the waters.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is...if you are creating a system that you want to replicate Hawaii...then find the appropriate substrate. If you are trying to emulate a reef zone in the Caribbean..then get your typical aragonite sands. If you are going for a New England Fish Only...then just buy rubble :) Our sand is for the birds.

Final note... also keep in mind, due to storm activity and natural erosion, many communities will TRUCK in sand. In that case, who knows what the heck is in it..or where it came from.

Dave

[JustDavidP]

So...as far as 'replication' goes, Gwen has her own lil' adult beach in her home :rolleyes:

[gwen_o_lyn]

So...as far as 'replication' goes, Gwen has her own lil' adult beach in her home :rolleyes:

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif ha ha David!! funny!!

Nice post too- all this vacation talk and scuba talk really makes me wanna get outta the office NOW!! lol I got 9 more months til my next cruise- that seems like FOREVER!! ahhhh

vacation, vacation, vacation!! I live for vacation. And you wonder why I have a reef tank?? It's my mini venture into vacation mode.

[DJGonzo69]

Heck..I'm going to Maui!!! I miss that place. Now I'll have to see if my in-laws will let me use thier points for the time share condo..LOL

...So Dave the main point is to still stay away from silica based sands right? So far when I go to HD etc most of their playsand is composed of 82% silica.

[JustDavidP]

Actually, I would be wrong (I guess) if I said to stay away from silica sand. Others, who are brighter than I and have been in the hobby for some time, say that silica based sands will NOT cause problems with your systems. They do agree, however, that they do little to nothing to help buffer your system. But...word on the street is that your water and the micro life therein is just as able to steal silicates from the aquarium glass, as they are able to utlize silicates in the sand.

Again, I'm just your ordinary average hobbyist, trying to figure out all of this with you. I'm not an expert at anything (except for Industrial/DoD security matters) I'm always a newbie...with my own opinions. I just happen to opt to stay away from silica based sand.

Heck.. how many times have we ALL eaten something that was supposed to be GOOD for us, only to find out it does nothing to reduce...cancer for instance, but to the opposite, may even find years later that that same food can cause cancer :) Who ARE the experts out there? In any field for that matter....B'Cause they ALL seem to disagree on things from time to time.

Dave

[JustDavidP]

BTW....HD and others have "white play sands" that are silica based. There are others that are aragonite based.

D

[DJGonzo69]

Yes it is true about things that the experts say to use & later on find out that it's really bad. It's very apparent in the medical / Health field.
As for our hobby I'd probably stay on the safe side & use aragonite based substrate since it helps in buffering & it's the safer way to go. I want to make sure that the new tank I'm setting up will have the least problems to encounter. Thanks for all the info.

[Rob]

well i'm going to jump in late here and say support what Daves saying..
sand is sand, but what we are looking for is aragonite sand.. or at least that is the preferred..
it is also what i recommend.. i recommend it more for its calcium buffering properties than its lack of silica, but that is a big plus to in many eyes...

now what do i use you may ask.. well actually i have over 200 Lbs of sterilized regular white play sand from a local hardware store... and you all have seen many images of my tank...

[lucedillo]

Ok but can't tell the difference between aragonite and silica base sand how am I going to do so, somebody told me the way to check if it argonite pur some vinigar on it and if it fizes it is argonite is that right. And how do you sterilize the sand

[Rob]

most aragonite sand will state it on the bag, as its usually a selling point.
i have also heard about the vinegar, but never tried it personally, so i can speak to that...

as far as sanitizing it, you can boil it or bleach it.

[Reefbaby]

Regardless.....love the in-depth, scientific explanations Dave!!!