Just tested Calcium for first time....low

[pammy]

Hi All. My tank has been up and running for about 5 weeks. Never saw a cycle (fully cured live rock). I just bought a Calcium test, and tested for the first time today. It was 340. I only have a couple corals at the moment (Green Mushrooms, Small Armor of Gods zoo, 3" Leather, 3 other very small zoos).

I'm using Tropic Marin (regular) salt

The rest of my parameters are:
Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 2.5, salinity 1.025, PH 8.3, Temp 81, Phosphates .1 or .2 ...hard to tell which but phosphates had been 0 until today. Just added two fish and started feeding two days ago)

Don't have a Magnesium test yet.

Should I start using a additive to bring up the Calcium, or not worry until I start adding more corals? I'm not planning on getting a calcium reactor. What is the easiest safest way to do bring the calc up? (Lime water, Kalkwasser etc?) . I do have an auto top-off, can the additive be added when I fill up my top-off resevoir without having to have an on-going drip?

Should I worry about my phosphates being at .1 or .2 ? It has been 0 up until now. Just added my first 2 fish and started feeding two days ago. (enriched frozen brine srimp, and just a couple formula 1 pellets). I'm due for a 10% water change, but was thinking of skipping it this week to give the new fish time to adjust. I do have a small clump of chaeto in my small refugium built into the sump, but I don't know if that's enough to be helpful. It's a ball about 3" in diameter.

Thanks!
Pam

[CarmieJo]

Hi Pam,

Your softies don't have a high Ca demand so you should be OK until you start to add stony corals or clams. To raise Ca you want to use a 2 part additive or if your alk is fine a Ca additive. Kalk is usually used for maintaing Ca not raising it. I drip mine in a liter of water over the course of an evening. I don't have an ATO but it seems to me that you would be using the same amount of kalk, perhaps over the same period of time but that you'd be adding a bigger dose of it each time the pump cycles on.

I'd go ahead and do your water change. Just make sure that you match parameters.

Also, I'd get a QT tank and use it for all new critters. It sounds like your LFS is great but they could still get a sick fish in. If you would have had this with the first possum wrasse you may have been able to observe him and find out what was up.

[pammy]

Thanks Carmie. Any 2 part additive better than the others?
I did do my weekly 10% waterchange last night. (they're getting easier now). I'll test the Calcium and Alk tonight.

Yes, a QT is definitely on my to do list. I knew I was taking a chance, but since it was my first two fish, and I only have a couple corals and no shrimp, I took it. Need to start with putting a sponge in my sump I guess.

Thanks!
Pam


Hi Pam,

Your softies don't have a high Ca demand so you should be OK until you start to add stony corals or clams. To raise Ca you want to use a 2 part additive or if your alk is fine a Ca additive. Kalk is usually used for maintaing Ca not raising it. I drip mine in a liter of water over the course of an evening. I don't have an ATO but it seems to me that you would be using the same amount of kalk, perhaps over the same period of time but that you'd be adding a bigger dose of it each time the pump cycles on.

I'd go ahead and do your water change. Just make sure that you match parameters.

Also, I'd get a QT tank and use it for all new critters. It sounds like your LFS is great but they could still get a sick fish in. If you would have had this with the first possum wrasse you may have been able to observe him and find out what was up.

[pammy]

I did a 10% waterchange last night, and measured my Calcium again today. It had only been a week since the last 10% water change. Before the water change, I measured at 340 for Calcium, and today after the waterchange that I did last night, I'm at 400. Is it more likely that the water change brought up the calcium that much, or that I goofed on the test yesterday (first time testing for calcium). I use Tropic Marin Regular salt, and don't add any additives. Today, I tested using the low resolution method (salifert test kit) and yesterday, I tested the regular way. Do you find either way more accurate with the Salifert test kit? I figured with less water, it would be easier to see the color change from pink to blue. I feel better with a reading of 400 ! :)

Phosphate is identical before and after waterchange. It's either .1 or .2 ....hard to tell which shade the color is.

