Rob:
I have now listened to all of your poacasts. I'm a life long hobbyist, who switched to saltwater in 2002. After 39 years in freshwater, I find saltwater to be far more rewarding and a challenge that I can NEVER conquer in one lifetime! Dr. Ron Shimmek's work on the DSB was what sold me on trying saltwater. The DSB seemd such a natural way to operate a saltwater reef. After he decided his original position was flawed, and the DSB COULD be lying in wait to dump phosphates, heavy metals, etc. at will into my tank and kill everything, many people moved to barebottomed systems. The podcasts focus VERY favorably on the DSB......What are your thoughts on barebottomed systems? Could you please do a pros/cons of each system and why you feel the way to do?

Robs out back scrubing the deck after a big night of drinks with the fosters girls, it kinda got delightfully messy, so i'll grab the microphone for just a sec & say this......... i like milk.....strawberry milk............................:D shaken, not stired!

worlds quickest explo, DSB nitrate potentials offset eventual deposits.america is bias to DSB.

BB besides being one of my nickname can give greater flow freedoms, expanded realestate & a funky looking floor limited by your own imagination.

Now if you'll excuse me, a the crappy show called south park is on.


*oyeee rob, you missed a spot*

Umm......lol Fond memories of suggestions the deeper the better.Sandbeds.

People are successful with both systems. I like the look of a DSB and am willing to put the work into maintaining it.

I have been in this hobby for a very long time and what I have observed is that different tank bottoms tend to change every few years and sooner or later it always comes around in a full circle.

What I can tell you is that a DSB does require maintenance but will allow you to keep many more varieties of reef inhabitants.

Yeah, & with all those extra livestock dropping their spoils of war into your bed, who needs to worry about heavy element build-ups:sick: Revolution, like trends that dont know how to die. examples being Nuff Nuffs that think fluffy ugboots are cool to wear in public. you might as well be kicking a couple sheep in ass with both feet & never touch the ground again!:rotfl:

the are favored towards DSB only becuse thats my prefered system.. not that its better in anyway, just i beleive its best for my setup.

some of the pros and cons have been talked about here, and most of the rest i explained in the following shows
http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/podcast-episodes/188-substrates-pt1-podcast-episode-27-a.html
http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/podcast-episodes/215-substrates-pt2-podcast-episode-28-a.html

Thanks Rob! I just wondered where you came down on this one. I have heard the podcasts you listed.......VERY good stuff! If you have looked at any of the pictures I have posted....I'm with you! DSB all of the way! That is MY preference.

I prefer BB. Knowing that I can feed my tank anything and not have to worry about sand absorbing everything nook and cranny is wonderful. If you like to rearrange the furniture every now and then like I do, you don't have to worry about disturbing the bed. Also sand beds tend to get messy and keeping a fine sugar bed going is difficult. Pretty soon, your rock breaks off tiny pieces and those bigger chunks all over just don't look nice.

You do have to be mindful of what critters you purchase for a BB tank.

gwen perhaps you have to give me a crash curse on BB cus i am thinking on my new system coming up like that

Umm......lol Fond memories of suggestions the deeper the better.Sandbeds.


haha, larry you kill me, thats gold:up:

guys, theres also no reason you couldn't have a remote bed plumbed in final stage water before returning. best mix of both worlds without the inital hassles

Who ever said its either one or the other? I just redid my 55 which had a DSB and ill tell you that after a year the accumulation of detritus was far from desireable. However i think BB tanks are not only unsightly but are at a disadvantage. I just set up my 72g (this week actually) with a half inch sandbed. I have a tiger tail cucumber managing detritus along with some nerite snails and hermits and so far its all been good.

The key with a DSB is keeping the flow inside the tank high and having an amazing skimmer. A combo of the 2 will yeild a highly productive sandbed.

I prefer BB. Knowing that I can feed my tank anything and not have to worry about sand absorbing everything nook and cranny is wonderful. If you like to rearrange the furniture every now and then like I do, you don't have to worry about disturbing the bed. Also sand beds tend to get messy and keeping a fine sugar bed going is difficult. Pretty soon, your rock breaks off tiny pieces and those bigger chunks all over just don't look nice.

You do have to be mindful of what critters you purchase for a BB tank.Gwenn,

Feeding anything in a tank with a DSB is not a problem because the critters that keep the DSB alive need to be fed also and they will make short work of anything left over from the other creatures. Also...

I don't know what kind of rock you're keeping but I have yet to have rock that breaks off in tiny pieces messing up the DSB. If you or someone else has that problem it would be a simple matter of picking them out. And keeping a DSB "going" is the simplest of things in my humble opinion. Like BB tanks there is maintenance to do with a DSB. I've done both and prefer the benefits of Nitrate elimination the DSB provides. A sucessful reef tank requires a certain amount of regular maintenance whether BB or DSB. Personally, I like the looks of DSB and it's functionality over the BB style of reef.