Thanks!
Pam

[CarmieJo]

Hey Pam,

I don't think the water change could have raised your Ca that much. I seem to recall reading that Tropic Marin has a Ca level of about 375. If that is so then it would be impossible to raise the Ca to 400. Even if the Ca in the Tropic Marin is 450 it would be impossible to raise Ca from 340 to 400 with a 10% water change.

[wwest]

I would go ahead and start dosing, You'll have to at some point and this way you can get the hang of it before the time comes. I start dosing and testing for calcium as soon as i get a tank up and going. Calcium is a big contributor to coraline algae among other things.

[CarmieJo]

Thanks Carmie. Any 2 part additive better than the others?



There are several good additives on the market. Oceans Blend (http://www.theculturedreef.com/additives.htm)is good because it has Mg. This is good because Mg needs to be available in the right proportion to Ca in order to keep your Ca up. If you use one of the other brands you will need to dose Mg. You can also make your own with this recipe: An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com (http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php) In my experience DowFlake can be hard to find, if the hardware doesn't have it try a janitorial supply place.

[bubbletip]

Hey Pam,

Good to see your posts once again Carmie & Wes...

I think I may have an option for a 3 part additive that I find incredibly consistent in a small system (10g - 75 g tanks). E.S.V. B-Ionic Pt 1. Alkalinity, pt 2. Calcium, and for the last year pt 3 B-Ionic Magnesium all liquid form.

Prior to building my 30g cube I used the 2 part system on my 65g unsuccessfully. I could rarely get over 380ppm. I was keeping soft corals and some LPS just fine. SPS was not in the cards. It was pretyy frustrating and i was uneducated because twelve years ago there was not near the info. we get today. Thanks for that Rob :showoff: ... a huge weight in the hobby. My main education to get me into SPS was magnesium."

In a small system where a minimal amount of these particular E.S.V. products can safely and consistently keep your tank at 420-450 daily with minimal effort is pretty amazing. To me it is worth the cost to replace these jugs 2x a year for my 30g tank that comes out about $120.

I am not saying this is the only way to do things. If anyone remembers my posts I obviously am only speaking from my own experience and that of reefkeepers using the same method.

O.K. Now it is very possible in anyone's situation using their own hands to dose the tank that may have over time and when not checking Ca and ALk levels regularly find yourself aty 2.5meq but 320-380 Ca. It happens to everyone and what do you do because you don't want to be adding extra 2 part solution to get there in a couple days. Not a good idea. I tried it with my 65G many years ago as a reactive panic to a very easy fix.

First of all, by using B-Ionic Magnesium(my mag readily stays at 1320-1380) you will not run into this problem as often as the magnesium really does stabalize the CA, even with stocked SPS sucking Calcium up by the minute. You can literally add what your corals are taking in daily to bring you back to where you want to be. This is really the best way to do things with any 2-part solution in my opiion. Everyone's coral stock is different meaning everyone's tank inhabitants are taking up different amounts of calcium and no bottle can give you the correct figure. My suggestion would be to test daily for a week and then every other day to see for yourself what "your" tank is usung up in Calcium. You are calibrating yourself how much 2 part solution to add, how often and what time of day(that is for another discussion ).

So back to where we were talkign about rebounding from a severe Calcium drop when using 2 part solution. You can drip Kalk(if you are comfortable and do it slowly). What I have been doing is using E.S.V. Calcium Chloride in small amounts over 3or 4 days. I have had this huge canister of E.S.V. Calcium Chloride for a year and have hardly used it. It should be used rarely and will if you follow this system. Works like a charm and then you have many months of stable Calcium using the rest of the E.S.V. system. I really sound like a representative of E.S.V. don't I. Far from it. Just a lifelong aqaurist that loves a product that really works. :cool: So seriuosly though, just a tsp of Calcium chloride each day for 4 days will bring my 30g tank back from 360 to 450 no problem. What I do is use a 1400ml(i think) Kent Marine Aquadose and drip this miniscule amount of Ca chloride with RO/DI on a slow drip each day. This is a very safe and my recommended way to do this. Hopefully you agree with me Rob:master:

If you have any trouble with 2 part systems and trying to figure out balanced Alk, PH, Ca, and Mag, I recommend sincerely this system I have been using for the past year. Now remember I said in the beginning up to a 75g tank. I have not tried this on a large system 150-200gallon so will not pretend to know what kind of Calcium those monster SPS can suck up :wow: I would imagine that type of use would be much more costly to go with a 2 part system. Happy Kalking...

I am glad to be back on the forum. Thanks Rob for still being here:rolleyes:

Pam if you have any questions, I would be more than happy to answer. I will be surfing hte forums as a 120gallon tank is in my future. :D

[CarmieJo]

Hi Jim,

Good to see you back.

I absolutely agree that low Mg will absolutely impact your ability to keep you Ca up. You can speculate that a Ca level that does not increase even though you are dosing is caused by a Mg deficiency but (singing a familiar song) you still should never dose what you don't test for.

[pammy]

Hi Bubbletip. Thank you for the time you put into your post. Very interesting and definitely an option that I'll look into . For now, I only have a couple soft corals, so I'm not going to dose anything until I start adding more corals that require the calcium. Is there a way to dose without setting up a drip? (like adding 1/4 tsp once a day or something like that??)

Thanks, Pam

[bubbletip]

Actually Pam when I dose I use a 1 oz med cup that I dose 15cc of each 2 part every other day. Once a week I am dosing 45cc of B-Ionic Magnesium to bring mag back up. The Calcium Chloride is what I use for the drip(Kent Aquadose) and I do this very rarely as the 3 parts that I use really stabalize the Calcium & Alakalinity. Even if you are doing softies, there is nothing wrong with bringing your calcium where it needs to be. This is important not only for desirable corraline algae but invertabrates as well. If you are already using a 2 part solution I would still recommend some form of magnesium ion to not get such big swings in Alk and CA. Carmie is absolutely correct in mentioning that levels should be tested regularly especially when figuring out the amount to dose. Go slowly. Remember that when adding new corals, you may need to dose a bit more but test to see here you are at.

The magnesium is the key. What is also good about E.S.V. is that you are also adding small amounts of trace minerals as well, which if anyone knows how I feel about this topic, would know I fell it is essential. If it is in seawater, it makes sense to me that we should be including these trace minerals in one way or another. Either through regular water changes, through the E.S.V. 2 part(or any other 2 part that includes trace minerals), or my favorite, "Reef Solution." I won't bore you with details on Reef Solution now but you may want to check my early posts to read about it. I have used it safely for almost twelve years now and live by this product. Many would disagree this is necessary. All I know is my fish of eleven years and corals always retain their beautiful colors. Last thing about using E.S.V., Chemicals(ions) I would imagine do not always work in the same way especially when assembled by different manufacturers. I feel safe using E.S.V. products as the chemists I am sure know their products work together. You may be just fine mixing and matching the same ions from different manufacturers. I am just giving my experience that works for me.

So to answer your question in short, if using a 2 part solution, you really need the magnesium to get to where you want to be.

Lastly, what size tank do you have?

[lReef lKeeper]

I'm using Tropic Marin (regular) salt


Thanks!
Pam

can i suggest a salt change ?? lol

Tropic Marin was one of the worst in a study done by Eric Borneman. FWIW ... i use middle of the road Red Sea salt and have NEVER had a problem. it was in the middle of the road on everything that he tested the salts for. my LFS also uses Red Sea, and you should see some of the SPS's that they have !! just my $.02.

[bubbletip]

Hey ReefKeeper,

Do you have nay idea where you can get the final information about Eric's salt study? I have been looking everywhere to no avail. I can find the first two parts but not the third. I know him and Kim Lowe were giving a presentation at MACNA last year on their results.

[lReef lKeeper]

the last time i talked to him they were still working on the final details, and he said that it could be a while. i will get in touch with him and see if they have been released yet. i will post a link to them here if they have been.

[bubbletip]

Thank you kindly Bobby:agree:

can't wait to see the results...

[lReef lKeeper]

same here Jim. he said he would let me know when they were released, that was MONTHS ago though. he usually gets back to me within a day or two. i will post when he does.