Veriann, your absolutely correct my Aussie friend!

Just my opinion/2 cents worth.

Dick

what maintness does a DSB need. I have heard that you need sand stirrers and others say just leave it alone with no sifters.

I have some cerith snails that tend to bury themselves in the sand helping stir it. Also, when I do a water change I purposely disturb a different portion of the sand each time.

ok thanks.

OK, now I'm really confused ;) I've listened to the Podcasts on the related topics, and read the posts in this thread. The thread compares DSB to BB, but what about shallow sand beds? Just before finding the Podcasts and this site (6 wks ago) I set up a 210 gal with a 2 inch sand bed, and of course the tank is still going through it's paces and not ready for livestock. Patience is everything. It has 200 lbs of live rock already placed. If I had heard the Podcasts first, I would have set up a DSB, but now it would be difficult to convert. So let me get this straight: 1) A DSB handles nitrates well but eventually dumps toxins and causes "old tank syndrome" and crashes. Some people say you have to leave the DSB alone and not disturb it, others say disturb it in sections over time, and others say let a hurricane or Tsunami hit it every couple years (reference: Podcast), (2) BB tanks don't handle nitrates as well but don't crash based on toxin release and allow for more varied inhabitants, and (3) SSB (less than 4") don't have much in the way of anaerobic bacteria, so don't nitrify well. Some people say vacuum the sand periodically, and some say leave it alone and don't disturb it. So what's a curious reefer to do?
Here's what I'm thinking (please tell me if this makes no sense): leave the 210 gal with the SSB but don't vacuum it (I have a 100 gal refugium underneath also with a SSB, rocks, soon plants, etc); add a second refugium (I have a spare 40 gal sump which could be used for this) and set it up with a DSB. This way, I get the best of both worlds, a SSB in the display and a DSB in one of the refugia. Crazy? Brilliant? Ridiculous?
Hope this wasn't too long or too confusing. Thanks for reading. Please don't be too hard on me...
Jay

OK, now I'm really confused ;) I've listened to the Podcasts on the related topics, and read the posts in this thread. The thread compares DSB to BB, but what about shallow sand beds? Just before finding the Podcasts and this site (6 wks ago) I set up a 210 gal with a 2 inch sand bed, and of course the tank is still going through it's paces and not ready for livestock. Patience is everything. It has 200 lbs of live rock already placed. If I had heard the Podcasts first, I would have set up a DSB, but now it would be difficult to convert. So let me get this straight: 1) A DSB handles nitrates well but eventually dumps toxins and causes "old tank syndrome" and crashes. Some people say you have to leave the DSB alone and not disturb it, others say disturb it in sections over time, and others say let a hurricane or Tsunami hit it every couple years (reference: Podcast), (2) BB tanks don't handle nitrates as well but don't crash based on toxin release and allow for more varied inhabitants, and (3) SSB (less than 4") don't have much in the way of anaerobic bacteria, so don't nitrify well. Some people say vacuum the sand periodically, and some say leave it alone and don't disturb it. So what's a curious reefer to do?
Here's what I'm thinking (please tell me if this makes no sense): leave the 210 gal with the SSB but don't vacuum it (I have a 100 gal refugium underneath also with a SSB, rocks, soon plants, etc); add a second refugium (I have a spare 40 gal sump which could be used for this) and set it up with a DSB. This way, I get the best of both worlds, a SSB in the display and a DSB in one of the refugia. Crazy? Brilliant? Ridiculous?
Hope this wasn't too long or too confusing. Thanks for reading. Please don't be too hard on me...
Jay

you could always add a RDSB to your sump. i run one and am going to be adding another VERY soon.

RDSB = remote deep sand bed

Here is a thread about them: http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/filtration/4748-rdsb-bucket.html

good catch Carmie !! that is why Rob pays you the big bucks, huh ??!!

I'd PERSONALLY consider a SSB in the sand category in a discussion of DSB v. BB. Anyone else think this way???

I guess a SSB is more like a DSB than BB but there are major differences. I think that you get the most complete de-nitrification with a DSB, something a SSB or BB just can't do.

Thanks for the info and the liks to the related topics. I've decided to leave the 210 as a SSB, leave the large refugium as a SSB, and set up a second smaller refugium with a DSB. I figure if a 5 gal bucket is good enough to provide the denitrification, then a 40 gal sump converted to a DSB ref should do just fine.
Thanks again. This is a great community. Jay

not a problem Jay, glad we could help out.