[pammy]

Hi ReefKeeper. I was going to ask on this forum which salt has the higher calcium than Tropic Marin, because if I can help it, I'd prefer not to dose my tank with Calcium and Magnesium. I'd like to keep this tank as simple as possible. I was told by my LFS and another LFS, that Tropic Marin was the best salt, but maybe they just make the most profit on it??? I just bought a
Magnesium Test kit and tested tonight, and my Magnesium is at 1200.
Calcium has been ranging between 320 and 340. PH stays pretty steady at about 8.15. Alk is 2.8 . All other parameters in my tank are good. (Nitrates, Nitrites and Ammonia are 0. Phosphates are less than .1) I have only soft corals right now, so I haven't dosed anything at all yet. (zoos, mushrooms, leather, hammer). All corals look great and are growing. I found a salt study, not sure if this is the one you're talking about, and the Tropic Marin seems to be middle of the road for Calcium. So for those of you reading, would you stick with the Tropic Marin if you were me and not dose, or stick with TM and dose....or switch salts? I have about 1/2 bucket left of the TM. Here are the links for the salt stucy.
Thanks! Pam

Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine - Feature Article: Inland Reef Aquaria Salt Study, Part I (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/11/aafeature1)

Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine - Feature Article: Inland Reef Aquaria Salt Study Part II (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/12/aafeature1#h3)





can i suggest a salt change ?? lol

Tropic Marin was one of the worst in a study done by Eric Borneman. FWIW ... i use middle of the road Red Sea salt and have NEVER had a problem. it was in the middle of the road on everything that he tested the salts for. my LFS also uses Red Sea, and you should see some of the SPS's that they have !! just my $.02.

[CarmieJo]

If you don't want to keep stony corals you don't need to worry about a higher Ca level. If you want to add some stony corals and don't want to dose I would go with a "reef" salt like Reef Crystals (made by IO), Red Sea Coral Pro or Seachem Reef Salt. I usually dose because I think it is more economical. I won a box of Reef Crystals at a raffle but (besides the the fact that it was higher in Ca) didn't see any difference in my tank. I've used IO and Red Sea Salt.

[wwest]

I have to disagree with Carmie on this one, I say if you want to dose or get your calcium up then go for it. There are other reasons to have a good Ca level other than keeping stony Corals. Coraline algae and snails to name a few. Not to mention later down the road Pam might want a nice Birds nest or a Monti cap. If she starts dosing and watching now it will be no big chore later.

But like i have said before. I dose and test everything from the get go and i highly recommend it for people that think there new hobby might grow into an obsession. Also Pam said she wants it to be as easy as possible, well getting a routine and knowledge of something now might save time later.

I vote for Reef Crystals :)

I use Reef Crystals and then dose with the 1 part Reef Calcium by Seachem.

[CarmieJo]

I always figure this hobby is expensive enough without dosing what you don't really need. I am admittedly frugal and like to know that I am getting a bang for my buck. :)

Since there are no stony corals in my nano the Ca is 360, what it comes out of the Red Sea Salt bucket at. After being moved less than a month ago the coralline is starting to cover the newly exposed pieces of LR and I'm scraping it off the glass. I've seen molts from 2 hermits and ectoskeleton development is another process takes Ca. I haven't moved any DIBS turbos over and haven't seen any collonistas but there are 2 big turbos and 1 astera that came with the tank and now I am seeing limpets of various sizes. I followed this same routine until I was ready to add my first stony coral to my corner tank. Then I dosed to get my Ca up to 400 before adding a coral. I continued to boost it to the 430 I keep it at today. I too test for everything I dose.

I think that this shows once again that there is no one right way to a successful aquarium.

[pammy]

Thank you Carmie and WWest. I may give Reef Crystals a shot when I'm done with my Tropic Marin and see if it makes a difference.
Do either of you know what the Calcium measures after you mix it up before adding it to your tank with the Reef Crystals? Haven't thought to test with the Tropic Marin, but will on my next water change.

Thanks, Pam

[CarmieJo]

I don't remember what it mixed up at. Sorry. :( Wes probably knows though.